Keeping Women in Engineering
Keeping Women in Engineering
(OP)
I admit this sounds like a SWE forum topic, but we were discussing at work how many women engineers go part-time, decide to stay home, or moved to peripheral roles at their companies (like marketing) after having kids. I looked at my own company's org chart and realized that ALL the female managers are in peripheral departments, and while there are 20% female mechanical engineers on the bottom half (close to what I remember having in school), there are 10% in the top half.
Does this sound like the typical make-up at other companies?
Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)
Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?
Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?
I am interested to hear the honest male perspective. Obviously no one at work would say negative things to my face!
Does this sound like the typical make-up at other companies?
Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)
Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?
Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?
I am interested to hear the honest male perspective. Obviously no one at work would say negative things to my face!





RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I suspect what you see is a normal attrition due to some women dropping out of work for awhile to pursue other activities. They may try to rejoin the working/engineering world some time later, or may lose interest and want to pursue something else. A friend of mine was out of the work world for over 20 years, then went back into engineering. Of course, she pretty much started at the bottom. But she has advanced and done very well since.
I see nothing wrong with the kids photos, etc. Although I have always kept a pretty lean (impersonal looking) looking office area myself.
Another consideration, I have heard it said that most engineers (male or female) end up working outside of engineering at some point in their career. So some of those 'peripheral' jobs may be filled by male educated as engineers too.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Everyone who gets onto the fast track to the boardroom gives up a lot of their life. Managers don't want to sponsor anyone onto that track who might end up reflecting poorly on the manager. Attitudes about women in engineering are finally coming out of the dark ages, but I don't think that the attitude towards someone with any non-company priority in their life will ever change. All the "work/life balance" tripe is simply the flavor of the week.
David
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I've learned so much in so little time, that I changed status overnight from Middle Engineer to Senior Engineer.
After one year under that woman, I was assigned to lead a 5,000,000 SF development project.
And she was so low key, soft spoken, but man, when she spoke, every one listened.
A buddy of mine who is an Electrical Engineer had the exact same experience.
Women are CUTOUT for Engineering Alright.
And I loved the fact that women Engineers can actually talk to you without using foul language, even when one makes mistakes.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
As noted above women can make good managers.
I think there are a few reasons why women fall out of engineering:
1. they like to have other women to talk to-not as likely in engineering.
2. It is less likely that the women is the sole bread winner - and therefore the necessity to earn a good salary is not part of the motivation.
3. I think many of us men, if we left the industry for 9 months (or so) and realised that we could be earning just as much money doing other things, would probably leave. As we usually stay working then we are not as open minded to leave.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Attitudes leading to the "mommy track" because of fears that women will engage in the above behaviours will improve when men start engaging in more of the above behaviours as well.
Hg
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RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
You got that right, and ever so slowly it is starting to change, but so very slowly. 20 years ago you never heard of a stay-at-home dad, now they're a demographic that is getting some marketing attention. When my kids were small I wouldn't have considered leaving work to do "kid stuff", now I see it happening some, but still not a lot. Hell, when my kids were little I never saw a single baby-changing table in a men's room, now they are the norm. Maybe it things continue to improve until men with kids are as apt to be put on the "mommy track" as a woman would be. I just can't see anyone with a healthy attitude towards child rearing staying on the so called "golden path".
David
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Yes. If anything 20% is very much on the high side where I've worked.
"Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)"
Not particularly. There's good women engineers, and bad ones, same as with men. Ditto managers. I don't have any idea what the proportions are.
"Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?"
Obviously
"Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?"
Do you think they are pushed, or do they walk? My impression is that they walk. That is they realise that there are better things to do than trying to knock 10c out of the manufacturing cost of a widget. Every day. For the rest of your life.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
My first company was very supportive of the women in the office, several women brought their infants to work. I think they realized the importance of making things work in order to keep the good engineers around. There was a high percentage of women in the office, but even so, only a couple were in management roles and none were owners.
A couple companies later, I worked for a man who I don't think felt that women belonged in the office. Between his horrid behaviour and the culture of the company in general, I stuck it out 18 months, got my PE and quit engineering entirely. 2 years later, I went back and I am very thankful to be in engineering again.
Being female can be very difficult. In my current job, I had to prove myself to the utility and streets departments before I had their respect. I'm still working on getting the respect of the contractors in town. I don't think a man in this position would have to work so hard to prove himself.
I don't think women are any less qualified for management positions or jobs based on sex. I think men and women bring different skills to the table which rounds out a team quite nicely. Yes, companies are losing out a lot by not working to retain employees in general, regardless of sex.
If I can't succeed in a company because I have personalized my office (within reason), I'll find another company. I have pictures of my labradors on my desk, heck if I have to work on a weekend, they come with me. I would expect no less from my employees or coworkers.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Among the women with whom I've worked, the hero/villain ratio seems about the same as for the men.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Maybe it's the countries I've worked in (Australia and the UK). I've been working as an engineer for 8 years and haven't seen much change in the profession.
Of my close female friends that trained as engineers and have had kids, not a single one is working as an engineer and only one works full-time (as a Tech College teacher). One other tried some consultant work from home, but found it difficult to keep up especially when number two arrived.
These women all have really young kids and are the primary carer, so time and energy are at a premium right now. I do think that the majority of them will find their way back to engineering when their kids are older. They all have a very technical and organised mind (much more so than I have!).
I think engineering is hard to fit around other priorities. If you work on projects, then clients are demanding, and time and resources are pre-defined and relatively inflexible. If you are in design then market forces demand 'we want it yesterday' type deadlines. I work in applications and it really needs someone to be in the office with all our resources and test gear. And anyone in maintenance really needs to be onsite and available at short notice.
I have yet to see an engineering position that can cater for family needs, especially when you are the primary carer. A lot of men have told me that they find it similar and some guys at my company have refused promotions or not applied because they'd rather be home for their wife and kids.
I accept the fact that I will need to think very creatively about how to do things in the future if I want to stay in engineering and have a family. I may just find it too hard as well. Heck, if anyone has some good ideas, let me know!!
I actually haven't met a female engineer over thirty that is without kids, so I don't know whether the high drop out rate I've seen is purely because of kids. Probably I just don't know enough people.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Most men don't cook very well, most women do the cooking at home. You could be tempted to think that women are "naturally" better at cooking than men, but surprise surpise: the vast majority of "chefs" are men!
Most women simply prefer spending time on raising children than pursuing a demanding career. And that's OK. Some women prefer the demanding career. That's OK too.
Why would one want to change that situation i.e. make pursuing a demanding career more attractive than spending time on raising children - would the children be thankful?
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
If we stop looking for inequality where there is none, it will be much easier to eliminate genuine acts of discrimination in the workplace.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Fast forward to Romeosperson's position. When she goes to the field and has to deal with a gruff, hard-nosed contractor, she must be more competent and knowledgeable than any male or she will be immediately dismissed. Not that any green engineer is looked at favorably in the field or on the shop floor, but a woman even less so it seems. I can say this because I've seen it first hand. I had a female engineer working with me on a project and we spent a week at a job site out of town. In meetings and out on site, when any question was asked or any comment made, it was directed to me and not her. Even though she had a heavy hand in the project it was as if she didn't exist. To her credit, she did pipe up when she needed to and eventually won them over, but had it been a male with me, this would not have happened.
I do believe that female engineers bring much to the table. I've worked with some good ones. I still think, however, that we're not quite there on the equality front.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
When I was in general civil engineering classes, it wasn't 50/50, but there were a fair number of women. When I specialized in the structural classes, there were only two women in a class of 50.
epoisses, the thing about inequality in numbers is that maybe it isn't occurring naturally. It used to be that women stayed home because they had to. Now, at least most of the time, they stay home because they choose to. Nice to have that choice. But there are probably a lot who stay home (or choose non-technical fields, or whatever) because they didn't think they really had a choice. It bears looking into.
Anyone who imagines there are no prejudices left (internal or external) that will affect people's choices needs to open their eyes. Just recently a woman a year younger than me was telling me horror stories about how some of her professors didn't believe women should be in engineering. This would have been in the late 1980s or early 1990s!
Hg
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RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
It makes it harder to get grades as good and thus to be competitive with your peers in the initial job market. Or it makes it harder to stay motivated to remain in the field.
Gender etc. may be irrelevant to one's innate ability to do things, but they are not irrelevant to how one is treated, and how one is treated definitely affects one's performance.
Not irrelevant.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I have had contractors totally ignore me as if I wasn't speaking. The next day, I could bring a gray haired co-worker (or any gray-haired man off the street) to stand next to me... and they would hear me.
I have also been asked by several contractors to speak to thier grand-daughters about engineering. I don't think the girls were as interested as thier grand-dad's thought they were, but we had a good time talking.
There are other contractors who refuse to let me walk the site without them by my side (I mean within 2-3 feet). They also like to tell me where to step (every step). At first I thought they just wanted to be there for my observation. I later found out that was not entirely the case. I just don't let it bother me.
I can tell you, if you are female... and especially if you are blessed to look younger than your age; it will take a while for your clients to have confidence in you. However, it doesn't take long to make good friends and clients out of them.
As far as the workplace goes... I definately don't look at the situation as a problem. This is exactly what women have been striving for. The freedom and flexibility to come and go from the workplace in any profession and to earn a fair salary. What more can you ask for?
The absences are probably more noticeable in the engineering field because there are fewer of us.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Best Regards,
Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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o
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RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
1 Got her MBA and now works in Europe for a multinational
2 Started working in finance right after school
3 Worked as an applications engineer for a well known electronics company, then joined her friend in finance
4 Works for a well known aerospace company doing FEA work
I think they did great for themselves (career wise and money wise), and better than most men in my class. The economy was not great when we graduated, this may have influenced their decisions, but they moved forward.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
To those who think there should be a balanced representation of the sexes, I'd ask: what if the female engineers just don't want to work in certain industries?
I'd be delighted to see a less male-dominated engineering department. Women tend to bring a different skillset to men over and above the plain engineering ability: they're typically better negotiators, usually better at multi-tasking, often more organised than their male opposite numbers. It would be great to get some of those skills into the company, but women just don't even apply. It isn't surprising: power is a field losing more engineers to retirement than it has entering it, and those who do graduate with a qualification in it are almost all male. The working environment simply doesn't appeal to most female engineers that I know: long and irregular hours, working outside in all weathers, work that is frequently of a physical nature, plants that are far from clean, a male-dominated contractor workforce with few social graces... none of my female engineer friends are remotely interested in joining such an industry. They make a good living in other areas: of my friends, they are in R&D (2), applications engineering (1), flight simulation (1), microelectronics (2), semiconductors (1), management (3). Four of them have kids and their employers offer them a level of flexibility that I don't think could be offered by my employer, although it's never been tested.
And finally, do female-dominated industries have similar discussions about how to attract or retain male employees?
Enough rambling - I need a coffee!
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
And yes, there is always discussion how to attract men to female-dominated industries. Schools love to talk about how to get male elementary teachers, especially ones with clean background checks.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Nice to know there are a few ladies who work in the power industry. How do you find it as a working environment? Why do you think so few women even apply for a position, let alone take a job in our industry?
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
ht
-Christine
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I have a female friend that works as a speech therapist (a field heavily dominated by women). I asked her about it and she said she can't recall anyone ever mentioning trying to attract more men to the occupation.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
After reading through this post and others like it last week, I made an extra special effort to observe the kids, coaches, and other volunteers there.
I observed that there were approximately 50/50 male and females represented. Even though mostly men were grading the morning tests, I never once heard anything in the way of even the slightest comment about a girl who might have been doing better than the guys. (the morning tests are graded in a separate room from the competitors) When it got to the be the top 10 individuals going at it for the "lightning round" there were again about half and half. I noticed that when a boy got a question correct everyone cheered very enthusiastically. Then when a girl got a question correct everyone cheered very enthusiastically. I could not detect any difference at all in the level of applause. I looked around the large room (I was in front so I was able to see the expressions on everyone's faces) and I didn't see any faces or other body language from girls or boys, women or men, that would suggest that anyone was disappointed that a boy beat a girl on a particular question, or a girl beat a boy.
This behavior is exactly the same that I've observed in years past for this event, and also for the annual regional Science Olympiad event that I've volunteered for since 2000.
My conclusion, based on my keen people watching skills over the course of many years, is that girls/women are not held back by anyone.
If there is any chance at all that a young girl is indeed being held back in some way, it might be because there are older women telling them to expect to be held back. The power of suggestion can dominate someone's thought process in many different ways throughout life.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Its the unspoken truth....talented male engineers start to worry about their company/career image when surrounded by too many female engineers, especially if the female engineers are involved in management.
Sadly, its a Catch-22 for the women. Even if a woman is a very talented engineer, and she is promoted to a management position....many of "the guys" will start looking for work elsewhere.
So what happens? Companies have to weight the risk of loosing a few male engineers against the potential benefit of promoting a very talented engineer (who just happens to be female). Its a Catch-22 for companies also.
I believe, in time, this trend will change.
In my next life...I'm certainly going to choose a career with more women :)
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
"talented male engineers start to worry about their company/career image when surrounded by too many female engineers, especially if the female engineers are involved in management."
Why?
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Your bigotry is showing.
-b
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I have however noticed that some recent research suggests that women, when in a position of power, tend to guard it from other women trying to climb to that position of power or somewhere near it. Maybe "The man" (who's trying to hold everyone down) isn't even really a man at all in some cases. Hmmmmmm...
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Re talented male engineers leaving....
Wrong my friend. What you're talking about ain't nothing but insecurity (afraid that's no fault of the women) but something us men have created for ourselves. Any talented engineer should be able to fight his own corner, not matter what gender he faces.
Kevin Hammond
Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
It can be incredibly lonely for women engineers when they are the only female engineer in the office. I've had this before and sometimes even if there is one other female engineer, chances are that you sometimes won't get along.
I've so very nearly chucked in my engineering career before, and every single time I've ended up sticking around because another female engineer joined the office and we've gotten along really well, or I've made friends with another female engineer outside of my workplace who is going through a similar loneliness.
I wish it didn't make such a difference and that I could tough it out more. In my late teens, I got along better with the guys than the girls. I got along well with people of all sorts of backgrounds and made friends quite easily. I liked getting my hands dirty and liked technical challenges. The career choice made a lot of sense.
Now I start to query my career choice and wonder why I should continue to tough it out on my own. Instead of getting used to the isolation, the cumulative loneliness has left me feeling less tough and less sure of myself. It's especially difficult when other women have careers that give them companionship and emotional support as well as being better rewarded financially and having better job flexibility. I've come so close to wanting to retrain as an accountant. My husband tells me I'd be bored out of my brain in half an hour. He's right of course..
For some reason my enjoyment at work and having other female engineer friends around me gets more important the further into my career I get. It also gets much harder to find and maintain these friendships.
I know I am probably thinking 'grass is greener' when it comes to having more women in my career at my workplace. I've heard a few horror stories of the nastiness that can go on in other female dominated careers. I'm also sure it's not just women that can feel isolated in the workforce. I just wanted to point out one of the big issues I've had that has nearly resulted in me changing my career.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Your OP is an issue that is also a concern to me personally. No, I am not an employer, but I do have a daughter.
When I read your OP, I re-worded your question a little bit to "How many engineers go part-time, decide to stay home, or moved to peripheral roles at their companies (like marketing) after having kids, if they are the primary care giver?"
I think that the problem with retaining women who are the primary care giver would be the same as retaining men who are the primary care giver. One example is a male colleague who decided to stay home (on paternity leave) after his baby was born (his wife makes significantly more). When he came back, he was moved from a lead position, and onto a lesser responsibility role on a smaller visibility project. Why? Because, as he said, his primary concern is the baby (or, put another way, his project no longer comes first). There are lots of other engineers who still want to climb the corporate ladder, and I think it is only right that they get the plum roles because they are willing to make the sacrifices to get it.
In this respect, the women who go part time are in pretty much the same situation as men.
The big difference is that more women are primary care givers than men - which I think leads to the generalization/sterotype that women with kids move to the periphery. I think if more men were to give up their career for the family, then the stereotype would start to disappear.
Having said all of this, I am aware that inequalities do exist in many engineering shops - as evidenced by the posting of others. There are many men, and women too, who have outdated sterotypes of women engineers (unfortunate but true). Hopefully, as society changes their views on the care giver's role in families, they will also change their views on women in engineering.
Oh, one last thing. There are "zero" women in engineering, and "zero" women in project management in my current company at this time.
Hope my perspective helps.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
Let's assume that male and female engineers are equal in the odds of being a "good" engineer. By that I mean "management material". Let say that those odds are 1 in 10.
This means that 1 in 10 female engineers are promoted, and 1 in 10 male engineers are promoted. Each promotion is mutually exclusive.
Roll the dice and do the math. If women were to still make up 20% of those promoted....then, either there are a great deal of slacker male engineers...or else women have some kind of advantage.
By the way...I'll not take offense to the bigot comment. I was only stating a very real perception, and in no way was expressing my personal views or opinions. For the record...my boss is female.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I think you've got it backwards. The OP is saying that 2 in 10 engineers are women at his company and only 1 in 10 of engineering managers are women.
I personally think the reason there's not more women in management is the baby gap. Women with children often take a break from working for a few years to have and raise children. When they return to the workforce it's often in a part-time or less responsible position. It's not just engineering, even female dominated fields have disproportionately male managers.
The danger is to over-generalize. Not all women are planning on taking time off for kids, while some men are perfectly willing to go on daddy-duty.
I'll take your word on it that you're more tolerant than your post made it sound. Be advised, most statements starting with "my friends think this..." are usually interpereted to reflect the poster's own thoughts.
-b
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I've always wondered what it would be like to send out two identical, average, resumes...one with a women's name and one with a man's name at the top.
By the way, discrimination is one of the reasons women stay away from studying engineering. Duh! Who would want a life full of stress based upon irrational reasoning? Or futilely struggle to fit in?
Oh, I'm not a woman by the way. I am human.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
I have been in the 'business' (piping design engineering) since 1973 and have seen LOTS of changes. I am exceedingly thankful for all those women that have gone before me and made the path a little easier to tread. I was a single mother and had my hands full trying to survive; I have seen the good and the bad. Believe me when I say that I have paid my dues. I can only hope that my adventures have made it a little easier for those coming behind me.
RE: Keeping Women in Engineering
- my best flight student was a woman, mother of two sons.
- my best co-op was a young lady from Kettering Inst., who was a credit to me, the company, and Kettering.
- my daughter made more money on her first engineering job than I was making at the time. She's been doing six figures for a long time.