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Unhappy Client
6

Unhappy Client

Unhappy Client

(OP)
I recently received an email from an "unhappy" client.

Said "unhappy" client (U.C.) was commenting on a recent set of preliminary drawings which we presented to U.C. at a recent meeting and discussed many of the issues mention ed in the email.  Apparently, I did a very poor job of "educating my client."

There were comments such as "I have spoken to several contractors that have been in the business for years because this goes against everything we have ever experienced and they also find the footings not acceptable at all."  There is concern that the footings will "roll-over" in the ground.  And the list goes on.  He is also demanding that an evaluation of my proposed foundation system be reviewed by another PE.

The proposed system is a 30" wide trench on Geopiers.  I have used this type of system on other projects with great success and I know it has been used widely.  I am confident in my proposed design.

I am looking for opinions on an appropriate response to the email from U.C.  This is a delicate situation as the Architect on the project is my business partner.  How shall I handle this to at least keep their relationship intact and remain professional?  I can think of a lot of response that will do neither.

My fear is not that the review will be negative, but that the owner will not let this go.  I feel I am fighting a losing battle here.  Please help!

RE: Unhappy Client

You are.
It is U.C.'s project and his money. I would explain that this is a new technology, Has been widely utilized to reduce foundation costs and that you are cnfident of it and can provide outside review if desired. However, since U.C. seems to feel more comfortable with a more standard design, I would offer to provide such a design. How much you charge for such a design is up to you, but if it not too complicated, I would offer to do it for free. Sometimes spending a few bucks to get out with your skin intact is the best investment you can make.
  If I were your client, I would appreciate you going the other mile to  find me a way to save me some money, even if I didn't chose to do it. I don't think U.C. is like that. He does not understand it and does not want to understand it. He just wants it built with out a hassel.
So thats what he should get. We must rember we are not our clients

RE: Unhappy Client

It might help to point out some other contractors that have done this type of work for you and done well.

RE: Unhappy Client

Suggest to your client that the work is correct and if HE wants, he can seek a second opinion at HIS cost.  Also offer to do a conventional design for him, insisting that the present one is OK and that he pay for the redesign...

Having this sort of client before the project is out of the ground could be interesting... what if he doesn't like the anchor rods <G>...

Dik

RE: Unhappy Client

3
"I am looking for opinions on an appropriate response to the email from U.C."
You don't respond to an email.  Get your back-up, drawings from other projects, the names of people you did the work for and go see U. C.  This is not the time for email.

RE: Unhappy Client

Quote (Bubbaj):

Apparently, I did a very poor job of "educating my client."

And there is your problem.

You now find yourself in the untenable position of having to provide specific replies to vague questions.  Generally a losing battle.

Your best bet is:

Explain to UC that you understand his concern about the design, as it may be outside the experience of those he has consulted with.

Ask the UC to provide a list of specific TECHNICAL questions regarding his vague concerns. (Don't use the word "vague" when talking to UC.)

Prepare a brilliant presentation about the system, including your past projects, and projects that you were not involved in.  Explain The advantages of your proposed system, and any drawbacks as well.

Answer each of the UC's quesions.

Offer the requested independant review.

RE: Unhappy Client

BJC,
Star for that.  No pissed-off client was ever mollified by an e-mail.  If he opens it at all he'll put his own spin on every one of your words.  A battle of e-mails is only won by the attorney's when it really goes bad.

Go see him, a phone call isn't going to be enough either.

David

RE: Unhappy Client

BJC nailed it.  In person, followed by minutes on your letterhead.  Let me offer a recent example, not related by subject, but conceptually relavant:

I recently bid USD34k to do a stormwater task.  Client thought it was too high, threatened to shop it.  I said fine.  Client got a bid of USD7700, and asked my firm to "revisit" (ie, slash) our numbers.  I met with my bosses, explained the level of effort and liability inherent which dictated my price.  We held firm, and, I guess, the other firm will get the job...or, maybe not.

Bottom line: you did your best design to the best of your Professional judgement.  Stick to it, let "several contractors" do a "bettter" design if they so desire.  Then, let the Client hire "several contractors", if he/she desires.  Then, when their "better" design fails, maybe you'll bid to fix it...or, maybe not.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

RE: Unhappy Client

BubbaJ,
Maybe the problem was with your preliminary design.  I find that most consultants do a poor job of it because they include too much detail.  A preliminary design is supposed to show the proposed type, size, scope and location of the proposed construction work.  It is also helpful to include a brief write-up, or type study, stating the reasons for the selections made.  A client may have a very good reason for not wanting a certain type of construction, or the client may just need education.  

I do not know if this is what you did, but it is very aggrevating when a consultant slaps a bunch of previously used details on a set of preliminary design drawings instead of providing a clear plan for work.

So, perhaps your response should be that you will provide a type study for the foundation, complete with advantages and disadvantages of each alternative.  This is something you should have done anyway - it not on paper, in your head at least.  You can then have another PE look it over and concur or not.

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
I wasn't insinuating the conversation should continue via email, I am looking for options on how to proceed without further irritating U.C. and setting myself up for a claim.

Our insurance carrier has suggested that U.C. hire the engineer for the second opinion himself.  I am still unsure if this path with satiate him or not.

RE: Unhappy Client

BJC a star for you.

Another one for the sales engineering tips thread: every unhappy customer deserves a visit

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
We are going to see U.C. The "study" is a good idea. If he is uncomfortable with what I have proposed, I will offer to redesign, at no cost, the system he prefers even though it will result in substantially higher construction costs.  However, I believe this comes down to a trust issue, he either trusts my knowledge and experience to provide a sound engineered solution, or he doesn't.

Everything with this guy needs to be documented in writing, he has a habit of conveniently forgetting what has previously been discussed.  (Not that you shouldn't always do that.)  Even so, he likes to "beat a dead horse", so to speak, on many topics.

I want to note I did not just "slap on details" from another project and the client actually commented that there was not possibly enough detail to proceed, even though we told him they were preliminary drawings.  He is apparently showing them around like they are a "For Bid" set.

RE: Unhappy Client

It sounds like your client is the one who does not know the meaning of a preliminary design.

RE: Unhappy Client

BubbaJ,

UC sounds like a hard guy to deal with.  I hope when you bid any future work to him you're going to remember the time and frustration he has (and will again) cost you.

RE: Unhappy Client

I would not put much stock into what contractor's say. Namely, every contractor with a pickup truck and a dog always "knows" more about structural engineering than I ever will.  

The U.C. has lost trust in your professional opinion; it will be an uphill battle, most likely, to convince him of anything short of gravity is downwards.

I would respectfully suggest to get out of the project (per the terms of your contractual agreement) with as little pain and effort as possible.  Redoing the work with "traditional methods" pro-bono might be a good way to go.  I would also suggest perhaps declining the next project with U.C. unless you adjust your fee for the probable hassle.  I have a "high maintenance client" multiplier I'll apply sometimes. 2.0 is my personal upper bound and I will simply decline the work if it needs to be higher than that...



 

RE: Unhappy Client

Have you given the UC details of sub-contractors that carry out this type of work. An illustrated web site may be an excellent way to break him in to the possibilities.

If you are confident that you have done an economic design, then you can put you money where your mouth is. Offer to do an alternate conventional design and get the UC to request the builders get quotes for both options. If your option comes in more expensive he gets the additional footing design for free, if yours comes in cheaper he pays you for the additional design and your time spent discussing this.

If it pays off you will have regained his trust.

RE: Unhappy Client

BubbaJ,

When I find myself in similar situation to yours, sometimes, even if I am right, I am wrong.

If my client wants a second professional opinion, then I say that I whole heartily support that. I highly recommend that he get another opinion. I have done my job the best I can. I therefore can not do better. Maybe I am right. Maybe someone else has a better solution than I do. Either way, it is his perogative.

If my client wants me to redo my design, then I go back to my contract. If it is cost plus, I hunker down and have at it. If it is lump sum, then he needs to show where I have not met the contractual terms. Not where our preferences differ, but where the contractual terms have not been met. If I have met my contractual obligation, then my company's lawyer will speak with him. If I have not met my contractual obligation, then his company's lawyer will speak with ours I am sure - and I better get at it.

Once a client's trust in you is lost, it is pretty much going to be a lose-lose situation. The best way to start repairing it is takes his side, within the context of the contract.

Good luck.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Unhappy Client

Heres one site to forward on to your client which has explanitory notes.

http://www.farrellinc.com/geopier-nca.htm

Also worthy of note - the contractors are looking to maximise their profits, therefore they would want to avoid proprietary systems where they get less opportunity for markup. Their comments are biased towards their own profits and not necessarily towards the clients, you have no such bias.

If you can find a subtle way of stating this then it may be worthwhile.

RE: Unhappy Client

Ashereng is correct.  This is now a matter of whether your efforts to date have met your obligations.  If they have, do not expend more effort without more budget.  If they have not, take the hit.  Free redesign does NOT, from ywhat you've told us, seem to be warranted.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
Well, my Architect and I have a meeting with U.C. this afternoon.  I contacted our local Geopier rep.  I have a list of similar projects with references of reputable contractors who are experienced with the type of construction we are proposing.  

We have put together an outline of the issues we need to discuss.  We will see how things pan out.

On the issue of doing "free work", we will have to feel out the client on this one.  We are a new and small firm, we will have to weigh the "non-chargeable" rework against how much damage negative comments (true or not)from him could have on the potential for us to get other work in the community.  

And on the flipside, we don't want to let our clients walk all over us either.  That's why we started our own business.

Thank you all for your opinions and advice.

RE: Unhappy Client

Sounds like a good solution, are you taking along a brochure so that you can show them what a geopier is?

RE: Unhappy Client

Can you post a picture of a geopier?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
The meeting went well.  We did not get fired!  He said that was never his intention.  Anyway, we did a lot of educating.  It seemed to be enough for now.  We are going to be much more proactive with this client.

You can see a video on the geopier system at www.geopier.com

It's pretty amazing and has many uses.

Thanks again to all who posted.

RE: Unhappy Client

What's the difference between geopier and the old Franki pile, with the exception of the concrete?  Is this a patented application?  if so, what is patented?

Dik

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
A geopier is also commonly called a rammed aggregate pier.  Most generally a 30"dia hole is cored to a predetermined depth, aggregate is then added in lifts that will be approximately 12" thick after compaction, as the lifts are compacted lateral pressure is exerted on the adjacent soil and its densification results in significant allowable soil pressure increases.  In my area, typical native ASP is 1500-2500 psf.  That will ususally be increase to 4000-6000 psf with the geopier system.  Because the soil is densified, a standard spread footing or trench is used as opposed to a grade beam that spans between as with piles.

The system can really come in handy where native bearing pressures are very low or where someone has done something nasty like place uncompacted fill on your site.  It can be a great cost savings over the process of over-excavation and recompaction.

Hope this helps, you should really go to the website if you have a chance.

RE: Unhappy Client

It is a human trait for people not to say what their real problem is.
Clients especially. When they have a problem they may frame it as an objection or even as an attack on your credibility. They may say quite provocative things simply to get a response (engineers are logical, most everyone else is emotional).

The type of objections shown here are what could be called "Information Seeking Objections"

You were right first time with your comment that you needed to do some educating.

Quote:

"I have spoken to several contractors that have been in the business for years because this goes against everything we have ever experienced and they also find the footings not acceptable at all."
What does he really mean?
He is saying "Hey, this is new to me and I can't get anything useful from these other contractors. Show me you know what you are doing and why I should go along with you. I don't want to take risks and I don't want to be a guinea-pig."

He wants comfort. The more uncomfortable he is then the stronger he will show this and he will be quite aggressive. So when he says

Quote:

He is also demanding that an evaluation of my proposed foundation system be reviewed by another PE.
he is really saying "show me why I should trust you." He isn't saying you are incompetent, he is saying he doesn't have any experience of this approach, can't find anyone else who does and just wants you to justify the design.
The rest of what he says all goes to the same thing:
There is concern that the footings will "roll-over" in the ground.    
These are all information seeking objections. He wants to be sure that this is the right way to go and that he will be safe doing it.

Now, costs.
There are lot's of sayings that all run counter to what you are offering: "You get what you pay for." "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

Most people expect that better quality costs more money. This then leads to the corollary that if it costs less it isn't as good. Fundamentally he is prompted by this to be worried that what you are doing is cheaper because it is less effective. Maybe corners are being cut. Funnily enough if this system cost more you'd probably have fewer problems getting it accepted unquestioned.

The moral is that if ever a client doesn't trust you and doesn't feel comfortable doing business with you the first you will hear is when the contract goes to some other company. After that it is post-mortem time.

When a client comes to you this way you must not respond as if he were actually attacking your integrity, skill or knowledge. It is just that he needs "educating" and the more aggressive the approach the more critical the need for comfort.
Now the more deeply uncomfortable he is then the more strongly he will word the objection. You may find that if you respond to the objection, as stated, things can get quite hot so use a technique of softening. This is something taught to people doing public presentations. When someone makes an aggressive statement you listen, then restate it in softer terms and then answer your restatement.
If someone calls you a Liar you stand up and say "Mr. X doesn't believe me. I can see why that might be so let me explain it to you."

Any time anyone presents a situation to you in this way you have an opportunity to profit simply because they are presenting you with an opportunity to respond and explain.
In this case you establish yourself as a modern "leading edge" company because you know something that these old-fashioned companies don't.
If he believes you he has to believe that these other companies are out of touch and will cost him money. Money is always a winner. Note that if it is cheaper than the conventional way of doing things he can pay for more studies and still come out ahead doing it your way than doing it the conventional way.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Unhappy Client

BubbaJ... a Franki pile is installed in a similar fashion but uses concrete instead.  It, too, increases load capacity by laterally expanding and consolidating poor soils.  I've been to their website (thanks) and I was wondering what the distinction is and if the overall method is patented.

Dik

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
dik,

I didn't realize that a Franki pile was basically the same thing.  I did see on one of Geopiers projects they did use recycled concrete.  I can't remember why off hand, but, yes, it did the same thing.  Typically Geopier uses aggregate.  Sorry I don't know if they system is patented.  You could probably call your regional Geopier rep and I am sure he would be happy to tell you.

RE: Unhappy Client

(OP)
jmw,

Thank you for your response.  What you said was exactly true.  He did not understand and in this case, due to the special function of the project, money was not an issue.  I would agree he thought that cheaper could not be better.  

While we did not "attack" U.C. we did strongly state that we take our business very seriously, if we screw up, people can die.  

We did manage to remain calm, however, I did feel my face getting hot a few times, I am sure it was getting red.  It is hard to sit and listen to someone make skewed comments about your work and not blurt out "that's BS!"  But we did and our approach worked.

RE: Unhappy Client

Thanks for the link BubbaJ.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Unhappy Client

dik...not that many of us still around who remember Franki piles!

RE: Unhappy Client

Ron:  They still work and have their place and the patent has expired...

Dik

RE: Unhappy Client

BubbaJ,
you've given us a button and I've sewn a vest on it but I think you have some interesting times ahead of you. In some respects I envy you but I am sure you are going to come close to wishing you'd never heard of this client.

This sounds to me like a guy who has a recipe for success. He has a way of doing things that get him results. He is going to give you some very hard times and he will never apologise or even concede he has a need to apologise. He may or may not be knowledgeable about construction, you don't say, but he appears to have a method that means he doesn't need to be.

He will always have several bids in front of him. He will compare them for price. Any big variances will raise his suspicions. He then looks for technical differences and he then pits one constructor's knowledge against another's.
He challenges you as strongly as he can.

I would suggest that you were probably surprised that he would be so aggressive and maybe you hadn't considered that your technical judgement would be challenged nor that the solution you propose would be questioned. This isn't a criticism nor is it a bad thing and in this case you might think that if you had anticipated this response and prepared a pre-emptive presentation that this "slickness" might have been counter-productive with this client.
We all of us at some time or other find that what we accept needs to be explained and sometimes in very simple easy to understand terms.I know I often get caught out because what seems simple and basic to me meets with blank looks and sometimes takes forever to be understood.

I suspect that each and every meeting will follow the same pattern to some degree or other until the job is over and maybe even after. If you survive you may find the only recognition you get is the next contract.

Of course, you can be offended and upset by everything the client says and does or you can try and plan how you will manage it.

Every time he calls you a liar, you have to step back and think about what he says and why he says it and how you will respond. I think you have to recognise that this is simply his method. He does it because it is a sure way to discover the quality of the people he is dealing with and whether or not he can trust their judgement.

You may well find that you are going to be very much on your mettle and you may actually enjoy the experience. I can say that it is a real good feeling when you can meet with this sort of person and not win, but succeed.

I suspect that your client is far from unhappy. I bet he is enjoying every minute of it. You should too.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Unhappy Client

JMW... my life is too short to put up with this on an ongoing basis... I'd be sending him a bill for each meeting and wasted effort... He has to be educated that time and aggrivation is costly...

Dik

RE: Unhappy Client

jmw,

You industrial guys must have more time to spare than us structurals.

In structural engineering any politics will burn out your fees very quickly.

RE: Unhappy Client

Very interesting, I had a bit of trouble with the authority using a similar system only it was 4-5 feet of compacted aggregate in trenches below a continuous footing.

They required another engineer review the design.  He didn't want to assume any liability so my continuous footing became a grade beam capable of spaning 12 ft unsupported based on the loadings.  The steel and concrete were cheaper than fighting with the authority and delaying the project.

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