Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
(OP)
Where are the ethical grey areas in posting an responding on Eng-tips? The discussion in this forum titled "My boss says to look the other way?" might be one example of a discussion that should not be taking place online in a public forum, where should the line be drawn in such online discussions?
Another example a few weeks back, someone had posted a question to mechanical engineering other topics about how to use a lawn mower engine to rig up a rope tow for skiiers in their back yard. Should we be giving advice to non engineers on such a thing? Especially if someone might get hurt? I didn't think so, so I red flagged it.
In gas compression engineering there is an ongoing discussion about how to rig up an air compressor to compress natural gas off the utility system so the guy will have a nice supply of welding gas. There has been lots of discussion on how to do it, and most of the posters have stated that it could be dangerous. I took some heat because rather than comment on the technical details of how to do it, I rudely just said it shouldn't be done, and yes I implied it was a stupid idea. So the heat was probably justified since I didn't handle it gently, but should we really be giving the guy ideas on how to do it and what to watch out for, when it is just a bad idea? Or I am being too sensitive?
Another example a few weeks back, someone had posted a question to mechanical engineering other topics about how to use a lawn mower engine to rig up a rope tow for skiiers in their back yard. Should we be giving advice to non engineers on such a thing? Especially if someone might get hurt? I didn't think so, so I red flagged it.
In gas compression engineering there is an ongoing discussion about how to rig up an air compressor to compress natural gas off the utility system so the guy will have a nice supply of welding gas. There has been lots of discussion on how to do it, and most of the posters have stated that it could be dangerous. I took some heat because rather than comment on the technical details of how to do it, I rudely just said it shouldn't be done, and yes I implied it was a stupid idea. So the heat was probably justified since I didn't handle it gently, but should we really be giving the guy ideas on how to do it and what to watch out for, when it is just a bad idea? Or I am being too sensitive?
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!





RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
That is exactly what the red flags are for. Just keep on keeping on.
As for giving out advice to non-engineers... they get the red flag also.
I remember the post about modifying a large tractor-pulled lawn mower with chains for cutting brush... it was red flagged and removed after I called it a "people killer".
This forum is for engineers to discuss engineering projects; when we see people killers, we flag em.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
To all...
I note in the threads that there is some confidentiality required.
*I often use google for research and occasionally end up with an Eng-Tips hit. This is the result of a Google search... If you don't want the material to be visible to anyone at any time, you might want to redflag this thread... Your postings here are not unique to this forum...
Tip: Try removing quotes from your search to get more results.
Professional Ethics in engineering Forum - Eng-Tips
My boss says look the other way? Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! cjd97 (Structural). 13 replies ...
www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=765 - 34k - 26 Jan 2007 - Cached - Similar pages*
The above came directly from a Google search.
Dik
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Should we give advice to non-engineers? It depends on what the advice is. “Don’t do it” or “you’re going to get someone killed” is advice. By no means should any of us encourage or promote “people killers” but I’d like to think the censorship comes from community responses or the post being flat out ignored. Silence can come across quite loudly. Then comes the issue of dealing with those that do fuel threads that need to be ignored or spoken out against, again community response. Sometimes people need to hear they’re being stupid to keep from doing something stupid.
Yes, this is supposed to be a forum for engineers but that title doesn’t exempt someone from poor judgment in initiating or answering a thread. A "bad" engineer can be just as, if not more, dangerous than a non-engineer. I’ve known plenty of engineers (myself included) that either through inexperience or ignorance have had bad ideas. We’ve also seen questionable posts from people that are probably engineers and they tend to get their fair share of counseling.
These are self regulating forums and as such everyone participating needs to exercise good judgment in what they post and what information they walk away with
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
The spirit is to find solutions, if I'm off track because I didn't think about the seal implications, I'll learn only if I'm told, not RED FLAGGED.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
If after posting, they decide they might have jeopardised their anonymity and that might be a problem for them, they should red flag their own post.
I personally do not think it is anyone else's business if someone choses to expose themselves.
If they expose others, that is a whole different ballgame and should be red flagged without hesitation.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Does anyone really believe that removing the thread will stop the "inventor" of such equipment from continuing with the idea? If the thread is left with posts warning of the dangers involved, they just might be read and heeded by the next "inventor" of a similar idea.
Save the RFs for posts which offer dangerously incorrect advice, libelous or inappropriate language, antagonistic or racist views, etc.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
The problem I see with leaving such threads, is someone else (or hundreds of someone elses)googles "back yard tow rope design for skiiers" and reads the thread here on how to do it, without ever engaging the community and finding out about the dangerous bits.
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
As to not allowing non-engineering posters, what is the difference between that and, say, an automotive engineer only experienced in electronics asking a question about hydraulics or corrosion? An earnest hobbyist question can still add value to the site as a whole.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
I don't think that red flag a crazy/dangerous/out of ordinary idea is the way for several reasons:
-Red flags wil not prevent anybody to pursue the idea, rational and clear advises might;
-Maybe what started with a craxy/our of ordinary idea turns out to be with some modifications and peer review a feasible idea for other application, situation, etc.;
-Even if in the end it is still a crazy idea but if the inventor takes into consideration some of the inputs in the thread might not turn out to be so dangerous.
Some of the best solutions that I had in my work started with one crazy idea
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
That is an excellent question that really goes to the heart of this discussion.
Recently an inventor asked me to provide a conceptual design-review of her idea. I made a couple of suggestions of areas where she could improve efficiency or safety. She wasn't an engineer. I'll probably never know if she took my advice or not. If she builds the widget as she originally designed it and kills someone, I don't have any liability or even guilty feelings. If she accepts my suggestions and still kills someone (maybe because of something I missed, and maybe because of other factors) I still don't have any liability because she didn't ask me to develop design documents/drawings nor did she ask me to supervise fabrication or tooling.
I see that face-to-face commercial transaction as very much analogous to eng-tips.com. People ask a question (generally providing a fraction of the information needed for a rigorous answer), other people either try to answer it or provide information on specific aspects of the question that interest/concern them. The original poster either does something with the information provided or doesn't. If he does, then implementation of the design/design-changes is the OP's responsibility. I don't see how it matters if the OP is an engineer with 40 years relevant experience, an engineer with experience in a different field, or a hobbyist--the responsibility for the interpretation and implementation of any suggestions that they got from eng-tips.com is solely theirs.
Management at eng-tips.com tries to keep hobbyists out, but they aren't nuts about it. They understand that the Automotive Fora (for example) are full of people who are working on the family Truckster. As long as the questions are interesting and the poster not blatent in their disregard of the proscription against hobbyists then they stay and occasionaly contribute useful information.
It is easy for us to get really full of ourselves here, but it is a bad idea. We've all worked for/around "engineers" who don't have an engineering degree (one of the best I ever saw had a degree in Biology). These people are called "engineer" by their company and often by the state boards. I think this should be a "don't ask, don't tell" situation--as long as the poster is following most of the rules of the site (e.g., no selling, no student homework, etc) then I always assume the question is from an "engineer" and try to see if I have anything to add to the discussion.
David
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Red flag dangerous ideas. The intent of this post is the responsibility of the forum; to keep it professional and relevant. Some of the opinions here lead me to believe that some have to old "If I don't help him someone else will" That's bunk.
Don't reveal anything that you don't want the world to see.
It's not censorship, it's not big brother... is the responsible thing to do.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
??? A rose is a rose...
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RF'ing a "dangerous" thread doesn't eliminate the problem, it just hides it from view and stops others from giving possible life saving advice.
IMO, RF'ing such a thread smacks of the NIMBY attitude ... "I don't want it here, let somebody else deal with the problem".
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Righ now in Boiler and Pressure Vessle Engineering there's a thread794-176703 debating pneumatic testing versus hydro testing. There are stong opinions on both sides. I would hate to see the thread get pulled because one or two people flagged it because THEY THOUGHT pneumatic testing is too risky and discussing it was "inappropriate." That wouldn't be right, in my opinion...period.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Regards,
-Mike
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Crazy, dangerous ideas hurt people when they get carried out. If a discussion on Eng-Tips convinces the original poster that the idea is crazy and dangerous, then it won't get carried out. If it disappears into the aether, then it may be obvious that the black helicopters got to it.
Post it and criticize it.
If your post gets red-flagged, you get no feed-back. My original attempt to post the John Barrymore quote on SB's S Lounge got red flagged. My second attempt is up there now, with some language censored. There was an obvious explanation, which appears to be correct.
At the very least, the software should send a nastygram when a post is deleted.
JHG
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
"The members of our forums have a right to communicate free of commercialism, and we at Tecumseh Group stand ready to vigorously defend that right. With the help of our members using the "Red Flag" utility found in our TipMaster forums, we can accomplish this goal."
IE, it's more to weed out advertisements or someone hawking their product than anything.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
There is an expectation of relatively calm, rational engineering discourse. People that do not fit that requirement should expect to be booted off. Perpetual motion machines are routinely booted off, because they attract loony toons to join into a pointless discussion.
TTFN
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Regards,
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
If you come to this forum looking for help on how to rig up a rocket using your vacuum cleaner or some other such insane idea, you are still the person responsible when your vacuum explodes...
To the people who want to red-flag every idea/topic/post they feel is "dangerous", stop and think about how much better it would be to try to teach the person something, explain why what they are doing is not a good idea, instead of just yanking the post.
Like with children, the best way to lead is by example, by teaching right from wrong, and not by saying "because I said so".
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
It is not mentioned here as being private. Anyway, whether it be private or public is irrelevant to the ethics question posed by the OP.
IRstuff ... No poster has suggested that total free speech should be allowed here, nor that people should be allowed to "spout off" about anything. The OPs main question was whether advice should be given in a thread related to the creation of potentially dangerous equipment and even whether the thread should be allowed to exist. Most respondents have stated they are in favour of allowing its existence (or have been non-committal), but because there is no "Green Flag" button, the minority RF'ers will rule.
For the record, I am not opposed to RF's and have used the function often ... but not for the OPs situation.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Check copyright notice at the bottom of each page of this website.
I also refer you to civilperson's posting
TTFN
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
I'm sorry, I don't understand what I am supposed to see in the copyright notice. Were you referring to the Eng-Tips forums as a whole or this Pro' Ethics forum? I assumed you meant the latter.
Civilperson posted 4 replies ... and I agree with them all. What specifically were you referring me to?
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
If I post asking how to build a dirty bomb and I receive replies on how dumb I am and why I can't do it, then let it sit.....if however the unabomber wants to post to me on exactly how to do it, Tecumseh Group has a due diligence requirement to delete the topic as they may be held criminally responsible for what I do with the information "they" have facilitated. Just as an ISP can be held responsible for the pirated music I share on their server, not that I do that mind you.....
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
You can only trust statistics 90% of the time.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
I agree with you; but we are not children.
When my children post inappropriate material on their website, I make them take it off. I don’t leave it up there as an example of what not to do. I don’t let them cuss; when they do, I correct them and I don’t post the words up on a wall for them to see what not to say. Because then everyone can see the words, then I have other children learning them…. (To use your analogy.)
So Joe Blow came in one day, and posted an idea that we all thought would kill someone. After much response from the members, it was removed with a red flag. Thank goodness it was; all we needed was one nut-cake to come in, see the idea, and disregard the warnings.
The best way to cure a disease is to eliminate it… not keep it around so everyone can see it, and then one day it gets loose.
Proof positive is this: You don’t see these dangerous ideas posted on this site, that’s management doing a fine job, and I support their decision.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RF'ers don't rule anything. They simply bring a questionable post to the attention of the ownership...that's all.
And if the OWNERS of this site wish to leave it alone, that is there right, and if they wish to remove it, it is their right to do so as well.
The Tecumseh Group has a vision for what this site is all about. If a post doesn't meet that vision, then they can do as they please.
Minority RF'ers "ruling" and Green Flag voters voting imply a democratic form of site government....which is not what exists here...or on really any forum type site for that matter.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
This one:
and:
So there is a suggestion to allow postings that would fall well outside of the norm for this site. Hence, my response.
TTFN
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
No, we are not children. And you are not our parent. I agree with michfan that, as adults, saying "because I said so" is not a legitimate reason for anything. The exception, of course is the forum host, who has the right to decide what direction to take these fora.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
I'm glad we agree.
Enough said from me.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
FAQ731-376
I don't see this situation exactly addressed although I notice:
One thing I have heard from the moderators, if in doubt go ahead and red-flag the post. You don't have the power to delete it, you are simply bringing it to the forum administrator's attention for them to consider. There is also a place on the red-flag screen to type comments, which you might use to clarify your level of concern about the post.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Are we beating a dead horse here?
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
But on offensive comments, is it possible to delete just the offensive posting and not the whole thread?
Also send a reminder to the offender that the behavior will not be tolerated? Possibly let him/her edit their posting?
______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
The problem is that what is offensive to me may not be offensive to you, and visa-versa. Religion and politics are two areas which get red-flagged often, and for good reason; but are they actually dangerous? Those are also subjects where usually only the offending posts get removed, while the threads continue (unless they have a history of generating such posts).
While being able to edit ones own post would be nice, I can see how the consistency of the thread would be quickly lost. Maybe let it be edited until someone else posts? Only the last poster would be able to edit their post.
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Or just bookmark the link;
http://www.gathis.com/graphics/deadtopic2.gif
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
http://www.gathis.com/graphics/deadtopic.gif
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!