"Off" as nomenclature
"Off" as nomenclature
(OP)
Recently our quality engineer took exception to the use of the word "off" being used in a tech doc when ascribed to a quantity.
eg. M5 x 20 Hex head set screw (3 off)
Logic dictates "of" would be grammatically correct but I have a niggling feeling that Off is perfectly acceptable as nomenclature.
Our office is split on this but half are from an RAF background and the the other half industry. I won't tell you which way they're voting!
Can anyone advise?
eg. M5 x 20 Hex head set screw (3 off)
Logic dictates "of" would be grammatically correct but I have a niggling feeling that Off is perfectly acceptable as nomenclature.
Our office is split on this but half are from an RAF background and the the other half industry. I won't tell you which way they're voting!
Can anyone advise?





RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
This may be another of the great UK/US English divides
Kevin Hammond
Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
For example: 1 off the process / 1 off the machine, etc. when specifying how many pieces were needed to complete the assembly.
Bill
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
(although from WGJ's explanation it doesn't seem quite so stupid now but that doesn't excuse it when referring to 6m tall 4m diamter tanks - they don't just roll off the machine - at least not the ones we buy anyway!)
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
My last place was in the UK, with alot of the staff ex RAF or Navy.
My place actually prepared APs and BRs etc and as I recall 'off' was always the term used in these.
However working with the US, especially Raytheon & USAF, this caused massive confusion. Try explaining that '2 off' means the same as '2X', they just didn't get it.
Now I'm in the US so it's X's all around
Kchayfie, my old tech pubs guy would have had your guts for garters! I think a lot of the things I'm 'hardline' on are because he gave me such a hard time!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
a) A quality man questioned it,
b) I was pretty sure that was the convention anyway and was told this as an apprentice
and
c) A quality man questioned it!
Thanks everyone.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Bill
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
As an apprentice, I was dealing with air/shipborne stuff and my second job was in an aerospace manufacturer/contractor. Probably 30% MOD / 70% UK defence contractors.
Bill
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
says it all !
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Bill
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
What is wrong with "1X " and "2X ", etc.?
JHG
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Per drawoh, 1X, 2X, etc is per standard here in USA.
Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 02-10-07)
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Rod
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
1 off, 2 off etc is English Engineering speak (I'd guess to a Def Stan but couldn't be sure)
Here in America I wouldn't dream of going outside to 'Smoke a fag'. In the UK this is common practice.
Different situations different languages.
English and American English aren't the same. Heck both can vary with geographic location or even industry, age etc.
The same word in different situations can have completely different meanings.
From what gordyclarke states about his situation I would expect ‘off’ to be the correct terminology based on my experience. Certainly using ‘of’ would probably lead to ridicule and confusion!
Evelrod – your comment may say more about the state of British Industry than about language!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 02-10-07)
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
-Tony Staples
www.tscombustion.com
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
I worked 7 years doing structural steel shop drawings and never saw 2of, 2off or, 2 ea. We used 2X or 2 thus, American Bridge and Iron Standards.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
XXX does not have to be porn, it can be whiskey!
Or should that be, XXX does not have to be whiskey, it can be porn!
Or better yet, it could be Roman numerals!
JHG
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
My old American drafting book is that home, so I cannot refer to it quickly. I seem to recall a lot of drawings saything things like "6 PLACES", often shortened to "6 PLCS".
The ASME Y14.5M-1994 uses the 1X, 2X procedure. This makes it officially American, but that does not stop it from being a good internationalization standard, except in Australia, apparently.
JHG
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
For quantities 'off' is the correct term.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
In tech docs, contracts etc it was always 'off'.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
It's time for me to get off, pos myself on the couch, have 2X beers.
Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 02-10-07)
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
It's nice to be vindicated every once in a while.
“Here, QA chap. I thought you were supposed to know about enghineering?”
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
I always use 'qty 3' which is correct (it is, after all, a quantity) and unambiguous. Probably our US counterparts understand it too.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
In the days of pen and pencil drawings of sometimes dubious quality it was not uncommon to write "4 required" or "4 req" to reduce the chance of accidentally getting 40.
Jeff
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Stephen Argles
Land & Marine
www.landandmarine.com
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Also if I recall correctly contracts both from the MOD and other UK Defence contractors used off.
Used to confuse our American partners no end!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Someone in sales sent a message at work saying to add “3xMESP” to the sales order.
The receiver replied saying, we don’t have a part number 3xMESP.
Of course the person in sales originally sending the message meant add quantity 3 MESP to the sales order. We do have a part number MESP.
I was only CC but seriously considered sending a message saying:
“I think he meant 3 off MESP”
I thought better of it given who was on the distribution
Drawoh, I guess this means “X” isn’t even universally recognized in the US, although of course the sender did miss a space.
So much for ‘X‘ “being a good internationalization standard”
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
I cannot imagine that there is anyone involved in business who cannot understand the terminology "3 only", "3 off", or "3 each".
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
The old DOD-100 standard explicitly banned some characters from part numbers. I would assume that the newer standards ban them too.
I, O, Q, S, X and Z.
Most of these look like numbers or they look like each other. The character X has other uses, as discussed above.
JHG
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
I have noticed that my colleagues in our India office tend to write "3 Nos" which I've taken as an abbreviation for numbers.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
http://sw.fcsuper.com/index.php
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
However until you're used to the terminology it can be confusing. Point was in the situation the OP refers to "off" is probably the correct terminology and his Quality guy is apparently untrained/unqualified for the position.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English of, from Old English -- more at OF
1 a (1) : from a place or position <march off>; specifically : away from land <ship stood off to sea> (2) : at a distance in space or time <stood 10 paces off> <a long way off> b : from a course : ASIDE <turned off into a bypath>; specifically : away from the wind c : into an unconscious state <dozed off>
2 a : so as to be separated from support <rolled to the edge of the table and off> or close contact <blew the lid off> <the handle came off> b : so as to be divided <surface marked off into squares>
3 a : to a state of discontinuance or suspension <shut off an engine> b -- used as an intensifier <drink off a glass> <finish it off>
4 : in absence from or suspension of regular work or service <take time off for lunch>
5 : OFFSTAGE
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
You state it doesn't mean of, then give an etymology that refers to of for the more complete information. ??
Try looking up one-off.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
We have a winner.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Have you worked in the UK in the engineering/defence field?
If no then how are you qualified to definitively state that 'off' is wrong?
The meaning or implication of words can vary by situation, in fact vary so significantly that the definition from the typical 'summarized' dictionary doesn't appear to cover it.
Plus it would help if you were using the correct dictionary. If you read and understand the OP it is strongly implied that the location is UK.
As such the dictionary you reference is in the wrong language.
You want an English Dictionary not an American English Dictionary, the Oxford is probably a good choice. Plus you want the full version all 2 shelves worth (or however many it is now) not the concise or otherwise abridged version (which is usually what is available on-line).
In the situation the OP appears to be in 'off' is almost certainly correct.
I'm not sure of the Etymology of this particular usage but suspect it comes from the same source as 'one-off' as mentioned more than once above.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
"Used with a preceding numeral to represent a quantity in production or manufacture, or an item or number of items so produced. Usu. as one off: see ONE-OFF n. Cf. once-off adj. and n. s.v. ONCE adv. 24. "
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Which version of the Oxford was that in, I only had access to the web version of the compact which didnt' have it listed.
gordyclarke looks like you just need to go to the library or wherever and photocopy that page for your QA guy!
If your place is anything like mine was in the UK then blowing it up to A3 size or larger and pinning it to his door for all to see should be appropriate!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
UPDATE: QA Guy has now taken on the role of *gulp* Health & Safety bloke... I suppose it must be true what they say about success breeding success. Or something about breeding anyway.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
I got it from the full online Oxford dictionary... www.oed.com which unfortunately is subscription only.
We don't tend to have up to date dictionaries in our office as we find MS word spell check gives us PERFECT British English results every time!!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Worked with an Italian chap once, here in the UK, who kept using the wrong (American English) dictionary. We eventually gave him a Rogers Profanisaurus. Much more useful for the environment we were in!
h
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
Nobody saw the funny side when I laughed at our graduate who gleefully announced that he had been in an 'old claypit'!!
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
For purchasing, people don't usualy use "off".
Off is more related to machines such as mill, lath etc.
and off appears in drawings for machine operators and tool makers. off means taking off from the machine. haha.
I don't know. ?????
Forever Young
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
However, the stench of rotting equine flesh is filling the air and I don’t' think flogging it anymore will achieve much.
Off is apparently in the Oxford English dictionary in this usage, that should probably suffice to answer the OP.
RE: "Off" as nomenclature
KENAT: There's no sense in beating a dead horse. Unless it died from swallowing too many whoopee cushions -- then let the games begin! - Rob Tierney
www.ruminate.com/arcs/arcs04.htm
RE: "Off" as nomenclature