Gapless Rings-Opinions
Gapless Rings-Opinions
(OP)
I tried these in a engine I built for racing. Leakdown was excellent,less than 2%.. But, at the time I had no dyno,hence no way to know (other than leakdown) if they were truly beneficial. Was it money wasted or well spent. I normally use a traditional steel alloy/moly top ring , a ferrox coated iron second.Have had very good luck with these also,but always looking for an edge..I am thinking about going with a Total Seal gapless design again,on a mountain motor /nitrous engine. Any experiences out there with these rings?? Street car,race,motorcycle??? Any replies much appreciated........ Craig
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
see a "Gapless-Ring Setup" do as good as a normal race ring setup !
i've had a fair number of gapless ring engines on my dyno ,
they look really good on a static leakdown test , but under full load they have a little more blowby CFM than a regular set .
All the engine builders around here who have tried them
in NHRA Stock or Super Stock have told me they slow down with them .
The only personal-experience with them i had was with a BBC 557 cid when i put the gapless 2nd rings in , the car lost a tenth ...when i put back a new set of Speed Pro plasma moly rings, the car picked up a tenth back to where it was !
What made think it was the rings was
1-it slowed down after , when i thought it should have ran faster
2-just before , thru the MPH-lights , a little smoke top end out of headers ....making me think gas pressure was getting trapped between 2nd gapless ring and top ring, unseating top rings ?????
3-went i went back to SP plasma moly , the ET came back
Never did call Total Seal to see what they thought
but did ask engine builders around here ..they basically told me the same stories of losing ET .
I think they are a very good ring setup for methanol dirt track engines , but not drag racing so far from what i've seen !
--------------------------------------
Craig...you saw 2 % leakage on a static leakdown tester
..did you then put the engine full-throttle full-load
on the dyno , and measure CFM blowby ???
if you can , could you test this and post results ??
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
--Craig
-----------------------------------
Craig, years ago , i think around 1984 to 1986 or so,
Buick gave us a rental car , eats , motel, spending money
to take a trip to Jim Ruggles shop for 2 day question/answer with Ruggles on Buick V6 ...Buick was looking for DragRacer team to run the Buick V6 in NHRA Comp
Elim . From what i remember he was in the process of moving by the airport there in a new building,
he had 2 dynos setup , but only one working at the time, and a SuperFlow SF-600 ? bench at one end of the shop .
Question - were you working there at that time ???
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
thus more friction , heat , and horse power, to ensure even pressure on the ring you need to gas port the piston.
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
any experiences with 2-ring piston Comp or Super Stock engines ?
from what i've seen at the track and on my dyno
with a couple of Super Stock racers with Chevy 350 and Chrysler 360 experimenting with 2 ring -VS- 3 ring pistons,
there wasn't hardly any difference in power .
the 3-ring pistons ran drier and maybe just a little edge over the 2-ring ->(1 comp and 1-oil ring) setup ....
and that was relatively at slower rpm rates and
lower rpm power bands ..where there is more time for leakage and blowby to occur .
the 3-ring SS seems to have one out in SS ??
then you look at some Comp engines that
run from 7500 to 10500 rpm ranges and accelerate
at faster rpm/sec ...with less time for leakage
and the 2-ring pistons work pretty good , although builders still use 3-ring pistons ....they are still pretty close as well !
So if a 2-ring piston works just about as good as a 3 ring piston ...going to a gapless 2nd ring seems not to be worth anything basing it off the 2-ring piston's success
maybe the Gapless "top ring" will finally be worth some HP ??
please post results if you try them...and i'll try and build a dyno test engine to try a set myself .
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
the slider assy (including conrods, etc) accounts for about 33% to 45% of total engine friction. Of this amount, probably about 60% is attributable to the rings (with the piston skirt being the next largest contributor). So by completely eliminating the rings (without increasing friction elsewhere) you could get rid of a max of about 27% of FMEP. If FMEP was 1/3 as high as BMEP (and I'm more inclined to say it's 1/8 to 1/10), you'd get a 9% improvement in power by deleting the rings (again, assuming you didn't add friction elsewhere, and that the engine still ran)
Another thing to consider is that if you could give a ring a "frictionless" surface, you'd likely only get rid of 15% to 25% of that ring's friction, as the majority of the power loss is due to pushing oil around. If you could put a frictionless coating on the ring surface, and then run with the liner completely dry, you'd make a much bigger improvement.
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
Check it out !!
Remember that these are companies advertizing in ND :)
Anyways, interesting to see the efforts they are taking to get the ring surfaces smooth a totally flat on the bottom of piston grooves !!
Sort of what i posted last week or so !!!
i've been ordering pistons from mostly BME since the early 1980's with zero fit or snug fit .043" grooves that forced me to hand lap the bottoms of my Speed Pro rings sets
to get ring surfaces perfectly flat to seal on bottom of grooves ,,,in the process...very tight vertical clearance ,,,but yet extremely free ring rotation ...no where to go , can't float and then use gasport holes to get pressure behind rings to seal !
Been tricking oil ring expanders with a custom set of channel lock pliers i custom ground to fit inside the oil ring gaps ..use a scale and "pull" the oil ring/piston/rod assembly in bore to see lbs.
the Hasting's oil ring seems to control the oil as good as the Speed Pro oil ring, but the Hastings does it with less drag .
Any opinions ??????????
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
in very high CR engines, it hurts HP , or low CR with borderline octane ?
you can sometimes see oil being squeezed out gas port holes
...this effect led me to notice CounterClockwise and Clockwise swirl effects oil trails out of gasport holes in 1975-76 in Chevy SBC ,,,way before i had a swirl meter
..i could see swirl effects ....the old # 492 , #186, # 462 # 461 , and # 292 Chevy Turbo heads back then had tons of swirl :)
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
the 1st set , the boat slowed down to 8.80's from previous 8.60's in quarter mile
after talking to Total Seal , he made rehoned block another new set , came to the dyno.... 5 to 8 cfm blowby
Craig, the builder says he finish honing block w/plates to 400 grit , and not too happy with the the Total Seal ring in the 1st position . When the boat ran 8.60's it had Total Seal 2nd groove rings only with Speed Pro other rings . Now after today's dyno session,
he thinks he might have gone faster with just a normal set of Speed Pro rings... so hes coming back to dyno with just Speed Pro rings or normal set of Childs Albert rings to see differences .
Feb 23, 2002
598 Chevy BBC
Dart Tunnel Ram intake
2-Holley stock 1150 cfm carbs w/ 89/89 jets
VP C-16 + C-12 gas Dart 360 alum 2.300/1.880
14:1 CR
Fluid Dampner
Hamburger steel 8 1/4 depth
Castrol 10/40
.026 lash across
Comp Cams roller 280/288 .790/.775
34 deg BTDC
Bowtie Tall-Deck Block
----------------------
change=38 from 34
825.7 HP at 6500 RPM
778.7 TQ at 5200 RPM 600 RPM/SEC
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
you start asking about Total seal Top-Rings
and National Dragster prints an article on this
the very same week !!! ...and then an engine builder
brings a BBC Chevy to dyno the very same rings
your asking about !!!
i didn't know he had the Total Seal top ring
in the engine till he told me how hard it
was to turn the engine over with his starter .
Without the plugs in, the engine was a free as any
other engine .
we put my Tilton Super Starter on the engine,
and it handeled the cranking back to almost normal .
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
---------------------------------------------
Craig , what you just posted is exactly my same thoughts !!!
i also find it very strange/perplexing at why the Total Seal Gapless ring setup in either the 2nd or Top groove would not be miles ahead BETTER than anything else out there !!!!! i'm definetly going to start researching this
on paper ...it looks GREAT !!!
but about the BEST results i seen so far is they are
at best no better than conventional rings .
i'll have to start calling people i know and learning more on this whats going on !!
will post some info if its worthy later on .
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
i file-fit the Compression Rings' gaps ,
but i only file one side (usually side with dot)
leaving the other side bone-stock with its dark coating
..as i'm file-fitting, i then use the unfiled side
to "square" up against to make sure i'm filing the other side parallel ....and if you want to experiment with seeing how much gap you can run with a certain HP-output with a ring a certain distance down ....you can view each gap side
with a 10x lighted-viewer and look for signs of ring butting
which will show up easily on the unfiled side..this is all after you've actually ran the engine under full load and then have taken it apart for study.
also you should very lightly deburr the side you filed
and the other side with a small handheld stone..like the kind you would use to sharpen a pocket knife ...
deburring gap edges reduce cylinder wall scratches
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
We didn't find this out until after the engine was pulled down for a rebuild some 100 hours later!!! The completed bottom end would turn over at 11 inch/lbs.
Sometimes I just wonder about the effort I go to in building the 'perfect' engine when I run into an anomoly such as this.
Rod
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
============================================
Rod, you still have to keep on trying....it will pay off in the long run !!!
Rod...you don't "see" all the other times things would have really gone bad if you wouldn't have taken the time to do them right ! its harder to fail a part if you assemble it correctly.
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
as posted here. Great cranking pressure & great on
a leak down test, but more blowby under operation.
I believe this is because air behind the ring needs
to breathe, especialy with tight groove clearances.
I've stoped gaping rings to the minimum, and found
some power there!
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
Rod
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
David
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
i like to see static leakage at below 6 percent on
the engine stand and 2 to 4.5 CFM on the Blowby
..kind of like to have it both ways !!!
since NOS has made a big-impact on racing in last decade
i'm seeing racers coming to dyno with .025" to .027" ring end gaps and still getting 4 to 6 CFM Blowby levels
gaps that are .025" to .027" don't give you great "STATIC" leakdown numbers , but seem to be OK under full load , acceleration dyno testing, enough to get you 4 to
6 CFM blowby if the rest of the parts (Block,Pistons,etc)
are machined/assembled correctly
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
David
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
my typing isn't so great either ?
Larry Meaux (meauxracing@mindspring.com)
Meaux Racing Heads
MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
http://www.mindspring.com/~meauxracing/
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
Shaun Tiede ULTRADYNE Arlington,TX
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
John Woodward
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
No matter---to the point of "gapless 2nd rings". As stated last year(posts above)---don't like them. They cause problems with flutter that NEVER existed and lots of blowby at certain rpm. I went back to my old Deves with their wide gaps and all was ok once again. If they work for you, great but, I did not like the results I got.
Rod
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
Shaun Tiede
Shaun TiedeULTRADYNE Arl,TX(stiede@ev1.net)
RE: Gapless Rings-Opinions
I'll leave the V8 stuff to y'all and I'll stick to the DOHC and little four bangers. Their fast enough for me.
Rod
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