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MONKEY STUDY
9

MONKEY STUDY

MONKEY STUDY

(OP)
This is not purely engineering related. But I see a huge knowlege base, active in this forum. I'm betting one of you can collaborate this for me...

I recall hearing about a behavior study… with monkeys (or chimps or something). In which a group of monkeys were kept in a room with a banana (or some other reward) at the top of a rope. Then when the first monkey went up the rope for the treat – the other monkeys were hosed down with cold water (or some sort of negative stimuli). Soon they learned that going for the treat was bad & stopped going for it. And they would not let any other monkey go for it either. Then one of the monkeys was replaced by a new monkey. This monkey – having not learned the behavior – went for the treat & was “attacked” by the other monkeys. Soon, this new monkey learned not to go for the treat – but, of course, didn’t know why. Then another original monkey was replaced by a new monkey. The process repeated, this time with the first new monkey also “attacking” to keep the newest one off the rope. After the newest one learned not to climb for the treat, another new monkey replaced another original monkey. Eventually, all the original monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, who had never been hosed down for climbing for the treat, but they would still never climb for it. And they would “teach” any new monkey not to climb for the treat.

So you have an interesting result… A bunch of monkeys, who say (simplified):
WE DON’T DO IT THAT WAY. WE’VE NEVER DONE IT THAT WAY.
AND IF YOU TRY TO DO IT THAT WAY, WE WILL KICK YOUR BUTT.

Anybody else ever hear of this?  

My recollection (I’m sure) is not exact, but you should get the gist of the study. I’ve been trying to find a reference for it on the web, with no luck.


Windows XP / Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse 5000
SolidWorks 2007 SP1.0 / SpaceBall 5000
Lava Lamp
www.Tate3d.com

FAQ376

RE: MONKEY STUDY

3
Sounds familiar ...I think I may have worked for a couple of companies that supplied the monkeys.

cheers

RE: MONKEY STUDY


Some guys inside companies have done great curriculums answering that way;

“Because that's the way it's always been around here.”

cheers

luis

RE: MONKEY STUDY

One of the electricians where I work has a cartoon of this.  The paper is old and has been shown to many people over the years.  I don't know where the cartoon came from, but it states almost exactly what you stated above.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

You forget about the effect of the wandering animal (insert favourite type of large herd animal here for effect):

One day a drunken herdsman let an animal get loose.  It wandered away and broke a trail through some tall grass, bushes etc. until it found its way to a new pasture.  The herdsman sobered up, noticed the animal was missing, and found it by following the path it had broken- then led it back along the same path- despite the fact that the animal hadn't followed the direct route, who wants to break a new trail?  

When others went off in search of new pasture, they followed the trail the animal and drunken herdsman had broken.  Why break a new trail?

The trail became a path, then a cart-road, then a highway...

The moral of the story is:  never underestimate the willingness of people to follow the route of least resistance- even when it merley appears to be the route of least resistance!  Usually, that means saying no to innovation, because going the established route is not just less risky- it's EASIER.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

(OP)
Well... maybe it was never a "real" study afterall.
I'll have to tell my girlfriend, before she tells her boss.


Windows XP / Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse 5000
SolidWorks 2007 SP1.0 / SpaceBall 5000
Lava Lamp
www.Tate3d.com

FAQ376

RE: MONKEY STUDY

TateJ:  far easier to make up a study proving what you have already concluded to be true than it is to actually carry one out!  Who wants to deal with those foul-smelling monkeys anyway?!

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Oh, I am so glad I read this post.  It explains where I'm currently working perfectly.  

I thought I was working with donkeys, but it turns out they are monkeys...



RE: MONKEY STUDY

michfan ...

You were very close in thinking they were donkeys.
After prolonged exposure to the "We've always done it that way" mentality, the monkeys, when introduced to the workforce, do indeed turn into Stubborn Mules and ultimately, Complete Asses.

cheers

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Yes, I just didn't know if I could post the "a" word and not get deleted...

but that is surely what I am working with.  We are to the "complete" stage here.  Definitely.

I don't want to stick around here long enough to start braying, or scratching myself...

Oh my gosh, they do that here, too.  Yikes!

RE: MONKEY STUDY

I worked for a company where to change a process they had to wait a couple of years for the worker to retire.
He was one of the old style "man and boy" employees: "Oive werked 'ere man and boy for over forty years and me Da afore me"  (and his dad before him), and "what were good enough me Da is good enough for me; Oy don't hold with these new-fangled ideas."


JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: MONKEY STUDY

All the old monkeys who were evicted... I know where they are.
I call them 'colleagues'...
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: MONKEY STUDY

OK, maybe I'm missing something here.

There was a good reason the monkeys should leave the banana alone.  Just because the current troop of monkeys didn't know what that reason was does that mean they should take the risk just to test it?  What if taking the risk kills a monkey (maybe they replaced the water cannon with an AK47).  

Surely the point here should be to ensure effective knowledge management and knowledge transfer between the monkeys.  Maybe a lunch 'n' learn session with peanuts provided?

RE: MONKEY STUDY

This sounds like it must have been the management training program at one of my previous workplaces.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Ussuri, He missed the part that after a while they turned off the water so that if they had tried for the banana they wouldn't have got hosed.

I heard the story fairly recently, maybe on TV or Film but can't think where, it was Gorillas though not monkeys.

Reminds me of the story of the legacy requirement that the space shuttles boosters max dia be no more than a pair of horses rear ends.

Someone pass me a banana!

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Good point Ussuri.
It sounds to me like the monkeys should have hired a group of guinea pigs to test their thoery on. Then they could have determined if it was safe for them to try it. Then they could have taken the guinea pigs results and sat on them for a couple of years and then taken credit for the research themselves...

David

RE: MONKEY STUDY

I think Ussuri has a good point. I see, many times, most of us(including me) using the phrase "why reinvent the wheel". Though the degree of assertion varies from case to case.

David,

Excellent post.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Risk taking is what life is about. If you don't take risks you don't progress.

Conventional wisdom would have it that the fewer parts the better and why tinker with a good design, why re-invent the wheel?
Yet the wheel has been continuously re-invented or evolving ever since it was first invented.

Take something as simple as a pair of scissors. In the old days two forged and ground blades with the handles looped out of the blades would be riveted or screwed together by the pivot.
Today most scissors have two simple blades and moulded plastic handles; more parts but lower cost.

So there is never a good reason to leave the banana alone if you like bananas. What the monkeys couldn't do was figure out how to get the banana without getting hosed. Just what the experiment actually showed I couldn't say but as a metaphor for some management attitudes, a good one. Once you've had enough of being hosed down you get out of the cage and do your own thing.

But the point is that companies get stuck in their ways and absolutely refuse to re-develop a successful product. The usual outcome is that when one of the employees get fed up with banging his head against the wall he finally goes out and sets up his own company to make it his way. It is often the individual who pushes progress, not the original company.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: MONKEY STUDY

jmw,

Interesting look at the thread from a slightly more pragmatic point of view (a star for you)

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
 

RE: MONKEY STUDY

jmw, you hit nail on the head.  It is all about taking risks.  Which is something we do every day of our lives.

I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with the company philosophy of 'it aint broke dont fix it' approach, but I understand it.  But there are acceptable risks (commercial, safety) and unacceptable risks.  It all comes back to the 'risk assessment' which is everywhere these days.

The monkeys obviously did a risk assessment and identified it was not worth the reward available.

A separate idea is evolution of design, as opposed to redevelopment.  I would put your scissors in that category.  The basic design has not changed, the materials used to make it have.  IMHO.



RE: MONKEY STUDY


It's not nice to compare people (e.g. co-workers) to monkeys....


... it's very offensive to the poor monkeys.

cheers,

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Ah, "it ain't broke, so don't fix it." We can add that to our list of management speak. What it really means is that according to one aircraft manufacturer, 80% of failures were due to maintenance, not good or bad maintenance, just maintenance. (I can't think of the actual % but it was staggeringly high).
Now that isn't an excuse to stop maintenance, it is a reason to move away from routine maintenance of the "do it whether it needs doing or not" approach. I would guess, just guess, mind, that stopping maintenance on aircraft would probably have some undesirable results.
But for management this is a great excuse and, if you liike, a clue to their thinking.

Here is an example:
I wanted to make some changes to a product. I wanted to rationalise it and update it. It was an exceptionally good product with excellent sales.
What it would do is enable the company to exploit a lower cost (sales price) solution which should expand the range of applications.
Management were against this because of "product cross capture" that is, that all that would happen would be that a lower priced product would capture sales from a higher priced product that was doing very nicely.
In other words, the "if it ain't broke...." mentality. Of course, there is some logic to this and it is the sort of logic that appeals to management (they like any decision where they can say "no" and not invest money).
However, the fallacy is that they are not a monopoly supplier. Their competitors are busy doing everything they can to capture the share held by this product and, probably would succeed easily if their managers were not as bad as ours were.
Success is having the least worst set of managers.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: MONKEY STUDY

jmw, it's funny.  I've never heard management say 'if it aint broke don't fix it'.

That was always us engineers when they had us off on some pointless wild goose chase.

Maybe we should swap employerswinky smile

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Great post.  My favorite bunch of monkeys by far is the US auto industry.  Dr. Deming travels to Japan after WW II and introduces the concept of lean manufacturing to the Japanese manufactures after being frustrated with not being able to have his ideas adapted here in the states.  It takes over 30 years for the US auto industry to even start thinking about lean manufacturing and another 10 to start any type of implementation.  Fast-forward to today all of the major US auto manufactures are playing catch-up to the now dominant Japanese auto manufactures.  I guess Dr. Deming was a monkey that got so frustrated he decided to get away from the other monkeys and leave the cage.  The banana was to appealing to him.  

PS: I am sure there are much worse industries today other than  the US auto industy, it is just so easy to pick on the big three.  

Thanks TateJ you have made my day.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Another "monkey-type behavior" I have observed companies following is described in the following paragraph.

Some companies severely punish mistakes, but have little idea what their employees are really doing. Good employees are always trying to do something, fix problems, and move the company forward. However, when you are doing a lot more, your risk of eventually making a minor or major mistake increases. As a result, such employees eventually receive negative feedback or are fired! However, employees who do little to nothing run much less risk of making mistakes. Companies who follow such excessive method of addressing mistakes eventually fill their employee ranks with do-nothings. Additionally, when a do-something employee arrives, he is quickly identified as he stands out of the crowd!

I worked for such a company at one time - forced transfer just before a division was sold-off. They were trying to get a top employee to move them forward. It took me only a few weeks to realize what I have transfered into. I quickly left! I stood-out too much!

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Hmm,

I'm starting to think that I'm the monkey that just won't learn not to go for the bananas.

thread731-179040

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Comcokid--have you seen the Kurosawa movie Ikiru?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: MONKEY STUDY


Pick a fly rod, in the end of the fly rod, hang a banana, jump to the back of the monkey with your device and you will get a rapid way of being transported.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

Normally known as carrot and stick for donkeys.

However in this instance it would be banana & rod for monkeys.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

HgTX - No, Haven't seen it. I've only seen Yojimbo

Kurosawa movie Ikiruu - Kanji Watanabe is a longtime bureaucrat in a city office who, along with the rest of the office, spends his entire working life doing nothing...

Will have to put it on the list of movies to see.

RE: MONKEY STUDY

The problem here is that the monkeys don't think the same way like human beings do. If a monkey need a banana so desperately you do not know what he will do. He can sense your strategy even before you try to implement it. So watch out - here he comes, sometimes with his entire gang.

To find the reality you will have to visit some temples in India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia or Japan. They are not afraid of any human beings or machines or some dinky little toys - they can steal there food even from the gods.

They do not like this monkey business that the humans are worrying about. Their management skills and maneuverability surpasses the traditional human thought process.

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