Methanol fuel safety?
Methanol fuel safety?
(OP)
Hi guys,
I'm planning on using Methanol/Water injection in a Cummins 4BT diesel used for daily driving and possibly some long distance RV hauling. A friend gave me a plastic fuel cell out of his race car that meets NHRA specs. The most practical place to mount this 12 gallon tank is in the passenger compartment of the van.
What am I looking at on safety issues? It would be a 25/75 to possibly 50/50 methanol/water mix, water predominant. How hazardous is this dilute methanol? Would it be necessary to fabricate a metal enclosure for this tank?
I can't see anywhere else to mount the tank, unless possibly in the frame rails underneath. Suggestions?
Any commnets about water/meth injection in general are much appreciated as well. THANKS!
Starspangled
I'm planning on using Methanol/Water injection in a Cummins 4BT diesel used for daily driving and possibly some long distance RV hauling. A friend gave me a plastic fuel cell out of his race car that meets NHRA specs. The most practical place to mount this 12 gallon tank is in the passenger compartment of the van.
What am I looking at on safety issues? It would be a 25/75 to possibly 50/50 methanol/water mix, water predominant. How hazardous is this dilute methanol? Would it be necessary to fabricate a metal enclosure for this tank?
I can't see anywhere else to mount the tank, unless possibly in the frame rails underneath. Suggestions?
Any commnets about water/meth injection in general are much appreciated as well. THANKS!
Starspangled





RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Rod
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
The Dangers of methanol or methnol/blends are primarily as follows,
Fire-a I don't know where to find flash points at the moment for a blend,but highly flammable.
b Methanol burns with clear flames(reduced luminosity) extremely hard to manage fire.Flames are pratically invisible.
Toxicity a (fumes)200 ppm is the standard for atmospheric danger.Methanol is a neurotoxin in primates.
b (liquid) skin exposure methanol is corrosive and I believe capable of being absorbed through the skin.
My thoughts would be that I would not operate the vehicle with out external mounting .
Testing for calibration could be accomplished with a safe external stationary tank.
Safety Nazi? No, I don't believe in accidents.
Regards,Ed
ps 4bt in a van,what oem or conversion?
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
In regard to other: the engine is very low miles in excellent condition and could use the water/methanol injection to keep lower EGT's when towing and to provide slightly more power. There are other methods to accomplish this but overall cost eliminates them from serious consideration.
The engine is a conversion just completed, of a Cummins 4BT into a '67 Dodge D-100 Town Wagon, upgraded to approximately 1 ton ratings throughout, and with 5 speed NV4500 driving to Dana 60HD with 4.1 final. Everything but the frame and some body parts was upgraded and rebuilt for safety, efficiency and long term mechanical reliability. Good old truck....
Thanks for your assist!
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Methanol water mixtures are corrosive of many plastic, rubbers, steel and aluminium, so system failures are probable if correct materials are not used throughout the system.
As Rod says, why bother. So what if EGT is at OEM design level.
To truely boost diesel performance, use a turbocharger if the engine is not already turbocharged. Increasing power above OEM output always has some risk of engine damage.
Regards
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RE: Methanol fuel safety?
This is a 4BT so it does have a Holset H1C, which is quite a lot of turbo for the engine. I do have an upgrade compressor section that I'll be using and the actual need for further cooling hasn't been proven yet. Wanted to have some idea what I'm looking at. Under the circumstances explained in the replies I think I'll put water/meth on hold for a while and explore other avenues. Thanks!
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
We did a lengthy experiment involving several transit buses with methanol and 6V-92 Detroit Diesels about 12 years ago. What a pain. The fuel tanks and lines had to be stainless. The fuel had to be pumped by very special pumps and cooled as it recirculated. Any or all injectors would fail at any time. Most were DDEC but a couple were non-electronic. Ever seize an injector that is linked to the rest by a rack? Remote actuated air shut-off plates are a must have. The only ones the leasts bit happy were the tow companies.
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Regardless, from the flavor of the posts here I think it best to leave that stuff as a last option. I wanted to get your advice before talking myself into it! Seems best to see how it does stock when towing, then do the compressor stage upgrade, maybe turn some screws on the pump and open up the exhaust. I appreciate your instruction and advice.
By the way, being new to diesel I'm absolutely amazed by this little 3.9L as it has a much more useable and enjoyable stock power/torque curve than my previous 'built' 360! Thanks,
Starspangled
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
The discharge nozzle/s can be sited in the compressor inlet or adjacent to the ports on the manifold and be pressurised by a heavy duty screen wash pump which is activated by a pressure switch sensed by boost pressure.
atomisation is dependant on jet size and pump pressure either of which can be optimised to suit.
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Though I was given a very nice 12 gallon racing fuel cell I can't access filler cap with it mounted in frame under body. Looks like I have to spring for another no matter what. So, I'll either buy or fabricate an external tank and then do as you and others have suggested. Thanks!
Starspangled
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Hope you don't mind me saying
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
I have no doubt the little 3.9 Cummins will be sufficient in stock config. for most towing and driving needs. I will turn it up some simply because there's far more power to be had and still have a very reliable and long lasting engine. I think it's 105HP/285 torque stock and I'd like to see maybe 130-140HP/350-375 torque. With only H2O for cooling that's still conservative. An occassional mix of methanol would be just for fun.
I learn more and more about this 4BT daily so the plan changes some, but regardless I will stay well on the conservative side. I want it to last a very long time. Thanks for the further tip, r2800!
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Inject a highly atomized mixture (or just distilled water) at about 20% of your fuel mass (starting as engine load increases significantly) and tune the spark timing. Don't buy a pump that is rated at less than 125psi.
As far as corrosiveness goes: Plumb appropriate materials and maintain them as needed. Not a big deal, really. And no, you certainly do not need a metal tank for a 50/50 mixture or less.
Don't forget, by the way... the lower your EGTs are, the less energy your EGs are imparting to the turbine :)
HANDLING: Be CAREFUL. Pure methanol is toxic. Search for the MSDS sheet on it.
I don't mean this flippantly, but there are approximately 43,904 papers on this topic from the last 60 years. Hit up Google, search for "diesel water injection", and carefully select worthwhile material to read.
Have fun! This road is well-traveled by enthusiasts with excellent results over many years of use.
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Thanks for the tip on methanol toxicity as it is some nasty stuff! At 25%/75% meth-water it's apparently very safe, and 50%-50% is used by many for performance. I've located the proper pump and injector nozzles. For now it waits for other upgrades to be installed first, step by step. Thanks again!
Starspangled
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
You might want to include the proper fire extingusher in your vehicle and near your fueling/mixing area also.
Timing has an awful lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
MOST interesting on the methanol fibers. I have never seen a single mention of that before. This could explain why many guys complain, "Hey, I installed W/M and it seemed like it worked, but now it's gotten flaky..." For others they had relatively poor results from the start. I'll be sure to check orifice size and use a 60 micron filter, thanks much!
Personally I don't think ultra-small droplet size is too terribly critical if injection occurs early in the compressor outlet tract. By the time that gas mixture gets blown down the pipes, slammed through a couple of curves, and shoehorned into the actual intake manifold it should be pretty well mixed one way or another.
Safety is hugely important here, as I was once in the fire safety business, a very serious business, and have already been poisoned for life by toxic chemicals. Most carry a 2 1/2 lbs ABC extinguisher and call it good. I prefer a couple of 10lbs B/C, thanks! I want to look into an additive to colorize the flame in case of fire, though it seems doubtful a 50/50 mix with water would ever light?
Thanks for some great tips!
Starspangled
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Rod
RE: Methanol fuel safety?
Too bad that with a chemical exposure one often doesn't find out until too late! I had no idea that day as I worked that this was my last job and that I would end up 100% disabled for life with health problems I never dreamed of. So, word to the wise who might read this. READ THE LABEL AND READ THE MSDS.
But on a happier note, there's just nothing quite like the odor of combusted castor oil wafting in the breeze, LOVE IT! Always reminds me of old Alfa, Bristol, Lancia, Coventry, Maserati, Ferrari cars with big wire spoked wheels. Ah, well, progress [?].
Thanks,
Starspangled