BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
(OP)
A while back I attended a Revit Seminar at my office. I was slightly impressed with its capabilities, but it seemed to not be that popular. Now every engineering magazine that I get is talking about how awesome BMI is, but I have still not encountered anyone who is doing it. I have not met one architect that has heard of it. Has anyone had any experience with projects where all the consulants are using a BMI software, and if so is it really all it is cracked up to be?






RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Regards,
-Mike
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
BIM is being hyped now like GIS was several years ago. Is it worth the hype?
BIM will slow things down because now the engineers have to work together ALL THE TIME and the shops will just have to wait until the last interference check is done before drawings are ready...
I predict it will upset a lot of contractors because field changes will be reduced to nothing. I also predict it will befuddle a lot of PM's because they won't understand whyt he engineers are messing with their computers all the time - and that means they're costing money.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
where does the engineer's use of BIM stop and the contractor's use of BIM begin? are engineers required to provide intricate details thru every wall; at every framing connection?
the increased liability is a concern for me. I see BIM as an opportunity for contractors to claim delays or problems because the shared electronic database has dimensional errors or missing information about connections or whatever. I provide a sealed and signed set of construction drawings for a project. That is the record set. Where does the electronic database fit into that? If we issue a statement that the sealed and signed set of documents is official and the electronic database is for reference, will we be creating a liability issue if the dimensions shown on the hard copies do not match exactly the cad version which is expected to be "perfect"?
I know several MEP firms who are already using BIM type of software to create 3D layouts of ducts and plumbing. The cad software is not that expensive from what I can tell, but how useful to others would a 3D layout of my structural framing be?
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
They're behind it because it has to do with structural engineering and, theoretically, has a lot of promise. I'm on my firm's BIM implementation team and, while those of us on the team intuitively "know" the possibilities, we also recognize that those in charge of the money have absolutely no idea what's going to be dome with BIM. If "everyone's" using it, why aren't we? Well, is everyone using it or not? Also, the people in charge of the money have very little clue as to how long anything really takes, so, boy, are they in for a surprise...
BUT, once the BIM model is complete and all the disciplines are satisfied and the customer has this nifty 3D model to look at and maybe fly through... NOW, the PM will have to sell the model to the customer and manage any changes, etc., etc.
And... once the building is finished, the Operations folks will have a 3D model of the working structure and can monitor/record/etc. all the maintenance they've done, and so on.
But... haven't we had the technology to be doing this all along?
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
With apologies to Scott Melnick, "Weeks are cut from the project, change orders are practically nil" might be embellishing things a bit.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
It was abandoned because the take off quantities is only as good as the model itself and it is two easy to not click a box here or there that could greatly change your quantities. In the end the Contractor stated they would not use the model for their estimate. More importantly we would have blown the budget many times over.
Talking to a friend at ZweigWhite, the publisher of Structural Engineering and all the other free Engineer/Architecture magazines, he admitted that they are big supporters of BIM. One, look at all the ads and articles related to BIM. Two, look at all the seminars and conferences that they sponsor educating all of us about BIM. They are trying to convince everyone you must use BIM or you will be left behind like the dinosaurs. It has been a great marketing campaign to sell something nobody seems to want and it has worked.
It is similar to how ASCE really supported continuing education a few years back. Now they are the leader in continuing education for Civil Engineers. All of you that are ASCE members get the same daily ASCE Seminar pamphlet in the mail that I do showcasing Excavation Safety or Seismic Design of Liquid Storage Tanks for $1,045 plus Travel and Hotel. Since Jan. 1st I have received 25 offers by mail from ASCE, at $0.39 apiece it appears my $200+ annual dues are used to mail me more offers. No wonder the dues keep going up.
Just think ASCE also thinks that you should have a Masters degree (or 30 hours of classwork beyond a B.S. degree) in order to get your P.E. license. Which has now been adopted by NCEES, do you think that this is because Grad school enrollment is down and the majority of ASCE Board members are also Professors. While I am glad I went to Grad school and received M.S. I still think I learned more my first year out of school then I ever did in school.
I also believe if we get more practicing Professional Engineers and less Professors and product salesman on the Building code committees we would have a lot less changes to the building codes. But I think we are all to busy trying to keep up with the changes that we don’t have time to attend committee meetings.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
You are so right on this. Its something everyone is telling us we want and can use, without ever asking us if we want or can use it.
Reminds me a lot of metric about 10 years ago. I was working for a place that did a lot of federal government work. We had people, the same people trying to sell us seminars and such, telling us in 5 years nobody would be using English units, and if we didn't get on the metric band wagon now, we would be out of buisnes in a year or two.
My place of former employment is still around, still designing in English units, and doing quite well.
I am sure the same salesmen are still around, hawking BIM seminars now.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
OT, I've gotten the FREE PDH's that were offered in Structural Engineer magazine (5 pdh through PCA self-study) and CE News (3 pdh through CON-TECH's self study) and the State of New York Recognizes their certificates as partially fulfilling my continuing education requirements
Back on topic, what gets me about BIM is that it's promise is that engineers will collaborate "more." What irks me is that how come the design team leader isn't making sure everyone's on the same sheet of paper? I guess one of the things BIM will do is design the project for you...
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I think BIM is a great idea, but I fear that it's present form may focus too much on IT and not enough on CE.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Concerning BIM, while I'm sure there is potential with solid technological reasons behind the systems, I wonder about jumping in too early in the process. Does anyone here remember Autocad in the mid 80s on 286 computers with 14" monitors? Sure, CAD is a valuable tool now, but it was not a user friendly experience back then, at least in my opinion. I would guess that the BIM software available in five years would be much better than now since we are in the early stages of adoption.
Just a thought.
-Mike
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I'm a CA licensed civil and structural engineer and the head of the building design department at our company. Our department takes designs from concept to a permit set of plans (including complete 3-D modeling, architectural design / plans, structural engineering design / plans / calculations and energy calculations).
About a year and a half ago or so, we started the migration to BIM. We've found that the time / cost to obtain a complete architectural plan set (from only a design concept) has been cut in half, while providing additional value to the client (they now have a 3-D model of their structure, whereas previously they only saw things in 2-D).
Not only can the 3-D model be seen on the computer, if the client would like, it can be used to create a (scale) physical 3-D model (like a dollhouse) of their structure using stereolithography. The correct colors / textures can even be added to the model.
Additionally, BIM keeps improving all the time. For instance, once the model has been correctly created, energy calculations can be performed more quickly and accurately (right from the model).
Also, the ability to analyze the model structurally is becoming more and more popular, with better support from software manufacturers all the time.
Sure we had to teach all of the old dogs new tricks, but once they learned 'em, they now have new tricks to showoff. I'm not going to make light of it, though. It has been a difficult learning process for everyone involved and has required much patience. Of course we've really only made it up to 3-D at this point (not 4-D or 5-D yet, though the software has the capability to).
I can't fathom ever going back to 2-D CAD. I really can't understand how anyone (today) can survive using 2-D handdrafting! When I think back about how inefficiently we used to operate, it boggles my mind.
If you draw architectural plans in 2-D, how many times do you draw (or create a placeholder for) the same window or the same door . . . once in the floor plan, once in the exterior elevations, maybe once again in an interior elevation, possibly again in a cross section, and maybe even again in a detail? When you draft in 3-D (BIM), how many times do you draw the same window / door . . . once!
BIM can also help elimate costly mistakes.
My two cents . . .
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I am curious. Do you get a larger fee when you provide the owner with a 3d model and do you get some type of waiver of liability. Does your insurance carrier have any concerns.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Again, though, let's keep in mind what they have cannot be modified by them. Once they're done "playing around" with the model, there's no way to save the changes.
The work product they are paying us for is the plans and calculations. The read / write version of the model remains our property and is only an "instrument of service" while the read only version is theirs to keep. I suppose if they wanted to pay us enough, we may release the read / write version . . . but not until we had a complete waiver of any liability associated with the model, signed by them. That being said, up to this point we have not released the modifiable version to any of our clients. We also already have a fairly enforceable limitation of liability agreement in effect with every one of our projects.
We do not typically command a larger fee for modeling in 3-D. As previously mentioned, what it has done is allow us to be substantially more competitive, though. We are working in a more efficient / coordinated fashion, keeping budgets better in check. Clients will often select us over the competition due to the provision of the 3-D model. We may not have otherwise gotten these projects.
Having the 3-D model is also beneficial once the project gets to the engineering stage. All of the structures we do (at this point) are four stories or less, usually light commercial and custom residential (concrete, wood and steel mostly) performed for private sector clients (we don't currently work for, nor have the desire to work for, government clients). Typically, these types of structures are not highly repetitive (like a parking structure or highrise) and can be very difficult to visualize in 2-D (at times). Vertical offsets in floor diaphragms, clerestories, multiple ceiling heights on the same story, complicated stick-framed roofs (think turrets, curved roofs, dormers, attic trusses, etc.), hillside projects with stepped foundations and / or retaining walls, etc. are all features that can be difficult for the engineer visualize / design for.
With an inhouse 3-D model, the engineer can (in about five seconds) cut and view a scale cross section on any part of the structure. The engineer can also (in about the same amount of time) have an interior elevation of any portion of the structure. Little details that may otherwise get missed by the engineer and may affect their detailing / calculations, get caught.
We are currently moving into exporting the 3-D model into structural analysis software packages (RAM or RISA, for instance) for analysis. Though the bugs are still being worked out, if one exports the model into RAM, a very thorough structural analysis (with calculations) can already occur. If changes need to be made to the 3-D model (say changing an assumed beam size or footing size), it can be changed in the analysis package and synchronized / updated in the architectural model.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
"...QualPro, a research company I wrote about recently, searched for corporations announcing new Six Sigma programs, then looked at what happened to each company's stock price. Of the 58 companies they reviewed, only six had stocks that outperformed the S&P 500, while 52 underperformed...."
This was my earlier point about the parallels between the craze of the past, TQM, and the today's craze, BIM. The Dauten column continues with the fake conversation, with the conclusion being that TQM is fine, but if it doesn't result in other changes in the company, its benefits are dubious at best. Like any change that requires a significant resource allocation, your company might benefit from BIM, and it might not. The difficulty is deciding if you'll eventually see a net benefit. It might seem to you that people are just fighting progress; most experienced engineers have seen enough of these fads come and go to be wary of any change that demands such an investment of precious company resources.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Today many large (and small) aerospace companies are moving toward a new standard in which items are completely designed and documented in the CAD model. MBD (model based definition) is not yet widespread, and I still here similar comments about how it will be to difficult to adapt to, but it is the future, and if you choose to ignore it and stay with what you are the most comfortable with, you will be left behind. The current situation with BIM is eerily similar.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I have never done a commercial building, but I can't imagine that there can be enough complexity to pay for 3D modeling a CVS pharmacy. A skyscraper, a city landmark architect-went-nuts library, or a Wal-Mart can bring up the question, however. The skyscraper is large and fairly complex and managing the info could be useful. An architect-gone-nuts structure can be incredibly complex, even if it's fairly small. A Wal-Mart is about as close as you can get to a mass-produced decent sized structure, so economies of scale may kick in to pay for 3D.
To sum up, I say again that I really think it depends on scale in the building industry.
The aerospace industry is different in that every structure is complex, made from a huge number of differing materials, and requires a ridiculous amount of paperwork for tracking every tiny piece for certification. The high school summer I spent as a clerk on the shop floor of a helicopter engine shop taught me to appreciate that.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I read that structural engineers working on Gehry buildings draw in 3-d and give the electronic file to the steel fabricator. Can you imagine trying to draw one of those structures in 2D?
I've seen revit structural, but not convinced yet that it would save me any time. Maybe I'm just not ready to learn another program, being a SE for almost 40 years! I've done pretty good hanging in there to date, but now I'm ready for dinosaur status.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Sounds a lot like the aguements we heard 10 years ago concerning metric. We were informed, as a matter of obvious fact, that 'everyone' would be designing in metric in a few short years, and if you didn't get on the bandwagon, you would be out of buisness shortly.
How many people (in the USA) design their domestic buildings in metric today?
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
In our case history with Revit, it can help you create your standard 2D drawings faster, especially on the Architectural side of things. However structural we didn’t see a big payoff since most structural drawings are stick drawings with typically detail sheets. With Revit you still have to go in and call everything out so the details are not completed after the model is finished.
I’ve designed 100’s of CVS, Wal-Marts, Home Depot’s and all your typically big box retailers and this would never be more efficient then the process they use know. If you have ever been involved in the design or construction of a Wal-Mart you will quickly learn it is a highly efficient program that many other companies have copied. If it will produce a better product faster or cheaper Wal-Mart will implement it into their program. So far no BIM for Wal-Mart. On those 1 of kind projects were you already have a larger budget I could see the advantage of a full blown 3D model but I still think a good design team and final review of the entire construction documents, is better then new software.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Are you saying that tilt-up structures with metal deck on steel joist roofs don't need to be BIMmed?
If so, I would find it really hard to disagree.
I agree that the BIM should contain everything, down to just how many washers were used on the soap dispenser's wall fastening!
http://www.eatyourcad.com/tag.php?tag=BIM has some excellent, healthy/cynical BIM discussion. I recommend it before making a "final" decision on BIM.
I see two camps: 1; the architects who see BIM as an even better paint brush to thus paint their vision on the canvas of the world, 2: the engineering firm VPs who are killing themselves worrying about how much it's all going to cost, how they're going to get around letting anyone do any creative work or (worse) really get into their projects on a team basis, and how they're going to spread liability thin enough...
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Is every single structural element included in the model? I'm thinking of a steel joist/metal deck roof, which has edge angles, miscellaneous angle framing at mechanical openings, angle or light gage kickers at storefront windows and parapets, things like this. If the answer is "yes," I can see the structural engineer's time increasing a lot to get these items modeled, loaded, analyzed/designed, etc.
To echo some other people's thoughts, BIM may be great for large projects, but I'm not convinced it should be applied to the vast majority of building structures.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Walter P. Moore in Houston is a firm that I know is using Revit right now - one of their engineers has spoken at an engineering conference I attended and indicated that they are having good success with it on the larger projects that they have used it on.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
I was majorly intrigued by the claim, in one of the articles, of Revit structural that it could incorporate RISA 3D information. How this is actually done was apparently beyond the scope of the article.
As a side note it was authored by Mr. Gary Wyatt, who is sales/marketing director for RoboBat. RoboBat produces ROBOT, a structural analysis program that functions with REVIT structural. I had never heard of ROBOT.
My main thought is that BIM/structural will be a niche rather than the norm. This niche will be driven by the project scope, needs, and/or client request.
The idea of an interactive and useful 3 dimensional computer model has been around for years. Each discpline or group of disciplines have worked towards a 3d model because of their own needs IMHO.
Architects like 3d because they want to live in 3d to begin with, they are, after all designing spaces. A 3d package is a natural progression for Architects who doodle in 3d already when brainstorming. Plus, having used 3d packages like Archicad it is pretty darn fun! Much more intuitive than vanilla box Autocad 3d, which has always been just too non-specific, and thus, very difficult to develop an efficient tool out of.
MEP people like 3d because when you have a slew of pipes and such like flying around a project, it makes sense to model that spaghetti. I don't think their pipes have any need for linking to analysis software though (correct me here, i don't have much experience with Piping). It seems to me, an 8 inch steam pipe is really okay to be a "dumb" piece except for maybe size, material, length and fittings.
Then there are equipment manufacturers who make 3d models of their equipment. Not sure about this, but that may be due to the ability to send those 3d models out to vendors who supply parts and such...(really fuzzy on this part). What I do know is I would sometimes get a 3d model of a piece of equipment and it supplied all I needed to know as far as bolt locations, height, length, footprint, etc. They rarely seem to know how much the darn things WEIGH though.
So where does this leave a structural team? Is a series of bays consisting of beams, girders and columns that difficult to visualize? Of course not. Thus not much driving force behind 3d from structural standpoint. Typically the parts structurals input are pretty basic in terms of 3d geometry. On top of that the analysis models for calculations are even more simplified. Is there a point to having each bolt, washer, and misc. angle accounted for? That gets done at the fabricators. Will the structural team now have to ask the fabricator to send back a BIM model for re-insertion in the 3d model?
What I think may happen is there will be the advent of a new CAD person. This will be the person that is trained on this new software and acts as a liason between 3d and non 3d team members. Will there still be be traditional 2d plans to be sealed? I believe this will remain. I foresee the 3d team member "trimming" these 2d plans down for insertion in the 3d model. Link these roof, floor, and foundation plans together with vertical elements and you begin to have a 3d model. Now, most structural engineers are probaly still thinking "So what?".
Possibly the early work on the model from the architects' model will mean a complete digital structural analysis model that only needs loads and combinations? If the model handed to me by a 3d person allows me to apply wind, seismic, gravity, etc. to said model AND analyze all in one integrated package, then I might start to get excited. If that package also delivers code compliant calculations that are consistent looking and "work", now they really have my attention. Now if that model flags changes made by other disciplines and gives me a report on everything that has changed-then we are getting somewhere.
This is sort of what REVIT is claiming, but maybe too good to be true?
I was kind of wondering whether anyone thought it would be worth investing time in this, to, in essence become the BIM structural person? I have seen CH2M is pushing towards it...for some it will be a fad, for others a lifestyle. I doubt it will make or break anyone or any company. Like others have pointed out. Once you are handed a "cookie cutter" CVS building, you are really just checking what has already been researched and developed by CVS corporate, or any other of those type companies with strong corporate design teams.
One last note:
The Tool should fit your style, the Tool should not dictate the style or implementation. In this age of technological wonders and marketing we are being bombarded by Tools that are supposed to make our lives easier, faster, more efficient, etc. When in actuality, we have to decide if we want to become a slave to this new Tool or not. When is the last time you did not access a computer for instance, or email, or use your PDA phone? Do these Tools make us better Engineers and problem solvers?
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
Correct, I do not think that a tilt-up structure with metal deck on steel joists needs a full blown BIM model, like a Home Depot or warehouse. Neither does a block and bar joist building, like a Wal-Mart or a Target or a Steel Frame with light gage metal studs similar to a CVS or strip mall.
Now would the Experience Music Project in Seattle that I worked on benefit from a BIM model, yes it would. But we did have a 3D model of that structure, but I wouldn’t call it a BIM model.
Would using Revit decrease your CAD time on any of these projects, yes to all of them. But Revit is a tool to accelerate our structural drafting just as Civil 3D accelerates our Civil technicians. Both programs work better and faster then AutoCAD alone.
I support using Revit to create our 2D drawings. I just don’t support BIM models for your typical everyday structures that account for the majority of buildings Structural Engineers do.
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
RE: BIM - The Craze of Building Information Modeling
http://www.gostructural.com/article.asp?id=1591