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Unusual Behavior?
4

Unusual Behavior?

Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
OK, I'm on my lunch time so I can post this without feeling like I'm taking away from my work...sorry this is so long.

I've worked at this company for about 4 weeks.

I'm a structural CE, 5 years out of college.  I started my own non-engineering business a couple of years ago when I was laid off from a really great engineering job. I've found it necessary to keep a "day job" to pay the bills (3 years for a business to show a profit is not unreasonable...trust me).  I went back to work in engineering full-time last Spring.  I worked at a small steel fabricator for 3 months doing work that didn't really require any engineering background, coworkers weren't all that welcoming (one of the cad people kept slamming into the back of my chair every time she left the room-she scared me a little) & the business was financially shaky (the bankers kept "visiting" the office) so I kept searching and switched mid-summer to a concrete company.  The manager talked me into an estimating position rather than the open engineering position I applied for.  I figured it was more money than at the unfriendly financially unstable place so I switched.  A little bump in pay, benefits were worse but right now, keeping my business going is my main priority so the cash was more welcome than benefits would have been.

Anyway, long story short, they planned to fire the other estimator once I learned the job.  This guy knew everything there was to know about precast - more than I could ever hope to learn.  They hired an engineer right after I took the estimating position.  When I found out, 3 months after taking the job, that Estimator #1 was getting fired I raised a stink and got myself fired instead.  That had been the manager's plan all along - he had it in for Estimator #1 and he acted like Napoleon, firing and hiring whenever he felt like it.  Come to find out, it took them over a year to get me in there and right after I got canned, the new engineer quit, too--"conflict with management" was what I heard.

OK, so now I'm at business #3 for the year.  Been here a month.  Have had absolutely NO training, which I've found is normal, even had to install all the software I need on my own computer.  Whatever, I'm smart, I'll figure it all out eventually.  Pay is better than the estimating position, so that's a plus.  I live in an area with the second worst unemployment rate in the country, so I'm grateful to have work, right?

Well, I was hired in with the expectation that I'll get my PE right away and start stamping stuff.  Hmmm...  so far, in 4 weeks, the "designer" that sits next to me has made 2 rather large errors on jobs and I've spent my time trying to clean up that mess.  The boss, who wanted to pray over hiring me to see if it was the right thing to do, turns out to have a vocabulary of a trucker (no offense to truckers) and just wants the "problems" to go away, which is why he hired me.  I don't get to actually check jobs before they go to production...I'm just expected to fix things after the mistakes occur.

The designer next to me has a chip on his shoulder about me being hired - so far I've ignored it but the comments are getting more hostile.

And, he sits and watches DVD's on his second monitor all day, while he designs.  He really likes Stargate:Atlantis.

Is it just me, am I finding poor places to work, or is the entire world like this now?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

No. Just do not join the crappy firms. If your own businees can keep you afloat, either quit this job and look for other. You will find a suitable employer eventually, there are more good firms out there than bad ones.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I don't think there is anything especialy strange about the people or places you have encountered so far.  Just know there are much better situations and companies out there to be found.

I work in manufacturing, and this type of work has its own strange quirks, but every industry does.  I would talk to your boss, tell him the advantages of finding errors and mistakes before they happen.  I think he should be open to the idea, and you can check the designer's work.  The designer should embrace the idea of having a second pair of eyes on his work.  If he doesn't, he'll become unhappy and probably find a different job.  All the better for you and your company.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
If my own business could support me, it would, but it is breaking even and paying the wages of the people that work there...not enough for me.  Opening the business cost a whole lot more than I expected and I'll be working both jobs for a couple of years to pay that debt off.

Unemployment in this tri-county area is 2nd highest in the nation...during 2004/2005 there were NO structural positions posted in the local paper...and they are few and far between now, which is why I jumped at the estimating job (turns out I love estimating & would gladly go back to it).

My friend the Designer has no intentions of quitting.  He has no college background (which he lets me know about once a day with his comments to others) and he has it made.  Stargate must be over because now he's watching some other movie.  Why would he leave when there are few prospects out there for any of us, let alone someone without a degree?

My boss is interesting...he's working on his next great idea to patent.  He keeps straightening the piles of papers on my desk.  That drives me nuts.  He'll ask me something and when I answer he'll say, "no, it's this..."  Yesterday he asked a question about something I was working on and when I said it was failing because of screw pullout and he said, "no, because of bending..."  He hadn't even looked at what I was working on!  He's not an engineer but hey, he owns the company, so he must be right???

I'm going over some connection details from an outside engineering firm and I'm finding what I'd call outright mistakes on the work- did no one ever look over anything here, or do they just stamp it as received and pass it on?

I need the paycheck right now so I'm keeping quiet but I can't quite see myself staying here long enough to start sealing anything.  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Thanks michfan,

I was feeling disgruntled with my job today but after your tale I feel much better.

Take solace in the fact you are improving the lives of your fellow engineers.

The best of luck to you.

Frank "Grimey" Grimes

RE: Unusual Behavior?

as they say... born naked, wet and cold... and it gets worse!

Dik

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Geez, Grimey - I'm so glad I could help improve your day!  We got paid today so I'll be back again Monday.  winky smile

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Why on earth would anyone live in a place that has the worst unemployment in the nation?
Can't you just go to a place where there is demand for structural engineers?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Well, Atlas06, I did consider relocation.  I also considered a long commute (2-3 hours wouldn't have been out of the question) but I'm a little tied to my business right now, so moving really wasn't an option.  And hey, I'm obviously smart because I have no trouble landing the job...heh heh.  Just keeping my mouth shut to keep the job is what I find hard!  That was my first firing, by the way.

But as you can see from my handle, I'm a true fan of Michigan.  I love this state.  We have all four seasons, usually, and it's a beautiful place to live.  That, and I could never sell my house because right now it's gutted down to the studs.  I'm only about half done renovating it so it really isn't sellable in the current state.  And, there are houses in my town that have been for sale since I moved in, almost four years ago.  This area of Michigan has really had a tough time with manufacturing closings.  We've literally lost thousands of jobs here.  The company I worked for with 1500+ employees, the job I loved, closed up and moved south this past fall, and that was a world-known company.  Times are rough here but they'll get better.  I'm an optimist, I guess.

It's true, though--I've always leaned toward manufacturing for jobs.  I just don't think I could work in the consulting world.  I'm not someone who can sit at a desk all day, crunching numbers.  With all my jobs there's been a huge variety of work, travel, problem-solving, project management, etc.  I'm used to wearing many hats - when I have to sit and do just one task over and over I start to think I'll go out of my mind!  So is it just structural jobs in manufacturing that are so loopy or do you all find consulting to be just as much?  How do I tell that the place is not quite right during the interview?  I pretty much got the offer at the end of my interview for this job, and my new boss told me to write down on an application how much money I needed.  Should that have tipped me off???  There was no formal offer - it's a small family-run company.  Are my experiences extremely abnormal, or has anyone else jumped jobs like this?  Should I offer my DVD collection to Mr. Designer, try to befriend him?  I get the impression he's a little threatened by me - is there a way to let him know I don't want his job?    

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Michfan:
   You described my last engineering job completely, and until I read that you are in Michigan, I actually thought you may have worked in that same small dysfunctional-family run company in Connecticut (including the getting bumped on the back of the chair when people walked by).  You won't change the people by being kind to them; Mr. Designer is probably jealous of you.  Just for fun, you may want to bring in a framed copy of your diploma and/or copy of your PE license to hang in your cubicle.  But don't be surprised if it "accidently" falls.  Quietly look for another job and get out of there as soon as you can.
   After my experiences, I got out of manufacturing altogether and am now in construction.  So far, the people are much more normal.
   Good luck to you!

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I'm willing to accept the assertion that the number of functional companies exceeds the number of dysfunctional companies.  I have no factual basis to support the assertion, but its converse is too depressing to consider.

Answer this:  If you found a good job in a company that was stable, and had a boss who wasn't a nut case, would you leave?  Of course not.  Nobody else would either.  You have to wait for someone to die or retire.

The vast majority of jobs that are available, are available precisely because they are 'broken' in some way:
- Company doomed.
- Boss crazy.
- Boss, or company, unethical.
- Co-workers crazy, homicidal, dishonest.

Your employer is blessed with all of the above, in various proportions.

There is no percentage in telling the boss how to do things better.  He is already doing them perfectly, from his perspective.  I almost said, "Just ask him", but on reflection I don't think that's a good idea, either.

Find another job, then quit.

Keep your eye on the obits.  winky smile

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Unusual Behavior?

You say you are a structural.  You say there are no structural jobs in your area.

Confucius say, "There is great adventure in moving."

RE: Unusual Behavior?

" framed copy of your... your PE license to hang in your cubicle"

Do this anyway. It's professional.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

You have to watch out in these smaller companies.  

My experience - I worked in a small firm just starting out with 8 people.  The boss was crazy, scatter-brained, and highly distrustful of people.  Guess what, the entire business and everyone in it reflected those traits.

Things were disorganized and panic was the typical order of the day.  The other workers started to mimic the boss in his every mannerism and personality trait.  When something went wrong it was not a matter of fixing it and moving on, it was a matter of finding out who to punish.  Everybody talked about everybody else behind their backs.

After one year I high-tailed it out of there.  Now I know just how important it is to analyze the man or woman in charge of a place before you decide to work there.  You've got to be able to look past the marketing job they will do to get you on board.  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

What is up with these managers/bosses and everyon else who somehow forgot basic decency, politeness and manners?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

They didn't forget; they never had manners, etc.

A lot of small businesses exist because the owner can't stand working for someone else ... or no one will tolerate him as an employee.  

The revelation above occurred to me while representing an owner at an industrial condominium association meeting.  

Picture 300 Emperors squabbling, over everything, and nothing.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I have found that the underlying issue that makes a place good to work at or not is whether the people there feel secure in their employment.  If they are secure, there is minimal back-stabbing or personal conflicts, people take advice or criticism well, they accept changes like a new guy.  Once they start to feel insecure (like when a project starts to wind down, or the economy sucks), you start to see signs of friction and petty conflicts.  Obviously, Michigan manufacturing is not the secure place it historically has been. There are many types of structural engineering jobs that do not involve "sitting behind a desk" all day (maybe if you worked outside in winter in Mich. for a while, that wouldn't seem so bad anyway!). Look elsewhere!

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Did you ever show to your boss how much money did he save because you detected the errors before they went to the workshop into production scale?
Every boss likes more $$$ than anything else.
Show him the money and he will like you.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Well, as I said, I've only been here a month.  Not enough time to prove anything yet.  I'm still trying to teach myself the software!  

I just think, that after the first month, I can see how things are going to go here.  At my interview, when he mentioned he was looking for someone to handle "problems" as they came up, I asked how often they had problems.  "Oh, hardly ever" was the answer.  Should I have asked for proof of that???  Because if I'd known, I'd definitely have asked for a higher salary!  

I also see a clear lack of common sense, but I've seen that at every place I've worked, to some degree.  Here it is just really extreme.  I've been given some design software to use, but it's really limited.  My boss wants me to be able to do FEA on some components, so I explained that the software he has really won't do that - his answer, "Call the college that I bought it from and tell them to make it work."  Um, yeah, I'll get right on that...let me just dial them up.  Then his dad, part owner of the company, says to me, "you need to starting thinking outside of the box".  ???    I don't even begin to know what to say to something like that.

I hate to jump ship so fast - I don't want my resume' looking like swiss cheese, so how do I explain 3 jobs in a year at the next interview?  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Write it up as a TV script.... it'd be better than "The Office" and you can have a separate income.

Seriously, I think you can always gain the sympathy of an interviewer when explaining this type of company and why you left so quick but I would suggest you get your CV/Resume out there again pretty quick because this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

There is no law that says that because you made the mistake of joining this company that you should compound the mistake by staying with them.

You might also want to consider what would happen if a mistake gets out into the real world: who will they make the scapegoat? Dad? the Son? the Stargate fan (in a high unemployment area, this guy must know where the bodies are buried).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Unusual Behavior?

michfan,

Hmmm. We need someone to handle the problems as they come up - but, they hardly ever (come up)? Hmmm.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

If your boss needed someone to handle the problems, it probably means either there are a lot of problems, or your boss doesn't like dealing with them and is trying to pawn them off on someone else.

Like others said, you should probably look for a better  job.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
I'm on break again, still not wasting company time...  smile

Well, the "taking care of problems" was supposed to be an occasional thing - my main "job description", if you could call it that, was to come up with connection details and get them engineered/sealed, learn the estimator/designer/detailer jobs so I could handle overflow when needed, and as I understood, to check stuff before it hits the shop.

Silly me, guess I misunderstood.  

This was a new position - they hadn't had a structural person working here before.  No one has been cataloging details, coordinating things, etc.  They don't even have any code books or other reference materials here.  I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall right now - I have nothing to draw from, I'm seeing even more problems cropping up, and even the problems I've been given to handle aren't really mine to handle - there was another family member, a cousin, doing the RFI's and he seems to want to keep at it, even though I'm supposed to be taking that on.  He's either doing things before I get a chance, or he's re-doing them after I do them, and he doesn't leave a paper trail, so I'm asking questions of GC's and being told that they already talked to him.  

I submit stuff to the person who currently is sealing the drawings and I get no response - it's been 2 weeks now on some of the stuff I sent in, and when I call and ask about it, I get told they are out of the office or home because of the weather.  I'm a pretty forceful person, but I'm tired of getting blown off just because everyone here has accepted that in the past.  

Last Friday's crisis was undersized steel on a project - I suggested calling the structural engineer on the job and asking him to re-size his columns and they all looked at me like I was crazy.  Guess that was a little too far out of the box, that time.

Day 18 at the new job...OK, tonight I started searching the want ads again...
 

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Don't let them kick you out before you've got a place to go...

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I suggest that you start seeing again (or for the first time)"The Monty Phyton's Flying Circus". Maybe you can join your stargate colleague and see it together.

For what I see, it seems that the owners of your company are quite fans of non-sense.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Hey michfan, reading this thread with interest. Any chance you could expand your own business? Sounds like that might be prudent considering your other options.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

MikeH,
From my experience there are more dysfunctional companies out there than functional. This includes all the certified companies, too. Sorry to disallusion the idealists.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
My first business is a retail store.  It has absolutely nothing to do with engineering.  I opened it when I was laid off from another engineering job and was burned out from 60 hour weeks. It seemed like a good plan.

Now I work more like 80's.  Still burned out, but it's going to pay off.  The store is breaking even pretty much, but for now I need a dependable cash flow because the business has seasonal ups and downs.

I do want 3 stores eventually - I'm hoping by the 5-year mark to open 2 more.  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Hi michfan:
Sometimes, situations and problems in life push so hard as to make you look for other alternatives. At the end you are better-off. I kind'a feel identified (as well as the other fellas) I even have a similar situation as you (see thread731-163669) Our business is going well, and I still work as a designer. We are in the battery business and as well as you, I have plans besides engineering. Sounds hysterical, but sometimes my wife and I talk about having our own factory plant, yes, building, manufacturing and selling batteries. That's in fact one of our next goals. Follow your dreams!
regards

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
l3city,
I know exactly what you mean.  I don't regret going to college for engineering (I also have a degree in architecture which I've found not quite so useful...) because so much of what I learned I'm able to use in my everyday life.  Yes, I really do use algebra every so often.  winky smile

I do wish I'd branched out and taken more business or accounting classes, but I can still do that, as I have time.

There is really no such thing as job security in today's world.  My dad spent 35 years working at the same place and he can't understand why I can't just be "happy" somewhere.  It's not a question of being happy - I'd be happy driving a lawnmower all day.  

It's a question of being proud of what you do, feeling like you've accomplished something at the end of the day, and not stuffing your moral standards under a cushion just to get ahead at your job.  Watching my co-worker watch movies all day and not saying anything to him is hard for me.  Does he think that is fair to the owner of this company?  Does he realize how hard he's made my life, in just a few shorts weeks, with all the mistakes???

I took my 401k and a business loan and worked a full year to start up.  We've been open 18 months now, and every month is better than the one before it.  I know I'm on the right track.  I wish I'd had a partner in the business though - it's hard to find time to do the small things everyday.

Right now it's a struggle to pay all the bills, but I know eventually the loan will be paid off and my customer base will grow and someday there will be profits.  That's my job security.  Maybe it is a control issue, but I'd rather work my tail off for myself then give 60 hours a week to a company that lays off all it's workers in the end and moves to Texas (that happened to me, too).

Hang in there - everybody needs batteries, just like all kids need clothes (that's my business).  

I guess I should just be thankful I have a source of income, however odd this place might be, and take everyone's advice to look for something else in the meantime.  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I know its not easy spending 40 hours a week doing stuff that isn't fulfilling but would it be possible to take your desire for professional pride and job satisfaction and focus all that towards your store? Ignore the day job as just that - a day job. Seeing as your values don't really align with the company's anyway you could maybe even take a leaf out of your co-workers book and do those small things you don't have time for in work hours. That way you can buy more time for yourself to do the accounting and business classes and with luck get to the point where you no longer need the day job that much sooner.

I know this isn't exactly the professional attitude we should display as engineers but from your description of the place you are working, not caring and not trying to improve things might mean you suddenly fit right in!

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Advising someone to do less than their best is an intersting suggestion....

RE: Unusual Behavior?

4
But she's right--if doing your best is banging your head against a wall, what's it really worth?  The satisfaction of a job well done only goes so far.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Unusual Behavior?

This reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon where Dilbert gets an assignment from his boss right before lunch that is needed by 1:00. Dilbert realizes that he can either work hard on it and skip lunch, or he can half-ass it and eat on time. The last frame shows him saying "I just traded my work ethic for this banana", and Wally says "I ate that banana years ago".

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I am reminded of a statement I heard from a colleague in manufacturing engineering a while back--"If I wasn't working here, I would just be doing some other sh**ty job."

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
I guess you hit the nail on the head, Swall!  If each of my last three jobs have been a nightmare, what good would changing companies do, unless it was to take a higher salary, enabling me to pay off the debts faster and get back to my business full-time all the faster...

I'm sorry to say this, but I'm sure glad to hear I'm not the only engineer out there who feels this way.  I thought there was something wrong with me.  I'm more normal than I ever imagined!  winky smile

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Michfan....3 years is a long time for a small business to become profitable.  Have you considered that perhaps you should decide to go all the way into business or get out?

As for consulting engineering, not all of them are "sit behind a desk and crunch numbers" jobs.  I've been a consulting engineer for over 30 years, and while sitting behind a desk and crunching numbers full time does not interest me, the problem solving aspect of consulting engineering does interest me.  Some of it is number crunching, some of it is experienced evaluation on the fly, some of it is research, but mostly it is just the application of the engineering thought process and common sense to resolving issues and problems for clients.  That can be immensely satisfying....don't rule it out.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Michfan,

I live in mid-Mich, and I like it. My last job lasted long enough to qualify for a small pension. Now I am retired with a side line that brings in some money.

When they ask, I say that I live north of tornado alley, west of megaloposis, clear of the hurricanes, and clear of unbearable summer heat. We have two cold months, two hot months, and the rest is just fine. And the housing is fair priced, taxes a little high, but the living is very agreeable. The people are nice around here, too.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Michfan,

You could always move to Columbus! tongue

Plenty of work there!  Plus, I think you'd get along with the local OSU fans!

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Michigan is a great state, just poorly run at the moment, I'm afraid.  Losing thousands of jobs every year, and we are becoming a service state instead of a manufacturing state, which is sad.  We were known for cars and furniture.

I, too, love the seasons, love the weather, love being able to drive a short distance to the big lake, etc.  I love my house, my yard, my dog and sometimes my cats.  

I love my store, even if it is making me gray much too young.  

I don't want to move - my family is here, my life is here.  I just want to find a place to work where the people around me are friendly and awake enough to do their job.  All I've done here so far is fixing mistakes that should have been caught with a checking process, which I'm working to get started, at least.   The plant manager told me today that we never do anything right the first time.  Now there's confidence!

I've been at this job now less than 2 months (wow, is that all?  Feels a lot longer).  I've yet to master any of the software and I still can't figure out if there is any rhyme or reason to the job folders, or where they even are kept half the time.  Now I just sound like a whiner, don't I?  

Mr. DVD-watcher is sitting in Mexico this week, on vacation.  So the work has been piling up on my desk, even though I've not really had exposure to most of it since starting.  The owner's nephew sent me a nasty email yesterday saying I "bad mouthed" the company to someone (guilty until proven innocent around here, I guess) and I didn't have a clue what he was talking about and told him so.  His comment in his email was "I don't even know what the h*** it is you do around here".  Well, buddy, neither do I!  This is the same guy who came up behind me while I was working and dropped a set of plans from about 3 feet in the air onto my desk, trying to get a reaction out of me, I guess?  What a schmuck!  That was enough to get me looking at monster.com last night.  It's just frustrating when you know there are good companies out there to work for...you just have to keep looking until you find them.  I'm really not a good judge during an interview, I'm learning.  My first impressions have been dead wrong lately!

Oh, and as to moving to OSU territory, I'd have to get rid of all my U of M sweatshirts then, right???   smile

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Well, you're definitely in a bad place.  Nephew is a moron.  If he doesn't know, he should ask, and continue asking until he does know.

TTFN



RE: Unusual Behavior?

In forty+ years, I've never been able to gauge a company from the outside.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Maybe a new rule for the next job:  don't hire on with family-run business.  You're always at a disadvantage as an outsider.

(I'm a little prejudiced here--an acquaintance of mine was run off from her last job because a family member decided he wanted her position, and she wasn't willing to take the demotion to work under him.)

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Wow, I kind of feel like that is where I'm heading.  The owner has been gone a lot lately - Comes in for just an hour or two and then leaves again.  The two sons would rather sit and play with their ipods, and they are pretty open about it.  The DVD guy is back from vacation and he's told everyone not to bother him today because he's just back from vacation.  I'm just avoiding the nephew whenever possible...

It's good to know, Mike, that maybe it's not that I'm a bad judge of character- maybe I just need to get out of the manufacturing/small company format.  When the owner mentioned he needed to pray over the idea of hiring me, I figured it couldn't be such a bad company.  I don't know how I get myself into these situations...it's so frustrating.  There are a few jobs in the classifieds that I've avoided sending resumes' to because I know how high the turnover is at those companies - not good.  Maybe I'll just try sending a few resumes out cold to some of the bigger engineering firms in town.  Can't hurt!




RE: Unusual Behavior?

"When the owner mentioned he needed to pray over the idea of hiring me, I figured it couldn't be such a bad company."

Huh.  If the owner mentioned to me the need to pray over the idea of hiring me, I'd probably run FAST in the opposite direction.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
You don't believe in divine intervention?

I pretty much count on it, the way my life's going...  winky smile

RE: Unusual Behavior?

If I believed in divine intervention, I'd probably still be scared--someone with the gall to ask God to perform an ordinary HR function is asking for a lightning strike and I don't want to be around when it happens!

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Small company, no HR.  So I can see why he's askin' for help from above...  he's sure got a bunch of winners here already.

I'm past the point of no return, I'm afraid.  After the staff meeting this week where my plea for a checking process went on deaf ears, I'm praying every day to find something new before I crack.

And checking the job listings faithfully, because He helps those who help themselves, I've heard...  

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Always look out for your professional integrity, being the only PE in the office means that you are the only one that officially should'know better'.

In other words cover your arse, dont compromise on structural issues, and dont stamp anything if you are not 100% happy with it.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Small family owned company can be a tour of madness. This one company was owned by two brothers who combatted each other. At the time of my leaving, one brother stole talent from the orig company to staff a competing company. In the old days there would have been murder/mayhem, but the offending brother and his progeny were summarily dismissed from the company.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

Michfan,

Why have you got people working for you if your company is not pulling a profit? Wouldnt it be more economical to do the work yourself until the company?

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
I make much more at my "day" job than what I pay out to have people helping me at the store.

They are there about 6 hours @ minimum, I work 8 hours at more than 3x that...several of them are family, so they help just to have something to do one day a week.  

Go to the SBA website and read the statistics on small business - it would scare most people away from starting one if they read it before taking the leap!  50% fail in the first year, 95% fail before the end of the 5th year.  95 PERCENT.  Wow.  And most businesses don't see a profit until well past the second year, that's fairly standard.  That is why the IRS allows business losses to be claimed for 2 out of every 3 years.  

This isn't a "work out of your home in your spare time" business, either.  It's a retail shop with inventory, thousands of $$ in fixtures, a $150 electric bill and $200 gas bill each month, $100 for a phone, $3500 rent, etc.  The overhead is huge.  Just cleaning the carpet will run $150.  And do you realize that while you pay fed, state and SS taxes from your paycheck, your employer is matching those contributions???  You are only paying half of what is required-they pay the other half.  

Most people don't have the slightest idea of what it costs to run a business.  People come into the store and say, oh, you must be raking in the money - this would be such fun, I've thought about doing this... oh, if only they knew!  My business plan to obtain financing ran 40 pages.  

But it is completely dependent on sales.  If people aren't buying, I won't make it.  And many businesses are seasonal - we have good months and bad months.  I could go on and on, but I've probably bored you to sleep by now!  Plus, it's time to go to my next job, at the store for 4 or 5 hours.  smile

RE: Unusual Behavior?

I thought that you would say that about earning more than youpay out.

I realise the costs and risks, I am looking at starting one up in a couple of years.

RE: Unusual Behavior?

(OP)
Well, I have lived through it, by the skin of my teeth, so I can try to give you a few pointers.

Cut your personal expenses to the bone.  Drop anything you don't need to survive - cable tv/satellite (you won't have time to watch it anyway - my brother tapes some stuff for me and I listen to it on Sundays while I work at the store - I've kept up on my sci fi channel that way!) If you can't live without a cell phone, drop your home phone.  Plan to eat cheaply, give up eating out.  If you can't make your mortgage payment & utilities by working a part-time job, find someplace cheaper to live.  I fell behind in my payments and it is really hard to catch up.  I managed but it's not been an easy road.

Start now cutting back.  Bank anything you can - you will need it later.  Get used to not going out to movies, out to eat, etc.  Two meals in a restaurant now can be a week's groceries when times are lean.  

Pay off your credit card debt.  All of it.  Get rid of any cards you don't need - your store cards like Gap, Sears, etc.  They drag you down if you need to get financing from a bank.  Send a letter and close them and instruct them to put "closed in good standing by card holder" on your credit reports.

Start writing your business plan now.  There are good books out there to help.  

Document your real expenses now. Do it for at least a year - sounds hard, but ask for receipts for everything you spend and start an excel spreadsheet and break it into categories - food, gas, clothing, utilities, etc.  You need to know how much you spend and what you spend it on.  That way you know truly how much living expenses will run you and what you will need to make off your new venture to survive.  This will give you a basis to decide if you need to work part or full time in addition to your business.  You also need to document your expenses in your business plan if you hope to get financing.

I could sit and tell you every mistake I made.  If I could do it over, I'd do a few things differently.  I'd have kept an engineering job the entire time I ran the store.  I'd have rented a less expensive storefront and had more to spend on advertising.  A lack of advertising can kill your business - it is probably the most important thing you can do to promote your start-up.  I would have cut up every credit card and kept just one small one for emergencies.  I put way too much on cards and it will take me years to pay it off, which means I continue the extra full-time work until it all is paid back.  Learning to live well below your means is a good way to start to get ready for going out on your own in business.

For me, I started all this in 2004 and had no idea the economy would tank the way it has.  You can't plan for every eventuality, but you can tighten your own finances up as much as possible to help you get through whatever happens.

Thankfully, I'm employable and was able to get a job again before I lost everything, and I've got friends and family members helping me at the store or I'd be likely in bankruptcy right now.  

Remember, 50% of small businesses will fail in their first year out.  If that doesn't stop you, nothing should!

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