Employees stamping drawings
Employees stamping drawings
(OP)
I know it's common enough, but what do you all think of employees stamping/sealing drawings? It bothers me, especially in construcion companies where cutting corners puts money directly in the owner's pocket. You got to do what's right if you're the EOR, but you got follow orders if you want to keep your job.





RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
I would say probably the majority of drawings sealed are sealed by employees of one kind or another. That's not a problem in itself. You have the same issues if an owner does its own engineering, but that's pretty common, too. You have the same types of concerns with a consultant- they're still getting paid by somebody.
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
Why on earth shouldn't it be common?? If you did the work, you stamp it. You only need someone else stamping your work if you're not licensed yourself--and then the person doing the stamping needs to have had direct supervision of the process, not simply be your boss. And if your boss needs to be looking over your shoulder for the whole design process as if you were an EIT instead of a P.E. just so they can seal it later, why should they bother hiring a P.E.? A P.E. license isn't about being self-employed, it's about responsibility for and applying engineering prinicples.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Employees stamping drawings
The point of hiring licenced professionals that don't stamp is that they do the work of licenced professionals, not the work of EITs. Everything ought to be checked, anyway, and the system where the stamper checks and makes final judgement calls insures quality control.
I don't think it's an ethical issue in itself, but it leads to ethical conflicts. If you go in eyes open, knowing you might have to quit rather than stamp something iffy, knowing you won't have the power to turn down a client you think is likely to sue, well fine. But how many freshly licensed engineers think about that when they look for a job?
RE: Employees stamping drawings
Hmm, maybe because you're not a licensed engineer in that particular field, and that's why you hire engineers to be your employees? Or maybe you have 20 engineers working for you and there's just no way you personally could give all those jobs the review you'd need to give them to be able to legally AND ETHICALLY stamp them?
The notion that someone should be checking someone else's work simply because of their relative positions in a management hierarchy just doesn't make sense. It might give the illusion of making sense when one considers a very small private business with a P.E. owner and a handful of P.E. employees, but quickly turns ridiculous when you start to consider larger businesses and corporations.
Quality control is a separate issue, and a good quality control system does NOT necessarily mean the checker/checkee relationship is identical to, or even in the same direction as, the manager/employee relationship.
Yes, new engineers should be aware that they might have an unethical or just plain ignorant boss who might ask them to do the wrong thing, and they might lose their job to keep their ethics (and possibly their license). Sad but true. That's no reason to start suggesting that only those who have ownership in the company should be sealing drawings!
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Employees stamping drawings
When management interferes, then there may, or may not, be something to deal with. What you're indicating is appears to be a difference of opinion, as opposed to a outright ethics breach. Unless there is quantifiable and documenttary evidence that your manageer's direction is unsafe, there is no ethical breach, per se.
Sometimes, this can occur because the bidder and the executor are different people, with different assumptions.
Otherwise, this is simply a problem you'll need to deal with. You can be ultraconservative, hence, unltraexpensive, and unemployed, or, you can be reasonably conservative, and gainfully employed.
But, unless you have specific proof of insufficient design, based on industry standards, then you're simply SOL.
TTFN
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
I know this has been tested many times in history. Take Jack Gilliam for instance. I believe he lost his firm, his license, etc. after the Hyatt Regency collapse in Kansas City in the 70's, but the engineers under him were not affected other than loosing their jobs when the firm shut down.
I freely admit here that I'm not an attorney.
RE: Employees stamping drawings
Civil liability? Yes. Whatever lawyers can convince a jury about liability is what matters in civil cases. Fortunately, the target is usually someone with deep pockets.
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RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
It is common for engineers in larger companies to sign/seal their work and, with appropriate review, that of subordinates. Your description sounds like a disconnect in the senior review process.
The way it "should" work is that if you do the work and you are a PE, you should have an internal QA program that would then send that work through a review process. That review process should cause you to "defend" your work. The final decision rests in an agreement between you and the reviewer...if you don't agree, then you must decide whether it is an untenable situation for you and you must leave....the reviewer has already been given the responsibility of protecting the liability of the company, so don't expect him to compromise it. If he is asking you to "fine tune" a design rather than being overly conservative, then get him to explain to you why it's valid and between you, hash it out. You must reach an understanding. To simply change something just because someone else says to do so is absurd.
RE: Employees stamping drawings
woodengineer
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
If you work as an empolyee, you are generally shielded from fincial liability except for malice or gross negligence. If you are working as a subcontractor, you may not be shielded.
RE: Employees stamping drawings
I am a P.E. working for a truss manufacturing company. I will soon be sealing shop drawings. I have gone through several meetings with our insurance company, in addition to having my own attorney review the policy, to ensure that I am covered. Are there any other issues that you think I should be concerned with, or need to address? Thanks in advance.
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings
471.023 Certification of partnerships and corporations.
(1) The practice of, or the offer to practice, engineering by licensees offering engineering services to the public through a business organization, including a partnership, corporation, business trust, or other legal entity or by a business organization, including a corporation, partnership, business trust, or other legal entity offering such services to the public through licensees under this chapter as agents, employees, officers, or partners is permitted only if the business organization possesses a certification issued by the management corporation pursuant to qualification by the board, subject to the provisions of this chapter. One or more of the principal officers of the business organization or one or more partners of the partnership and all personnel of the business organization who act in its behalf as engineers in this state shall be licensed as provided by this chapter. All final drawings, specifications, plans, reports, or documents involving practices licensed under this chapter which are prepared or approved for the use of the business organization or for public record within the state shall be dated and shall bear the signature and seal of the licensee who prepared or approved them. . .
RE: Employees stamping drawings
RE: Employees stamping drawings