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Architecture and Engineering

Architecture and Engineering

Architecture and Engineering

(OP)
Question:  I am currently searching for employment as a structural engineer.  It seems to me that most positions available are with firms either specializing in Architecture or Structural Engineering with Architects on the staff.  Are we seeing a trend at which the two are merging?  As an Engineer, I have seen it's tough to make money working with Architects.  Is this the solution to the problem?  If you can't beat'em, join'em?

Any comments?  

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Without architects (I like to call them “Technical Artists”), many engineers would not have jobs.  In the A/E world, there is a reason why the “A” comes before the “E”.  I would HATE to see what a building looks like without an architect having a design for a building of x many sq. ft.  Without the architect…..who would specify walls, doors, windows, furniture, room sizes, carpet, tile, fire stopping materials, egress paths, etc… not to mention all the bells and whistles on the exterior of the building to make it look “cool”.  I-beams, pipe, concrete, and conduit are very boring to look at.  

An engineer’s job is often to design and build around an architect’s design.  That is unless….we all want to live and work in a world constructed entirely of steel, concrete, and pipe.  Sounds a little boring don’t ya think?  

There are jobs out there for structural engineers where you do not have to “deal” with architects (probably some kind of finite element analysis, etc…) , but if you want to do design for buildings...your going to meet and do business with lots of architects.

I personally love architects.  They are generally more fun to talk to than engineers!

Sense

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Hi cjd97,

With the influx of "New Products" Engineers need to keep the Architects informed as to what the new materials can perform like in the long and short term. A new term that confuses many is STRUCTURAL AIR, FERROFOAM SCIPS etc. How do you wrap your mind around terms like these? I started a Bog with many new companies with pages on the net. They really can open your eyes to whats coming down the pike especially for the up and coming engineer.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

senselessticker,

In France, Architects are defined as "someone who is not macho enough to be an Engineer and not faggot enough to be a hairdresser".

Most Architects do not have a clue about engineering, I personnaly try to educate them on what it takes to bring a building together, that other trades such as MEP and maintenance folks interact with the project.
I can't tell you the number of architects that I had to fight to locate Mechanical equipment on the floor and not in the ceiling space. a nightmare of maintenance.
When they design something, it is their vision at all costs, the owner gets hosed.
The number of lousy buildings I've seen is way beyond any other trade's design.

Architects, especially the PM kind, that think they can judge MEP work. They are the back stabber kind, the fee hiding kind, the snicky kind, etc..

Unfortunately, they hold the dough. But all in all, I have come to (for lack of a better word, actually there is a better word but not suitable for printing) be highly suspicious of architects.

  

RE: Architecture and Engineering

"As an Engineer, I have seen it's tough to make money working with Architects."

When you say this, I am reminded of how difficult and unreliable architects were when it came to paying the subconsultant, my former employer, who engineered the HVAC, plumbing and power for their buildings.  Indeed, architects are responsible for much of the work engineers perform, especially in the fight for the due reward of assisting them.

atlas06's comment was funny, but what I hear from well-educated friends in the world of structural engineering is that many architects know as much, if not more, about the performance of structures than structural engineers. Their comments would apply to high rise and museum quality buildings, of course.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

If you want a job as a structural engineer and don't want to deal with architects, become a bridge engineer.  In buildings, architects are the PMs.

My experience with architects does not reflect well on their professionalism, when "cost effective" is the measure.  I could make a building look reasonably well, provide allowance for MEP with due regard to maintenance, and provide the owner with a real value.  The architects I have dealt with only care about appearances and will perscribe expensive measures to that end.  The result, from my point of view, is a structure that is more expensive than it needs to be, that will cost a fortune to maintain, but will be something he will proudly announce to his friends when he drives by indicating the building projects he was a part of.

Regarding the comment to cover up out concrete and steel, I don't know of an engineer that would not wish to have walls and fascia over his structure.  I don't know of an engineer that would want his structure to be uncomfortable to live in or expensive to maintain.  I do know architects that won't compromise a penny on their vision.  But it isn't their money, so why not.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

What a sorry mindset!. No professional is nor should be at mercy of others. This attitude only reflects lack of confidence in your own abilities.

Days of architects dominance are long gone. Today's buildings are much more technical and need serious engineering inputs from engineers.  There more than adquate independent engineering firms that do only Engineering and they may work with Architects, they are not at mercy of the architects.

Just try to excell in whatever you do, there are enough buyers of quality. I have changed jobs, just because I did not want to deal with Architects as prime professionals.

There are good and bad kind of every trade, just find the good ones and try to become one.



 

RE: Architecture and Engineering

(OP)
My intent was not to question the importance of one profession to the next.  I understand that Engineers needs Architects and vise versa.  I am used to working with Architects who hire us to provide them with whatever Engineering they need.  I just thought it was strange that I have been noticing many structural jobs are being offered by the Architects themselves.  Maybe it's easier that way, no arguing over fees.  I'm just having problems seeing myself actually working for an Architect.  I think I would feel like a sellout.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

I presume you are in the USA. I am not sure how much experience you have in consulting business. Any professional can bid/offer any services as a prime professional as long as he/she has arrangement with other trades as subconsultants or in-house staff.

In general, in the USA you will do well working for an indepedent Engineering firm than for an A/E firm. If you are relatively new, don't worry too much about this now and just get some experience so you can start dictating your own terms when the time is right.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

You must also bear in mind that many states legally require architects to be the lead design professional on most building projects. I've met architects who are very practical and a joy to learn from and interact with. I also met others that are absolutely weird & useless. And then there are the ones (the so-called leaders of modern architecture) who have a twisted idea that buildings should be works of art rather than functional entities.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

I suppose I've been spoiled by the architects I've worked with the past few years.  They always include the engineers to determine the general layout of the building (locations and size of electrical/com rooms, mechanical rooms, etc...)  I suppose its important to note that although we are an A/E firm, the A's only made up about 10% of the technical staff, the rest were engineers/designers, etc..

However, the PM's for new building design were ALWAYS architects.  And I think that is the way it should be.  20 years later when the building undergoes renovation the PM will likely be an engineer.  

I'm still not sure I understand why so many engineers have a problem with architects.  We need them as much as much as they need us.  Its no different than the way different engineers rely on each other in order to have a functional facility.  

RE: Architecture and Engineering

The problem architects are those who have not kept up with time and technology, and they are just too many of them. As I said not all are like that, but many are.

I do not have problem with all architects, only those who have no regard for other professionals.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

The other day, we did a feasibility study, in which we recommended an "All air system" using VAV with AHU's at each floor and get rid of the old Ceiling mounted Fan coil units.
Mr. architect PM went to the client and presented the opposite, saying that we recommend the fan coil units with air-cooled chiller, because he could not come up with 2 mechanical rooms to house the AHU's, too much work for him.

Mr Architect then came back to the engineers and said that the client wants the FCU's.

He is the only point of contact, so no one can argue you with him.

Architects are Criminals.

RE: Architecture and Engineering


I agree with Senselessticker

“Without architects (I like to call them “Technical Artists”), many engineers would not have jobs.”

When both collaborates we have things like this

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Then let the engineers be promptly paid for their contribution to the world of art...

RE: Architecture and Engineering

From a public safety standpoint, it is incomprehensible to me that an architect would rank higher than an engineer.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Architecture and Engineering

cousink,
Try Calder, a Mechanical engineer. And since you are a Civil Engineer, try www.viaducdemillau.com and you wil see what engineers can do. By the way, in Europe, they call bridges "ouvrages d'art" (works of art).

0707
try this instead, a spanish structural engineer/architect.
http://www.calatrava.info/buildings/Turning_Torso.asp
What you show there is nothing but a windowless structure. Always thought that your famous architect ought to include some daylight. Then again, designing with windows is a little difficult and not good for critics.

5-years olds with play dough can come up with windowless structures in my opinion, your architect needs to try some real buildings. He is only famous for museums that do not need windows (Bilbao and LA).

All over the world, architects must be top of the class to get to architectural school, in the US, only those that cannot make it into engineering schools go for architecture.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Geesh...folks. Do people feel the same way about accountants, HR, payrole, admin folks, etc...?  It's true that I believe engineers to be more tehcnically minded and in some regards "smarter" than architects.  

However I feel its the attitude of "everyone else is stupid" that inhibits the engineering profession as a whole from being worth more $$$.  I suggest some folks drop the chip off the shoulder... Such an attitude reminds me of the electrician who carries a grudge against electrical engineers because he thinks he "knows" more than the engineer.  The truth is...it is an entirely different profession, but he fails to realize it.  I'm seeing some of the same attitude towards architects.  And its certainly the reason why there are so many Architect PM's.

Please stop giving engineers a bad name.  It's costing me $$$ because of social perception.  

 





RE: Architecture and Engineering

(OP)
I apologize for asking the question.  My intent was not to start a rant, but apparently many of these people have ill feelings toward architects.  I was just commenting on the fact that many structural jobs available now are with firms who are more Arch than Eng.  I was wondering if that was the current trend.  

Life is good people.  Calm down

RE: Architecture and Engineering

"in the US, only those that cannot make it into engineering schools go for architecture."

Nah, that's architectural engineering.  (Actually I'm surrounded by people with AE degrees who would kill me for saying that.)

I don't know any architects who tried and failed at engineering.  I do know several civil/structural engineers who are thwarted architects.

But...I went to a university that had one of the top-ranked architecture programs in the U.S.  Very tough five-ear program, but it was all about aesthetic design.  All that "other" stuff (like how to make sure all the real-life stuff that makes the building function will fit in, and how to make the building stand up) is mostly handled through on-the-job training.  I just went and looked at their curriculum, and they have a whopping four structural courses required.

I figured with that, the architect comes up with the artistic vision and the engineer figures out what goes inside to make the thing stand up.  I was shocked to find out that there are projects on which the engineer is optional.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Before there were structural engineers, electrical engineers, HVAC engineers, fire protection engineers... there were architects and builders.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

And God created the builder.  And low the builder did build on the earth but the buildings of the builder were dull and collapsed.

So God created the architect, and he instructed the builder to build great structures of the most aesthetically pleasing form.  But verily I say unto thee the structures did still collapse.

So God created the Civil/Structural Engineer and low by means of calculation and analysis the Engineer did make the designs of the Architect stand firm on the fundament and did ensure that the builder built to the design.  But the structures were less beautiful than those of the Architect alone, and more costly than those of the builder alone and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth

And sorely did the Civil/Structural Engineer greave and plead with the Lord saying “Oh Lord that I was more intelligent and could be a ______ (fill in blank with your specialty) Engineer.  I wouldst give unto thee my slide rule, AutoCAD and soil science equations”.  But the ears of the Lord were death to them and he sent out environmental Engineers among the multitude…

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Then cometh the lawyers....

RE: Architecture and Engineering

I've got to agree with senselessticker.
We've beaten this thread to death with not much gain, and we ought let it to rest.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

It is also important to choose your field wisely. If you are an engineer and choose to be on a team that designs churches and schools vs. who designs bridges, high rises, power plants, industrial systesm, data centers or technical facilities you are bound to get furstrated.

There is also a reason architects are paid "less" now-a-days than engineers (in the USA).

No one said architects are stupid. I cannot believe some engineers think that they "need" architects to survive. Every professional should be able to survive on one's own, architects included. There is a place for everyone.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

without architects.....we'd all be out of work because of course no one would be making changes to building projects at the very last minute.  and without us, they'd be designing 8 inch fin cantilever walls at the top of skyscrapers that deflect like 6 feet, LOL.  they make the job interesting....but i don't think we're at their mercy.  

i do think that engineers are some of the most pretentious, arrogant, sensitive, insecure individuals out there.  i've never seen a group of people who get so worked into a tizzy and try to insult each other's intelligence.  

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Sometime I wish I had the courage to go back to school and be an architect.  I think I can really design cool houses where the common walls will stack up to foundation!!!!  And I will have spots to put columns all the way to foundation!!  Crazy architects!  smile

RE: Architecture and Engineering

Portugal Pavillion
EXPO98
By Álvaro Siza Vieira



Luis

RE: Architecture and Engineering

I'm one of those odd-balls who stayed in college way too long.  Got a bachelor's in architecture at one school, and a BSCE/MSCE in structual civil engineering at another.  

This world needs both architects and engineers, and Lord help the person who wants to be both.

After my junior year in architecture, I was frustrated by the lack of "reality" and started taking CE classes in structures, which I loved.

But after finishing my architecture degree, and taking just civil classes, I was frustrated by the lack of "art" in engineering.  Structural steel can be really ugly without something covering it!  

Is it so difficult in today's world to turn something functional, like a building, into something nice to look at?  I look at the Chrysler Building in New York City and I think , if they could do that in the 30's, why shouldn't we have that today?  And here I sit at work, solving problems, managing projects and averting crises and not designing a darn thing.   

RE: Architecture and Engineering

"Is it so difficult in today's world to turn something functional, like a building, into something nice to look at?  I look at the Chrysler Building in New York City and I think , if they could do that in the 30's, why shouldn't we have that today?"

We have the technology today.  The problem is money.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

In quite a few business models, it makes sense for engineers to hire architects (and other discipline engineers) on their staff to cover everything under one roof.  The E/A firm or A/E firm if you want to call it that - then has some competitive advantages in coordination and working together as well.  This model isn't going to work universally, but makes sense in a lot of markets.  I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes is becoming a trend.

RE: Architecture and Engineering

whyun:  I second that opinion.  Down at the lakeshore in Toronto is the beautiful Harris Water Filtration Plant, written about so eloquently by Michael Ondaatje's novel "In the Skin of a Lion".  Gorgeous inside and out-a real work of art. Beautiful materials used everywhere- limestone, marble, brass...  Built as a temple to public works, in the days when public institutions and public works were held in some considerable esteem.  

There's no shortage of people capable of designing and building structures like that- there's just a shortage of taxpayers willing to foot the bill for something as mundane as a "utility"!

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