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Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips
17

Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

(OP)
Where are the ethical grey areas in posting an responding on Eng-tips? The discussion in this forum titled "My boss says to look the other way?" might be one example of a discussion that should not be taking place online in a public forum, where should the line be drawn in such online discussions?

Another example a few weeks back, someone had posted a question to mechanical engineering other topics about how to use a lawn mower engine to rig up a rope tow for skiiers in their back yard. Should we be giving advice to non engineers on such a thing? Especially if someone might get hurt? I didn't think so, so I red flagged it.

In gas compression engineering there is an ongoing discussion about how to rig up an air compressor to compress natural gas off the utility system so the guy will have a nice supply of welding gas. There has been lots of discussion on how to do it, and most of the posters have stated that it could be dangerous. I took some heat because rather than comment on the technical details of how to do it, I rudely just said it shouldn't be done, and yes I implied it was a stupid idea. So the heat was probably justified since I didn't handle it gently, but should we really be giving the guy ideas on how to do it and what to watch out for, when it is just a bad idea? Or I am being too sensitive?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

No, you are not being too sensitive. This subject has been discussed since I can remember (2004).

That is exactly what the red flags are for. Just keep on keeping on.

As for giving out advice to non-engineers... they get the red flag also.

I remember the post about modifying a large tractor-pulled lawn mower with chains for cutting brush... it was red flagged and removed after I called it a "people killer".

This forum is for engineers to discuss engineering projects; when we see people killers, we flag em.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

This is one of my posts regarding the topic from the thread...

To all...

I note in the threads that there is some confidentiality required.

*I often use google for research and occasionally end up with an Eng-Tips hit.  This is the result of a Google search... If you don't want the material to be visible to anyone at any time, you might want to redflag this thread... Your postings here are not unique to this forum...

Tip: Try removing quotes from your search to get more results.
Professional Ethics in engineering Forum - Eng-Tips
My boss says look the other way? Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! cjd97 (Structural). 13 replies ...
www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=765 - 34k - 26 Jan 2007 - Cached - Similar pages*

The above came directly from a Google search.

Dik

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Nothing confidential should ever be posted on a public forum.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I assumed ye-ol red flag was reserved for posts that inappropriate in the context of language (vulgar, abusive, etc).  I hadn’t though about it beyond that but I guess there is some merit to using it as a filter.

Should we give advice to non-engineers?  It depends on what the advice is.  “Don’t do it” or “you’re going to get someone killed” is advice.  By no means should any of us encourage or promote “people killers” but I’d like to think the censorship comes from community responses or the post being flat out ignored.  Silence can come across quite loudly.  Then comes the issue of dealing with those that do fuel threads that need to be ignored or spoken out against, again community response.  Sometimes people need to hear they’re being stupid to keep from doing something stupid.  

Yes, this is supposed to be a forum for engineers but that title doesn’t exempt someone from poor judgment in initiating or answering a thread.  A "bad" engineer can be just as, if not more, dangerous than a non-engineer. I’ve known plenty of engineers (myself included) that either through inexperience or ignorance have had bad ideas.  We’ve also seen questionable posts from people that are probably engineers and they tend to get their fair share of counseling.

These are self regulating forums and as such everyone participating needs to exercise good judgment in what they post and what information they walk away with

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

4
Big brother and his minions are antithetical to free flow of ideas and opinions.  Even wrong and dangerous ideas and suggestions should be exposed to rigorous debate, NOT CENSORSHIP! Keep your red flags for duplicate postings and let unpopular or unexpert opinions have a voice.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

The discussions like the one sms mentioned, were of the nature of finding a better mousetrap.  Everyone warned the guy wanting to use a piece of equipment in a different service.  The easy way out on any post is to say NO.  What do we learn from that?  Almost everyone that said it could be done iterated that he sould use bottled gas.  You can go out and buy a FORD v-8 engine that has a special intake and ehaust manifold on one bank that uses that bank as a gas compressor up to 150 psig!!! The other bank is the power. If we would have said NO to the guy that thought that up!!
The spirit is to find solutions, if I'm off track because I didn't think about the seal implications, I'll learn only if I'm told, not RED FLAGGED.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

If someone has said something here, they should presume it will get public scrutiny.

If after posting, they decide they might have jeopardised their anonymity and that might be a problem for them, they should red flag their own post.

I personally do not think it is anyone else's business if someone choses to expose themselves.

If they expose others, that is a whole different ballgame and should be red flagged without hesitation.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Having the "dangerous ideas/equipment" threads, removed does absolutely nothing to protect anyone. In fact it could put the OP at increased risk. How do you know that the OP read the warnings before they disappeared?

Does anyone really believe that removing the thread will stop the "inventor" of such equipment from continuing with the idea? If the thread is left with posts warning of the dangers involved, they just might be read and heeded by the next "inventor" of a similar idea.

Save the RFs for posts which offer dangerously incorrect advice, libelous or inappropriate language, antagonistic or racist views, etc.

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Why aren't we allowed to give advice to non-engineers anyway?

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Some of the people with bad ideas, if ignored/red flagged here, will keep posting in other forums until they finally get what they percieve as encouragement.  If we respond negatively with ratioanl reasons why not to do something, maybe one out of ten OPs will re-examine their ideas and not hurt somebody.  I'm okay with that.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

(OP)
I agree with TheBlacksmith, but it really depends on what feed back the OP gets on why the thread was removed. If there is feed back, and it is specific on why the thread was removed, then maybe it is a good thing.

The problem I see with leaving such threads, is someone else (or hundreds of someone elses)googles "back yard tow rope design for skiiers" and reads the thread here on how to do it, without ever engaging the community and finding out about the dangerous bits.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

2
While it may be up to us to police the site, we need to use restraint in the interest of the free exchange of information.  I don't feel that we have the obligation to red flag a post because someone may find it by googling for it unless, as Pat pointed out, it exposes others without their consent.  If they don't read the entire thread and any negatives to their question, it is their own fault.  If they don't find what they are looking for here, they will find it elsewhere, maybe without any caveats.
As to not allowing non-engineering posters, what is the difference between that and, say, an automotive engineer only experienced in electronics asking a question about hydraulics or corrosion?  An earnest hobbyist question can still add value to the site as a whole.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I bet less than 50% of the postings are done by PE's.  Techs, EIT's, science graduates and engineering graduates, contractors and laypersons have knowledge and questions that are suitable for posting.  The PE's expertise and experience is usually narrow in scope and thus the need to expose your ignorance to what seems simple to a person who has dealt which similar problems many times.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I agree with most of the persons:
I don't think that red flag a crazy/dangerous/out of ordinary idea is the way for several reasons:
-Red flags wil not prevent anybody to pursue the idea, rational and clear advises might;
-Maybe what started with a craxy/our of ordinary idea turns out to be with some modifications and peer review a feasible idea for other application, situation, etc.;
-Even if in the end it is still a crazy idea but if the inventor takes into consideration some of the inputs in the thread might not turn out to be so dangerous.
Some of the best solutions that I had in my work started with one crazy idea

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Tomth,
That is an excellent question that really goes to the heart of this discussion.  

Recently an inventor asked me to provide a conceptual design-review of her idea.  I made a couple of suggestions of areas where she could improve efficiency or safety.  She wasn't an engineer.  I'll probably never know if she took my advice or not.  If she builds the widget as she originally designed it and kills someone, I don't have any liability or even guilty feelings.  If she accepts my suggestions and still kills someone (maybe because of something I missed, and maybe because of other factors) I still don't have any liability because she didn't ask me to develop design documents/drawings nor did she ask me to supervise fabrication or tooling.

I see that face-to-face commercial transaction as very much analogous to eng-tips.com.  People ask a question (generally providing a fraction of the information needed for a rigorous answer), other people either try to answer it or provide information on specific aspects of the question that interest/concern them.  The original poster either does something with the information provided or doesn't.  If he does, then implementation of the design/design-changes is the OP's responsibility.  I don't see how it matters if the OP is an engineer with 40 years relevant experience, an engineer with experience in a different field, or a hobbyist--the responsibility for the interpretation and implementation of any suggestions that they got from eng-tips.com is solely theirs.

Management at eng-tips.com tries to keep hobbyists out, but they aren't nuts about it.  They understand that the Automotive Fora (for example) are full of people who are working on the family Truckster.  As long as the questions are interesting and the poster not blatent in their disregard of the proscription against hobbyists then they stay and occasionaly contribute useful information.  

It is easy for us to get really full of ourselves here, but it is a bad idea.  We've all worked for/around "engineers" who don't have an engineering degree (one of the best I ever saw had a degree in Biology).  These people are called "engineer" by their company and often by the state boards.  I think this should be a "don't ask, don't tell" situation--as long as the poster is following most of the rules of the site (e.g., no selling, no student homework, etc) then I always assume the question is from an "engineer" and try to see if I have anything to add to the discussion.

David

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Crazy Ideas don't hurt people. Dangerous ideas hurt people; if they are carried out. They won't get carried out if I have anything to say about it, because I will Red Flag the post. I'm not going to leave a dangerous idea hanging in the wind for all to see. If the idea is going to be implemented, it won't be because of my failure to remove it from this forum.

Red flag dangerous ideas. The intent of this post is the responsibility of the forum; to keep it professional and relevant. Some of the opinions here lead me to believe that some have to old "If I don't help him someone else will" That's bunk.

 
Don't reveal anything that you don't want the world to see.

It's not censorship, it's not big brother... is the responsible thing to do.




Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

"It's not censorship"

??? A rose is a rose...

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck and flies around the pond like a duck then it is probably CENSORSHIP hiding behind "good judgement", protection of the uninformed or similar specious reasoning.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Well, OK, then it's censorship. That does not make it wrong. This is not the government nor is it a Democracy. It is a website with rules.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Quote:

"If I don't help him someone else will" That's bunk.
No it's not bunk ... it's human nature. Most people will keep seeking answers till they get them. Better the answer be, "That would be very dangerous, you could kill someone." from a group of "professionals" rather than, "Hey, just do it, dude." from Joe Blow in some chat room.

RF'ing a "dangerous" thread doesn't eliminate the problem, it just hides it from view and stops others from giving possible life saving advice.

IMO, RF'ing such a thread smacks of the NIMBY attitude ... "I don't want it here, let somebody else deal with the problem".

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Censorship by its very nature is wrong. Censorship allows lies and half truths to be spread and hides unpopular views, (which may have a better founding in truth than the prevailing view. See Galileo vs. Pope).  Complete exposure and rigorous debate is the path to allow readers of this forum to make their own judgement of the merits and dangers of the ideas within.  This is the burden we place on concerned citizens of the engineering community, to cast a sceptical eye on what is presented and make a determination of its correctness or errors.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Quote:

It is a website with rules
Agreed, and that is what makes Eng-Tips so good and sets it apart from most other forum groups ... but where does the rule, stating that threads relating to dangerous activities be removed, reside?

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

You know, its kinda like the jury awarding a bunch of stupid guys that the pilot threw off the plane, $400,000.  From now on all pilots should just stop the plane from taking off and have the state gather up a jury to decide if the plane should fly, heck lets grab a jury to read posts first.......

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

When it comes down to it, determinations as to what is good or bad, crazy or sane, safe or unsafe can be largly subjective.  What may unacceptabe to one persone may be acceptable to another.

Righ now in Boiler and Pressure Vessle Engineering there's a thread794-176703  debating pneumatic testing versus hydro testing.  There are stong opinions on both sides.  I would hate to see the thread get pulled because one or two people flagged it because THEY THOUGHT pneumatic testing is too risky and discussing it was "inappropriate."  That wouldn't be right, in my opinion...period.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I think this site is well managed both by the staff and the help of some necessary red flags, which in my opinion is necessary to keep the site going in the right direction.  But engineering is difficult work and there are going to be a lot of questions and differing opinions that sometimes get into the gray areas of both technical and ethical issues.  I agree that there are certainly topics and legal situations that shouldn't get discussed here, but you have to expect that a forum titled "Professional Ethics" for example, will discuss in some detail ethical questions.

Regards,
-Mike

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I agree with mrMikee - this site is very well managed and Red Flags are reviewed by the staff carefully - even with efforts to see outside opinions at times.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

FACS,

   Crazy, dangerous ideas hurt people when they get carried out.  If a discussion on Eng-Tips convinces the original poster that the idea is crazy and dangerous, then it won't get carried out.  If it disappears into the aether, then it may be obvious that the black helicopters got to it.

   Post it and criticize it.

   If your post gets red-flagged, you get no feed-back.  My original attempt to post the John Barrymore quote on SB's S Lounge got red flagged.  My second attempt is up there now, with some language censored.  There was an obvious explanation, which appears to be correct.

   At the very least, the software should send a nastygram when a post is deleted.

                          JHG

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

What the red flag is for:
"The members of our forums have a right to communicate free of commercialism, and we at Tecumseh Group stand ready to vigorously defend that right. With the help of our members using the "Red Flag" utility found in our TipMaster forums, we can accomplish this goal."

IE, it's more to weed out advertisements or someone hawking their product than anything.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Non-censorship is an ideal.  This is a reality and a privately-owned forum.  There is no "right" to freedom of speech HERE.  Anyone who wants to spout off can do so at a number of blog and other public sites designed for that specific purpose.

There is an expectation of relatively calm, rational engineering discourse.  People that do not fit that requirement should expect to be booted off.  Perpetual motion machines are routinely booted off, because they attract loony toons to join into a pointless discussion.  

TTFN



RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

The red flag brings a posting to the attention of the site master(s) and allows you to comment why you think it inappropriate.  From what I have seen, they will review the posting and if they agree, it is removed.  If they decide not to remove it, it stays.  The red flag does not automatically mandate removal of a post.

Regards,

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

If you ask the IRS for help and they give you the wrong answer, you are still held responsible for your own return.  This is called "taking responsibility for your actions", something we are all expected to do as adults.

If you come to this forum looking for help on how to rig up a rocket using your vacuum cleaner or some other such insane idea, you are still the person responsible when your vacuum explodes...

To the people who want to red-flag every idea/topic/post they feel is "dangerous", stop and think about how much better it would be to try to teach the person something, explain why what they are doing is not a good idea, instead of just yanking the post.

Like with children, the best way to lead is by example, by teaching right from wrong, and not by saying "because I said so".

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Quote:

... and a privately-owned forum
It is? Who is the moderator?
It is not mentioned here as being private. Anyway, whether it be private or public is irrelevant to the ethics question posed by the OP.

IRstuff ... No poster has suggested that total free speech should be allowed here, nor that people should be allowed to "spout off" about anything. The OPs main question was whether advice should be given in a thread related to the creation of potentially dangerous equipment and even whether the thread should be allowed to exist. Most respondents have stated they are in favour of allowing its existence (or have been non-committal), but because there is no "Green Flag" button, the minority RF'ers will rule.

For the record, I am not opposed to RF's and have used the function often ... but not for the OPs situation.

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

CBL,

Check copyright notice at the bottom of each page of this website.

I also refer you to civilperson's posting

TTFN



RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

IRstuff ...
I'm sorry, I don't understand what I am supposed to see in the copyright notice. Were you referring to the Eng-Tips forums as a whole or this Pro' Ethics forum? I assumed you meant the latter.

Civilperson posted 4 replies ... and I agree with them all. What specifically were you referring me to?

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I agree that this is a "privately" owned forum, as evidenced by the Tecumseh copyright.  If they feel that a discussion in this forum would lead to a liability on their part, i.e. negligent homicide, then they have every right to delete a thread.  Simply because you don't like a topic as you feel its dangerous, so you red-flag, expecting it to be deleted is inappropriate.

If I post asking how to build a dirty bomb and I receive replies on how dumb I am and why I can't do it, then let it sit.....if however the unabomber wants to post to me on exactly how to do it, Tecumseh Group has a due diligence requirement to delete the topic as they may be held criminally responsible for what I do with the information "they" have facilitated.  Just as an ISP can be held responsible for the pirated music I share on their server, not that I do that mind you.....

Frank "Grimey" Grimes
You can only trust statistics 90% of the time.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

michfan,
I agree with you; but we are not children.

When my children post inappropriate material on their website, I make them take it off. I don’t leave it up there as an example of what not to do. I don’t let them cuss; when they do, I correct them and I don’t post the words up on a wall for them to see what not to say. Because then everyone can see the words, then I have other children learning them…. (To use your analogy.)

So Joe Blow came in one day, and posted an idea that we all thought would kill someone. After much response from the members, it was removed with a red flag. Thank goodness it was; all we needed was one nut-cake to come in, see the idea, and disregard the warnings.

The best way to cure a disease is to eliminate it… not keep it around so everyone can see it, and then one day it gets loose.

Proof positive is this: You don’t see these dangerous ideas posted on this site, that’s management doing a fine job, and I support their decision.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

CBL...."Most respondents have stated they are in favour of allowing its existence (or have been non-committal), but because there is no "Green Flag" button, the minority RF'ers will rule."

RF'ers don't rule anything.  They simply bring a questionable post to the attention of the ownership...that's all.  

And if the OWNERS of this site wish to leave it alone, that is there right, and if they wish to remove it, it is their right to do so as well.  

The Tecumseh Group has a vision for what this site is all about.  If a post doesn't meet that vision, then they can do as they please.  

Minority RF'ers "ruling" and Green Flag voters voting imply a democratic form of site government....which is not what exists here...or on really any forum type site for that matter.



RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

CBL,
This one:

Quote (civilperson):

"Censorship by its very nature is wrong. Censorship allows lies and half truths to be spread and hides unpopular views, (which may have a better founding in truth than the prevailing view. See Galileo vs. Pope).  "

and:

Quote (civilperson):

If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck and flies around the pond like a duck then it is probably CENSORSHIP hiding behind "good judgement", protection of the uninformed or similar specious reasoning.

So there is a suggestion to allow postings that would fall well outside of the norm for this site.  Hence, my response.

TTFN



RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Charlie,
No, we are not children.  And you are not our parent.  I agree with michfan that, as adults, saying "because I said so" is not a legitimate reason for anything.  The exception, of course is the forum host, who has the right to decide what direction to take these fora.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

ewh,
I'm glad we agree.
Enough said from me.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

It was provided in a signature line above but not specifically mentioned (unless I missed it).  The semi-official guidelines for the eng-tips site are here:
FAQ731-376

I don't see this situation exactly addressed although I notice:

Quote:

Homeowner "do-it-yourself" posts are strongly Discouraged.  This is not a purpose of the Eng-Tips.com fora and non-engineers should not substitute asking questions on this site for obtaining appropriate professional assistance.

One thing I have heard from the moderators, if in doubt go ahead and red-flag the post. You don't have the power to delete it, you are simply bringing it to the forum administrator's attention for them to consider.  There is also a place on the red-flag screen to type comments, which you might use to clarify your level of concern about the post.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Allow me one comment:
Are we beating a dead horse here?

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Trigger is long dead and gone.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

I agree with red-flagging something that would be considered dangerous.

But on offensive comments, is it possible to delete just the offensive posting and not the whole thread?

Also send a reminder to the offender that the behavior will not be tolerated?  Possibly let him/her edit their posting?

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

controlnovice,

The problem is that what is offensive to me may not be offensive to you, and visa-versa.  Religion and politics are two areas which get red-flagged often, and for good reason; but are they actually dangerous?  Those are also subjects where usually only the offending posts get removed, while the threads continue (unless they have a history of generating such posts).
While being able to edit ones own post would be nice, I can see how the consistency of the thread would be quickly lost.  Maybe let it be edited until someone else posts?  Only the last poster would be able to edit their post.
peace

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

For MedicineEng & JAE...

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

... and anyone else who keeps adding to this thread.


ponder .... Doh!

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Hi ho, Silver.  AWAY!

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Where can we get a copy of the dead horse picture?  It is GREAT.

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

Hmmmmm. I may have to RF the animal cruelty picture....

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

... and what will the horse have learned if you do? lol

cheers

RE: Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips

(OP)
Thank you I all I enjoyed the discussion. I have much to think about.....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

Red Flag This Post

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