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What's important on a resume¦...

What's important on a resume¦...

What's important on a resume¦...

(OP)
Most folks use the 'fudge' factor when writing their resume. Some don't and probably should. When is too much 'fudging' going to get you in trouble? If you’re in a position to review resume´s what are you looking for to help narrow down candidates? How do you decipher between “lies” and “factual”? Did you ever kick a resume´ to the curb only to find out that was ‘the guy’ you needed to hire? Let’s hear your experiences.

Edson-

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I think the most important thing is proper grammar and spelling.  Why would I want to hire someone that can't take the time to form coherent thoughts and do it in a manner that gives me a good first impression?  There have been many times that I have stoped half-way through a cover letter and set it in the "pass" pile because of a grammar/spelling mistake.

Lies and exaggerations can usually be caught during the interview if the right questions are asked.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Several years ago the management hired a "long-span bridge expert" but in their zeal they overlooked something significant: The person had 15 years experience and claimed to be chief engineer on 25 major bridge projects. Two or three  would've been believable but not 25. He lasted about six months.

In general, the progression of work should coincide with the years of experience.

On a resume I like to see what the person actually did. Too often, when people list projects they devote most of the text to describing the project rather than saying what they actually did. Technically, I was a structural engineer on a 23-span segmental conctrete bridge - 1100 meters long - and I could put it on a resume just like that. However, I would be  neglecting the fact that all I did was prepared bar lists and quantities.

Sometimes, when I get a resume I might know the name or someone at the company the applicant is from. Then I can get the real story.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Don't fudge a resume at all.

List your credentials, but most importantly, list what your accomplishments were, and how they benefited the company.

Everytime you write something on a resume, ask yourself... "So what?". Tell the people what you did, and why it was beneficial.

For example, take this:

"I was a structural engineer on a 23-span segmental conctrete bridge - 1100 meters long - and I could put it on a resume just like that. However, I would be  neglecting the fact that all I did was prepared bar lists and quantities.

OK, so all he did was prepare bar lists and quantities... so WHY was that important. How did it benefit the project. There must have been a benefit or he would not have had to do it.

People want to hear your success stories; they want to know that you will make a difference so you have to tell them how you made a difference.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Like FACS says do not lie, do not fudge. Your assumption that most people 'fudge' their resume is not wrong to begin with. They are the only ones that fail in their life somewhere.

If this is a entry level postion or a position with light experience, the employer are looking for a perfect match but just some basically smart that can be trained. So there there is no need to lie just state the fact and impress that you are a good learner.

If this is for an experience position, most employer "Will" check out your references, so lying there is even more dangerous.

Truth will come out sooner or later. Instead, try to convince that even if you do not have a perfect matching experience why would succeed if hired.






RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I think I was hired because I put on my resume that I am pretty good with creating website.  They were looking for a junior structural engineer and their website was pretty sad looking.

Now they have an awesome website and an awesome engineer smile.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I also don't fudge on my resume. I assume that others do not also.

The most important things on a resume? Well, it depends:

- name
- contact email/cell phone#
- position applied for

Everything else usually changes, tailored to the applied for position, and hiring company preferrences.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What's important on a resume¦...



There is a fine line between "fudge" and "tailor".

It's one of the classic stereotypical differences between men and women (exceptions exist on both sides)--a guy did XYZ once and it's "I have experience with XYZ", whereas a woman did XYZ a few times and she doesn't think she's qualified to list it on the resume.

I've been coached, not just by the "consummate BS artist" I mentioned in another thread but by quite upright people, not to undersell myself in a resume, application, etc.  For example, I was once filling out an online application and felt I was quite unqualified.  Talked to the person who already worked for that agency and he felt that I was plenty qualified, and that in most of the questions I needed to check a higher-level box than I did.  It's a matter of listing everything that technically applies rather than feeling the need to be totally secure in everything that's listed.  Is that fudging?  Depends on your definition.  It IS highly likely that most of my competitors for a position WILL be doing exactly that (describing the experience in the rosiest possible terms that could still be considered true), and I'd be doing myself a disservice if I didn't.

bridgebuster's right--the big description of the project with no description of what the person actually did is a common screen for lack of experience (and as I said in another thread, the licensing boards will sometimes fall for this).  I've seen that:  "XYZ?  Oh, sure, I have lots of experience with XYZ.  I supervised big project ABC that featured plenty of XYZ"--when all the while, that particular supervisory role doesn't actually do any XYZ but hands it off to another party entirely.

I guess "having experience with" is a really handy fudge/weasel phrase.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Generally I've focused on listing accomplishments on my resume. If interviewed I usually end up answering questions on how I achieved those accomplishments. I've never lied about any accomplishment so I've never had any problem explaining any of them.

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/ to learn why!

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I am remembering the old standby advice that a resume should be no longer than a page long.  Is this true?  It seems to me this would be next to impossible taking into account all of the above responses.  

Is it more important to discuss the nature of your former job positions or specific projects in which you were involved in?

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I have a one page resume with education and license information, chronology of previous companies with a brief description of responsibilities and types of projects.  I add an attachment with a representative list of projects organized by categories.

Like MadMango, when reviewing resumes, spelling/grammar is high on the list, followed by school and indication of increase in level of responsibilities.  Involvement with multi-million dollar project or similar don't impress me that much.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

The most important thing on a resume which absolutely must not be lied about or misspelt ... your name. smile

cheers

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

(OP)
I had a one page resume but it seemed I was skimming the surface on some of the skills and knowledge I had achieved over the years. Also, the font size was getting smaller and smaller just so I could fit it on one page. With a two page resume I'm able to convey what I deem important but as the saying goes it's only important to the folks reading it. I've met managers that want to read what you've done with a brief summary...not a bullet. I've met others that wanted bullets just so they could read thru them faster. It’s a tough audience to please regardless.

With a handful of darts you’re bound to get a bull’s-eye eventually.

Ed-

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I don't see how anyone with a full career could do service to their experience with a one-page resume, especially with today's reality that people do NOT stay at their jobs for decades.  (If you're worried about a page getting lost, we do have the technology to print on two sides of a page.)

I don't see how tiny fonts and no whitespace are more pleasing to potential employers than flipping over a piece of paper would be.

So is the one-page limit real, in the world of engineering?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Quote:

When is too much 'fudging' going to get you in trouble?

That’s like using small lies versus big lies, and in the end you will get caught and be embarrassed. Any fudging is too much. Just be honest, succinct and state facts regarding your accomplishments.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Remeber resume do not land you a job. Resume only land you an interview and the interview gets you the job. So design resume only to create enough interest by the reader to call you for a interview to get to know you further. Do not waste paper by detailing all the experience on a resume.

Most, me included, do not spend more than 15-30 seconds per resume to determine if the candidate is worth talking to.



RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Then there's my mother, who recently reverse-fudged her resume.  At some past position she'd made some kind of change that resulted in ridiculously high increase in productivity (in the 3-digit realm) but didn't think anyone would really believe that, so she cut the increase to a fraction of what it really was.  I forget why it was that she didn't feel she could defend the real number in an interview.

Those who say you must be able to defend everything on the resume in an interview are absolutely correct.  But technicalities still come into play.  If you can say without lying outright that you did XYZ, then say it, even if you don't feel that you are an expert in it.  To some, that's fudging.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Don't put anything down that won't pass questioning.  Ever.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

HgTX,

I agree with you that one page may be too limiting for people who worked at more than 5 firms.  I do not believe that there is a one page rule in engineering.  2 pages are acceptable to me but anything more than 3 pages I set it aside until I have the time to "read" it.

I also do not like very dense resume with small fonts.  Standard 10 or 12 point fonts are easier on my eyes.

rbulsara is right on about creating an interest.  Interview is what gets you hired.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Given that it is a selling document, why not put in a (good) photo of one of 'your' projects? Captions along the lines of "This is the first bridge I designed that didn't fall down" might be a high risk gambit.

The only guide to resumes I ever read said two pages, by the way, but work really hard on the covering letter.

Incidentally I got one really good job by turning up to interview with an A3 poster of a cutaway of one of my projects. I got the interview by addressing the advertisement's requirements EXACTLY in my covering letter - it was a spec driven organisation, so I'd done the right thing.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

(OP)

I disagree with a photo of any kind in a resume. However, I carry a portfolio of the more important 3D models I have created and/or designed. This portfolio also makes for great conversation for those who are interested to look thru it and want to ask questions. I'm also proud to have it with me for it's a glowing example of where I came from and what I desire to be smile

Edson-

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

My current resume is five pages, and includes color photographs of five things I've done:

* The engineroom of a superyacht, showing parts of the exhaust system I designed, assembled, and tested.
* An exhaust riser under test on the flow bench, with water spraying where it should.
* A photo of a printed color rendering of a 3D object done in AutoCAD 3D, underneath the actual object, with a machinists scale.
* A timing belt pulley with a sliding- block coupling squeezed inside, built to keep belt tension from interfering with a wrap spring clutch.
* A flight simular for which I engineered the structure.

Everyone is asking for Word doc files these days, so why not include (low res) photos.  The file is ~100k bytes.

The top half of the first page grabs the reader by the throat with a couple of actual quotes that don't quite approach "walks on water".  They're attributed to an anonymous title.  I haven't decided whether to give the person's name, too.

The text for the more recent jobs makes it clear, if not explicit, why I don't work there anymore.  I've had a lot of  jobs, and some of them didn't end well.  Attempting to candy- coat something like that makes you seem evasive; much better to tell the truth.  Excising the vitriol from text like that is very, very hard.

I've tried cutting it down to a page or two, but in my case, the 'good stuff' is spread out over decades, and several tens of jobs, so I couldn't just truncate it.


  It's getting a better response rate than any that have gone before it, including unsolicited praise from retained recruiters apologizing that they wish they had an opening for me.  

The photos greatly increased the response rate.

So did removing the word 'honest'.  I was disappointed by that.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Another perspective.  If you 'sell' yourself into a position you don't really fit, will you be happy there for the long term?  

A good resume should leave open your potential but not compell unnatural things to happen.

I personally prefer very short resumes that only list the benefits rendered, of previous work experience, and what the assignment was. I will flesh out the details in interview.

I've seen way too many resumes where in the person listed 300 projects that each would take 3 years.  Upon questioning, it was apparent they played a bit role in such projects.  

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

That short resume is the perfect thing to personally deliver to the decision maker, or the Chairman, or your hometown newspaper.

If you're forced to go through HR, or recruiters, or one of those horrid automated resume parsers, it won't be very effective.  At least, mine wasn't.






Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

"A good resume should leave open your potential but not compell unnatural things to happen."

"Potential" and "experience" are two different things, and all the resume is supposed to list is experience.  So if you put down stuff that you have touched on and anticipate being able to get good at, is that "leaving open potential", or is that fudging?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I think a two page resume is fine. I have been using a two page format for 20 years, and it has landed me plenty of interviews.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Short resumes worked for me for the first 20 years.

For the second 20 years, not so much.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I would think after 20 years, one would not need a resume longer than half a page!

If someone is not impressed with me spending 20 years in a certain field, I would not want to work for him/her.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

DO NOT FUDGE!  I am proud of my experience in my years as an engineer and everything on my resume is verifiable.

In general I see two types of resumes....the "I'm looking for a job" resume, and the "my company is looking for a project", resume.  The former is one that should contain essentially everything you've done in your career (succinctly, though) and the latter should be tailored with project specific experience.

Remember...a resume says more than the words accumulated on paper.  It should be neat, well organized, and logically presented. You don't have to follow one of the "resume" formats, but do keep the info in a logical order.  The order I use is:

Education and Qualifications/Licensure
Professional Memberships/Activities
Experience ( in a narrative form, not just date-to-date bullets)
Accolades
Personal (this is always optional)

I will dismiss a resume that contains poor sentence structure, poor grammar, typographical errors, or poor spelling in either the resume or the cover letter.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I've run across multipage resumes, and haven't yet seen anything to strongly recommend their usage.  In one case, it was from a person without a BS and his lengthy work history simply pointed out a LOT of job hopping, all with allegedly good reasons...

Keep it simple, keep it truthful.  I don't have quarrel with "experience with" or "familiar with" when it applies to specific programs.  I usually ask what that specific experience is and most people seem to respond with truthful answers.  

TTFN



RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I have read (from Fortune Magazine) that some Fortune 500 companies do not read cover letters - takes too long. Oh well.

In my own case, it depends on how big the stack of resume is on my desk. If I have a stack of 20 resumes, I pretty much read everything (basis of 3 page per resume, and the cover letter). If I have a stack of 200 resume (co-op/intern hiring), I skim really really fast (figure it out for yourself what you would look at). What do I skim for? Well, firstly, marks. Secondly, the names of my competitor (if they were good enough for my competitor, then they are probably good enough for me). Third, anything that stands out from what I typically see in a resume.


For someone with experience:
With regards to a resume, it is supposed to list what you have done. If you have done the same type of work at 20 companies over 15 years, it is still pretty much a one line item.

If you can't describe what you do in one page, in my mind, that means you don't really know what you do.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Ashereng is making a great point.  If I have a small stack, I'll read everything carefully, but if I have a large pile (20+) I'll skim as well.  I look at previous companies, and time employed.  If I see someone that is jumping jobs every 6-9 months, I won't consider them.

I know our resumes are screened by HR before they ever make it down to me.  HR does not read the cover letter, but reviews for skills and education, objective data that they can compare to listed job requirements.  What they do poorly is scan for the type of work a candidate has been involved with.  We may be looking for someone that is very hands-on vs someone that strictly crunches numbers.  HR can't tell the difference even when we tell them what to look for.  I always wonder who we have passed-up due to HR's screening attemps.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

"With regards to a resume, it is supposed to list what you have done. If you have done the same type of work at 20 companies over 15 years, it is still pretty much a one line item."

That's only true if you're doing a skills-based resume rather than a history-based resume.  There are still plenty of people out there, unfortunately, who think if someone's providing a skills-based resume then they must be trying to hide something about their job history.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

By definition, resume is a summary or an overview of one's qualifications.  Be as brief as possible but make each words count.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

(OP)

from MadMango:

"HR can't tell the difference even when we tell them what to look for.  I always wonder who we have passed-up due to HR's screening attempts..."

A possible answer to MadMango's statement...

"Ask your competitors!"

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

If you have to lie on your resume, you're not qualified to apply for the job.

Brian

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Oh, rubbish. My 25 year sentence for an axe murder doesn't make me unqualified for an engineering job, but I wouldn't put it on my resume.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Greg,

In my jurisdiction, and indictable offense automatically disqualifies you from holding a P. Eng. In otherwords, it does make you unqualified to hold an "engineering" position since you are no longer an engineer.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

What, even if the sentence was served? Seems harsh. I thought the idea was that by completing the sentence you had 'paid your debt to society', but I am no legal expert.

Just in case anyone is wondering that was a ridiculous example, to make a serious point. There are certain things that will prevent your resume getting past HR that should not, but will, disqualify you from an engineer's job.

And needless to say in your jurisdiction, in your part of the industry, I am not an "engineer" anyway. It's no skin off my nose, the bills get paid just the same.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

A resume is a ONE PAGE explination of what you have to offer my firm. Why you will fit in well at my firm is the topic of the cover letter. I do not blantently belive every adjetive that is written, but if it starts to sound like a realestate add, your losing me. Spelling and apperance, including paper quality, are important.If your resume is not worth all your effort, what will you put effort into? In reading the resume, I look at how long you have worked at each firm. If you have moved from division to division with in a firm be clear about it. I have seen many resumes where this is the case but with out reading carefully, it lookslike the person was workig for different firms every few years. I then look not so much what the person was resbonsible for, as this gets distorted and really does not matter. I look at what tasks the person has performed. If I am looking for a design engineer, I prefer someone who has experience designing, instead of only supervising designers. Tell me what skills you have, not what the people you supervised had.
Finally I look to see the word "work", especially in the sentence that describes what type of employment the applicant is seeking.Most say "I would like a postion that will allow my to challenge my full engineering potential" Thats not why I will hire you. I prefer" I would like to work as a structral engineer and have the oppertunity to learn to design complex structures." That will get you a interview with a positive mind set. If you show me in a personalized cover letter that you have a familiarity with my firm thats even better.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Landing the interview is essential in a resume, you want to present yourself in a verbage that the employer is looking for. People are like old whores, they want to hear they are pretty, so you want them to read what they want to hear. It is unfortunate, but that's what gets the interview.

A good reference of such language can be found in the adds in government positions identifyng duties, web sites of large firms can be good references.

Keep in mind, that your employer will be using your resume to get projects, so a well written resume with  "government" style language that uses eloquent verbage describing your work is a plus.

You need to interview the company while being interviewed, and NEVER go an employee-owned company (partial or whole). As the work goes down, guess who gets the ax? the non-owner that you are of course.

You must find out who you will be reporting to, if you are a structural engineer, make sure that your boss will not be an architect. There is nothing worse than working for someone who cannot evaluate your work.

Remember, you never lie, you just stretch the truth.


RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Lying (or fudging) a resume is grounds for immediate dismissal even after long terms of service.

You will be found out sooner or later and could be dismissed effective right this minute.

Remember that when submitting a resume.

However a resume is not much of a tool in the hiring decision. I don’t put a lot of weight on the document other than to screen out candidates in the first go around. I talk to them face to face and can quickly determine who has good experience and who doesn’t. All it takes is a few simple and direct questions.

Everyone remembers the essential facts about every project that they have worked on. Just ask what was the exact span of a bridge and if they hesitate or say about xx metres, they weren’t in actual charge of the project.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I wouldnt lie as well. You gonna lie about your qualifications for the job, its gonna come out when you start. After you have been working for a while, most employers expect you to hit the ground running so you better know how to do what you say you do.
I also bring in pictures or design portfolio, it makes your interview different and takes the edge off as they are usually pretty enthusiastic about the work you have done.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Quote (RDK):

Everyone remembers the essential facts about every project that they have worked on. Just ask what was the exact span of a bridge and if they hesitate or say about xx metres, they weren’t in actual charge of the project.
I guess I would fail your interview then. I rarely remember any exact details of any project - after I finish them. Too many projects, not enough brain cells I guess. Sometimes, I can barely recall the location of my site. I consider myself lucky if I can recall the project name and the approximate year it happened in.

Or, maybe that is just my industry?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

Ashreng, same here in the structural industry.  At least I leave enough trail in my computer to track down any info on projects or who worked on them so I don't have to go to the archives.

Engineers are trained to know where to go to get information to solve problems, not necessarily to memorize everything.  Or is it only in the U.S.?  Some are inherently better at memorizing but most are not.

On resumes, long list of projects do not impress me much.  Condensed list of projects describing the depth of involvement with each is more appealing.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I guess I'd fail Rick's test, too.  In the past six years, I've done work for/on a little over 450 yachts.  I remember some details of a few, especially the ones where things didn't go so well, but they're mostly just a big white blur.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I'd also fail.  Best I can do is tell you what project and what area of the project I worked on (unless it was really onerous, and got embedded into my memory).

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I'd be hosed.  I can remember the drawing number for the PW II (UK) AEII, I looked at it so often, but I'll be darned If I remember exactly it's mass, length etc.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I've seen lots of resumes but HR has never given me a cover letter.

However, I still write them just in case. I take the add if there is one and respond to every item on it with my experience. If nothing else it makes me understand what they need and I am prepared to answer a phone call.

If I noticed an error of spelling or grammar it would be really big. However, I know a guy that sent out a hundred resumes for pubic policy positions. He was a Public Policy major in school.

RE: What's important on a resume¦...

I remember that Ford's basic part numbers for axle shafts are 4007 and 4016, or were, forty years ago.  I can't remember which is left and which is right.

I don't remember the exact length difference between the l/r axle shafts in the '67 Econoline, with the offset pumpkin.  I do remember that had it been a millimeter more, that crafty old Manufacturing Engineer and I (young and stupid) would not have been able to make the first dozen production axle housings by hacking existing machine tools in the middle of the night and restoring them in the morning.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

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