Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
(OP)
In my research of Smokey's engine Something Has struck me that no one seems to metion. When the air/fuel mixture is heated up past the Turbo (check valve), a lot of pressure is created down stream .When the intake valve opens, this pressure is directed to the top of the piston much like combustion pressure. This seemes to me to be the most important factor in making this engine more efficient. He has used the exhaust heat from the power stroke to expand the airfuel charge thus creating another power stroke.Instead of intake,compression,power,exhaust as a conventional four srtoke, he has power/intake,compression,power,exhaust.What do you think?thread71-78116





RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
SMOKEY44211 already mentioned detonation. Detonation at or after TDC will increase efficiency of any engine. If detonation only occurs at partial throttle, engine is possibly capable to handle the pressure peaks.
Honda actually came up with this activated radical combustion engine on 2 cycle engines h
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Franz
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RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
I recall a lot of thermally fatigued manifold flanges and other heat stress related issues.
Good post guys
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
First, some Smokey Yunick credentials that are undisputable, traceable by documentation and numerous photos...B-17 pilot in WWII (1942-43, crash landed two bombers that were so shot up they failed structurally upon landing), member of Flying Tigers (1943-1944), helicopter pilot (1970's-80's), casanova (forever), motorcycle racer (1938-40), inventor (lifelong), head of Chevrolet racing development (1955-1956), Head of Ford racing (1957-1958), Head of Pontiac Racing (1959-1962), won Nascar Championships in 1951 and 1953 with Hudson, won Daytona 500 twice, won Indianapolis in 1960 (almost again in 1969, hose clamp prevented it), created the angle plug head for Chevrolet, the extended reach spark plug in your car today, etc., etc. Made and lost several fortunes, successfully searched for gold, silver and oil in Equador, was automotive consultant to Ford, Chevrolet, and Chrysler at various times in his life, knew Henry Ford II by first name, Bunkie Knudsen was his best friend, Pete Estes, Harley Earl, Mickey Thompson, Bruton Smith, Ed Cole, Zora Duntov, Richard Petty, John DeLorean, and Werner Von Braun were friends...
The hot vapor engine not only existed but was installed into at least 6 different makes of vehicles...after a thirty minute ride in the car, Ford, GM, Chrysler, DeLorean, BMW, Volvo and Volkswagen were all interested. DeLorean immediately offered 20 million (with the backing of H.L. Hunt in Texas) with a formal contract to be signed on a Thursday. DeLorean was arrested for drug possession on the preceding Tuesday, and the deal fell through. For Smokey's direct account of what happened, see page 525 of his autobiography "Best Damned Garage in Town".
Cars in which Yunick hot vapor (adiabatic) engines were installed included the DeLorean (3 cylinder), Ford Fiesta (1 cylinder), Volkswagen (2 cylinder), Pontiac Fiero (4 cylinder), Chrysler (4 cylinder) and Buick Skylark (3 cylinder). Some of these cars still survive, and Smokey's daughter has the Volkswagen and the Pontiac Fiero is owned by a collector in South Carolina. A 3 cylinder engine is in the Smithsonian, along with his trademark hat.
All automotive engineers that tested the hot vapor engines came away amazed with the power vs. gas mileage, as well as the tremendous lowering of emissions because of the engines efficiency. Puzzling to them was the lack of a spike that should have killed the engines, and they tried everything imaginable to get the engine to spike but to no avail. Finally, just before his death in 2001, GM bought the rights to the homogenizer, the very item that Smokey considered the brains of the system. You will see it soon because there are several experimental cars under way that will stimulate the technology, not GM designs but rogue designs by guys like yourselves, or should I say the doers and not the theoreticists who talk it to death...
I was lucky to have met Mr. Yunick in his later years, 1999, at Lowe's Motor Speedway, and told him that I thought that he was one of the most gifted engineers to have ever lived. After asking him about the status of the hot vapor engine he seemed to brighten up, and stated that he was leaving it as his legacy, that he realized in the early 70's that the fossil fuels would not last forever. Asked about his most proud moment in life, after his wife Margie and kids, he mentioned the hot vapor engine and the number of engineers from around the world that tested it trying to get it to fail, and the fact that all left amazed at the performance and lack of emissions.
Guys, instead of talking about the hot vapor engine research it, make one (Smokey did, so can you, he tells you how), and put it into a car. This solution is so much better than a hybrid, a corn car (ethanol), etc.
...just do it...bruce kepley, Monroe, NC, USA
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
How is it that an amazing technology developed 20 years ago that could forever change the auto industry (fuel economy, reduced emissions, etc.) be kept out of production for so long?
-Reidh
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
On another note, it ultimately could be a bridge across the gap between piston engines and turbines. Further development might see the pistons, and other inefficient junk, eliminated.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
-Reidh
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Though they would make great space heaters.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Besides: Combined cycle powerplants (gasturbine + steamturbine) reach efficiencies of 60%.
As far as the Smokey concept goes:
It's also a fact, that downsized engines (and a bunch of other concepts) are more efficient than 'conventional engines' and still not all cars have downsized engines (probably because costs always play a role as well.)
Besides: Aren't the piston engines of today not significantly more efficient and cleaner than they were 20 years ago?
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Or how about 100% less fuel? (ie none)
Explain your reasoning.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
At the risk of of posthumously insulting the guy who hired me, there are advantages to hot vapor most of which are accomplished with better transmissions of today and fuel injector spray qualities, vastly improved mixture prep and transport and improved combustion geometry, reduced ring drag, reduced ring crevice volume, etc. Higher efficiencies at lower rpm's accomplish the same thing at a lower cost. The advantages of hot vapor cycle are real but expensive and not practical in all climates. When I worked there it became obvious that the system depended on huge manifold volumes and going closed loop would be damn difficult due to long fuel transport delays. I am not faulting the man but TBI FI was needed and did not make the cut, I beleive, since Smokey did not feel he could trust me or others with calibration.. I urged him and annoyed Ralph with comments about adopting FI. Again, knowing it would piss my elders off, I mentioned FI till the cows came home if for no other reason to compensate for Durability issues that were as real then as they are now.
There was a lot of good thinking that might have seen light of day had Smokey allowed me or someone more qualified to apply FI to HVC but even with best case injection and calibration the system then required massive manifold volumes. Long after being fired the second time :) I built a 2.2 liter HVC that essentially required way different cam, taller gearing, a lot more manifold heat with less volume and other stuff. I wound up with a modified IHI, an expensive pile of aluminum and a set of wheels that hauled ass like a wildcat after a tabasco enema all while knocking down 40mpg in a dodge minivan.
Respectfully, Turbo
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
a priority in this country, the technology to do so is
in production now. Several years ago you could buy a
inexpensive, comfortable Volkswagen turbo diesel here
in America that could get 46 MPG, it’s no longer available
here, something about emissions. For a little more money
you can purchase a filthy gas guzzling pick-up truck, go
figure.
SMOKEY44211, do you know more about the chemical
radicals in the fuel, is this something that was added?
Pre-flame OH radicals must have been a problem with the
mixture pre-heating, I’d like to understand how they dealt
with this. Or perhaps they were the first to experiment
with HCCI! With the influx of money going into
understanding gasoline compression ignition, they have
found that auto-ignition can be controlled with out
experiencing destructive detonation. I suppose Smokey
knew that long ago.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
A quick search finds this: "Indolene is used extensively as a
standard certification fuel in both the automotive and oil
industries" Is there something about the chemical composition
of indoline that helps to control radical formations?
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Yall have fun.. here is some good reading.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Based on real quick calcs, it looks to me that
10% fuel economy allows 2.5% cost increase
20% fuel economy allows 5% cost increase
100% fuel economy allows 15% cost increase
assuming fuel saved pays for increased car payments for the first six years.
After the car is payed off, you would then see savings in pocket. Hmmm...
These are really approximate numbers, but should be the correct order-of-magnitude.
yes?
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Interestingly enough, when you plot gas prices in US from 60's to now, averages to about 6% inflation...
Higher fuel cost=blessing to engineers?
I guess that it will lead to more jobs in some areas...
That ignores direct and indirect costs of fuel costs borne by engineers and families, of course.
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
"Fuel tax increased" looks the same to consumers and engineers as increased fuel price.
Higher fuel cost means that a higher cost premium is justified for any incremental gain in fuel efficiency.
want a copy of my primitive spreadsheet?
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
My point is: One should try to find ways to increase efficiency (make concepts such as hot vapor engines viable) without having to increase the net burden on the consumers.
As long as one lives in a country that doesn't pump its own fuel what's the point of sending all this money abroad and not use it to increase efficiency instead?
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
I didn't state my results clearly, though we agree on the net result:
The "100% improvement" means 50mpg instead of 25mpg.
at 1000 mpg, (essentially zero fuel usage) it comes out around 28%, or an allowable new car cost of $32200 instead of $25000.
rephrase:
MPG Cost Benefit per year after paid off
25.0 $25,000.00 $0.00
50.0 $28,700.00 $1,100.00
1000.0 $32,200.00 $2,200.00
Jay Maechtlen
http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
not show the complete benefit. If fuel consumption is
reduced by 100% then we should realize similar reductions
in HC and CO emissions, more valuable that the personal
savings.
In addition supply and demand of fuel should drive fuel
cost down, for the consumer and the world, it's a win win
situation.
RE: Smokey's Hot Vapor Engine
Regards
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