Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
(OP)
I'm interested to know what the average turn-around time others in the truss industry have had for getting seals back from an engineer.
Maybe I just need to vent, or take a day off, but I'm working at a steel truss company and we send for seals from a company in another state.
Sometimes we have seals back in a few days, other times it's 2 weeks. I understand it depends on the difficulty of the job - the number of trusses, etc, as well as that company's workload, just as our output depends on similar factors. Some of our jobs can have 500 different trusses on them. Some of that is due to designs from us that don't take advantage of building symmetry, and I've tried to point out that if we take a little more care with the layout, we could reduce costs, time for sealing, etc. My words seem to fall on deaf ears, though. Optimization doesn't seem to be a buzzword here.
After working here less than 3 months, I am now very sympathetic to that company. They are short-handed, as most companies are nowadays. We send them a number of "repairs" and "redo" work in addition to submitting jobs. I'd say 75% of the redo stuff is because we missed details in the original submission and thankfully, someone caught them.
I'm a structural EIT and while working in a manufacturing setting I've often hear a lot of "bad mouthing" of engineers in general, but it's really excessive at this company. I'm the only "engineer" here (that is, anyone with a college engineering background) and several of the others here have said, in so many words, that they don't make mistakes, if there are problems on a job it's the detailer (outsourced), the EOR, the GC's fault, etc.
I've been trying to work to create a catalog of truss to truss connections, bearing connections, etc. so that they'll have something to build on with future jobs. When I started here, I had nothing to go by with respect to what's been done on past jobs, even though this company has been in business a relatively long time. I'm working with this other company on the engineering because I don't yet have my PE.
I'm getting a ton of pressure from the owner and the plant manager to "push" this company to get things back more quickly. I get jobs from the detailer/truss designer about 3-4 days before they need to go to the shop and they want connection details done in that amount of time. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record (can I still use that phrase? broken CD doesn't sound right) when I say that if I had stuff earlier in the design process, I'd have details back before they build. The owner usually comes back with "well, if you can't handle getting things back faster, then I'll have to call them..."
My view is that things here have been working one way for a decade or more...I can't change things overnight, and I've basically said as much to the owner. I would like to know, for my own peace of mind, how other companies work this sort of thing and how long it takes to get things back.
I worked for a truss company a few years ago, for a year, and during that time I never remember having trouble getting things back in a timely manner, or having so much trouble with non-standard connections, or just feeling quite so depressed at my job in general. OK, I'm done whining now... I've tried (tactfully) to say that we could do a little more to standardize things on our end to make the sealing process go more quickly--anyone have any suggestions for me?
Maybe I just need to vent, or take a day off, but I'm working at a steel truss company and we send for seals from a company in another state.
Sometimes we have seals back in a few days, other times it's 2 weeks. I understand it depends on the difficulty of the job - the number of trusses, etc, as well as that company's workload, just as our output depends on similar factors. Some of our jobs can have 500 different trusses on them. Some of that is due to designs from us that don't take advantage of building symmetry, and I've tried to point out that if we take a little more care with the layout, we could reduce costs, time for sealing, etc. My words seem to fall on deaf ears, though. Optimization doesn't seem to be a buzzword here.
After working here less than 3 months, I am now very sympathetic to that company. They are short-handed, as most companies are nowadays. We send them a number of "repairs" and "redo" work in addition to submitting jobs. I'd say 75% of the redo stuff is because we missed details in the original submission and thankfully, someone caught them.
I'm a structural EIT and while working in a manufacturing setting I've often hear a lot of "bad mouthing" of engineers in general, but it's really excessive at this company. I'm the only "engineer" here (that is, anyone with a college engineering background) and several of the others here have said, in so many words, that they don't make mistakes, if there are problems on a job it's the detailer (outsourced), the EOR, the GC's fault, etc.
I've been trying to work to create a catalog of truss to truss connections, bearing connections, etc. so that they'll have something to build on with future jobs. When I started here, I had nothing to go by with respect to what's been done on past jobs, even though this company has been in business a relatively long time. I'm working with this other company on the engineering because I don't yet have my PE.
I'm getting a ton of pressure from the owner and the plant manager to "push" this company to get things back more quickly. I get jobs from the detailer/truss designer about 3-4 days before they need to go to the shop and they want connection details done in that amount of time. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record (can I still use that phrase? broken CD doesn't sound right) when I say that if I had stuff earlier in the design process, I'd have details back before they build. The owner usually comes back with "well, if you can't handle getting things back faster, then I'll have to call them..."
My view is that things here have been working one way for a decade or more...I can't change things overnight, and I've basically said as much to the owner. I would like to know, for my own peace of mind, how other companies work this sort of thing and how long it takes to get things back.
I worked for a truss company a few years ago, for a year, and during that time I never remember having trouble getting things back in a timely manner, or having so much trouble with non-standard connections, or just feeling quite so depressed at my job in general. OK, I'm done whining now... I've tried (tactfully) to say that we could do a little more to standardize things on our end to make the sealing process go more quickly--anyone have any suggestions for me?





RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
woodengineer
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
Dik
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
I feel your pain. I have been on both sides of this argument. There are more than one engineering firm that design, review and seal strucural steel trusses. I've worked for one in the past. Maybe it is time for your firm to start looking for a "backup" engineering firm to split the work load.
The problem in the steel industry is usually the timeframe a salesman for the steel fab shop promises a turnaround time to the customer the detailers can't even finish their work in. Connection design is much more tedious than most people realize (look up seismic vertical bracing using the uniform force method) and may take longer to be properly designed.
An older engineer had a saying: "You only have 3 choices; safe, fast, or cheap, but you only get to choose 2. It can be safe and fast, but it won't be cheap; or safe and cheap, but it won't be fast; or fast and cheap, but it won't be safe!
In wood design, most companies do have a turnaround time of a day or two, but not usually in steel. Most wood truss steel plate company software (Alpine & MiTek are the largest) have very flexible software in analyzing wood trusses unlike for the steel industry. Of course, the wood guys do have to get creative with their repairs.
An interesting point you made is the redo work you are asking this engineering firm to do. There is nothing more aggrivating to an engineer (other than architects) :) than having to redo something multiple times, even if we are getting paid the second time around. I'm sure this is also more hourly billing your company is having to absorb also. It may be in your best interest to review your company's drawings before submitting to the engineering firm. Sometimes being thorough on the front end can save a lot of time on the back end.
I know it can be tough standing up for what is right, but remember that you are on your way to becoming a Professional Engineer. The stamp is not just about a paycheck, but about upholding the welfare of the public. Good luck in whatever you decide, but don't get discouraged. One of these days you may be the boss yelling at someone to speed things up also!
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
If you have more than one consultant then you get them to confirm when they can do it by. If they cant get it done then try the other consultant.
Then you dont have all your eggs in the one basket.
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
I think this company has just been pushed around and asked to re-do things a few too many times, and this is their way of controlling the situation now. Honestly, I can't blame them.
I've noticed my boss likes to give them ultimatums, "we need this today or else" kind of thing, but nothing happens when they don't make the imposed deadline. They know it's just smoke blowing, I guess, and it's not helping my credibility at all.
I am definitely seeing a good 2-week window between when I send things and when I get them back. And lately they've "misplaced" a few things and only send them once I ask how they are coming on them.
Hopefully we can work on that and get things happening a little faster. Maybe if they start to see less re-work that will help the situation.
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
The Minnesota regulations require that the design be prepared by or under the direct supervision of the PE. Direct supervision would not included employies of another firm.
Regulations do vary from state to state. In some states a PE can review the work done by another firm and certifiy that it complies with the state code.
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
The topic of who is responsible for properly specifying the loads applied is the real problem and has been discussed often on this site.
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?
It's pretty standard where I am, at least for the 2 truss places I've worked and the 3 suppliers I've dealt with, for us to do the design and them to seal the truss drawing. There are notes right on the sealed dwg that the seal indicates that the truss assembly shown meets the min. applicable design criteria for the loads, loading conditions, spans, etc.
I completely agree that is up to the designer to correctly interpret the plans and to translate that information to the individual component design for each truss. I am finding numerous mistakes on everything I work on here. Everything from someone changed the plys of a girder so connecting trusses are too short/too long to loading wrong on girders, spacing too small (and when I put on the correct spacing, the truss fails) and a boss who wants 5000# connections to be made with 2 or 3 screws.
My issues have grown since my original posting. Nearly every job we do goes back for some kind of repair detail. I'm sure the company we work with is sick and tired of hearing, on a daily basis, that we need something right away. I've seen over $30k in rework in the short time I've been here (started a few months ago).
I seem to be the scapegoat though, and I don't like being in that position. My boss gets an issue in from a customer and lets it sit for a week or so. Then I finally get it and it's a rush to get it taken care of. Then my name goes out as the contact here and I'm the recipient of some pretty nasty emails from customers as to why they don't yet have their solution to their problem. Bad language, threats, etc. I make sure not to ever give my last name... (I'm only half-joking.)
I quit a catalog company where I worked in college because they put me in customer service. I'm not cut out for this. I just wanted to be able to tell my boss, "yeah, the industry standard is a week for repair seals..." or whatever but it looks like most get them back after a day or two at most. Now I'd like to say "well, if every job didn't need a repair maybe we'd get them back more quickly". But I can't get fired just yet, need the paycheck...
RE: Average Turn-Around Time for Seals?