Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
(OP)
Situation
Work with a colleague who is a tree's mortal enemy, prints out every detail imagineable. As part of company procedure he peer reviews/signs my work as I do his. He refuses to sign my work alot of the time as I don't "package" my work to the standard and care he does (nicely saying I don't cause printers fatigue failure quarterly).
He holds off his signature until his arm is twisted by my boss everytime (as my work is fine, we just "interpret" company procedures differently as they are very subjective).
Problem
Since it always looks like I am last minute on everything to everyone, but my boss, how do I "massage" my colleague into seeing things my way?
Work with a colleague who is a tree's mortal enemy, prints out every detail imagineable. As part of company procedure he peer reviews/signs my work as I do his. He refuses to sign my work alot of the time as I don't "package" my work to the standard and care he does (nicely saying I don't cause printers fatigue failure quarterly).
He holds off his signature until his arm is twisted by my boss everytime (as my work is fine, we just "interpret" company procedures differently as they are very subjective).
Problem
Since it always looks like I am last minute on everything to everyone, but my boss, how do I "massage" my colleague into seeing things my way?
Frank "Grimey" Grimes





RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Find a place in the middle where both of you are equally (dis)content. It is unfair of one side of a (peacetime) conflict to expect the other side to completely surrender.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Quality and improvement in a company are not only with the "Quality Department" or "Those guys up there".
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
See if you can get your hands on the following book:
"Product Development for the Lean Enterprise: Why Toyota's System Is Four Times More Productive and How You Can Implement It"
It's very easy read and will give you some insight to what is really important in the process product development.
Solid Edge V19 SP1 on WinXP SP2
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Your description makes me think you are like my colleague - he's an excellent engineer but puts the emphasis on getting a solution not documenting how he got there. I think I am like your colleague and I like to maintain a nice clear paper trail to well and truly cover my a$$. Sometimes, with a deadline looming, my colleague would ask me to check his work and I would sign it off, because I could "fill in the gaps" so to speak because I knew him well enough to know how his mind works. When time allowed, I would insist he provided all the information necessary so that any fool could understand where the answer came from (any fool doing our job that is!). Now when it comes to revisiting old projects, half of his work has to be done again because the next engineer can't figure out what he did and does it again for himself. And despite him being the best engineer we've got, very few people can borrow his designs to adapt it to their own projects because they can't tell how he went from step A to step E his project and so they don't know how to adapt steps B, C and D on their own.
Perhaps your colleague is looking to make life easier in the future at the expense of todays deadline. Maybe if you understand his reasons for being a pedant you'll be able to find a compromise somewhere down the middle.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
If your colleagure believes that you are providing inadequate documentation, then discuss what should be documented with your colleague and with your boss.
If your colleague is playing office politics, then do whatever is necessary to delay his projects. Check everything he does and object to confusing/unnecessary documentation. Discussing the problem with your boss is also not a bad idea.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Thanks, I'll check that book out.
kchayfie,
I'm sure if you ask my colleague that is what he would say (paper trail), however the problem being is when the product is out the door the only thing that doesn't see the trash bin is the drawing and the official calculation (if required).
An example of his nature; he believes if I quote ASME III ND-3512 in a calc; I should copy that page, highlight the section I'm referencing, and put it in the package. Rather than just the text reference next to the assumption/clarification made. Or if I am figuring pipe dead weight loadings I should copy the pipe schedule listing from Crane TP410 and throw it in the package. The best is, for him, if someone has sent him an e-mail with the smallest nugget of info he'll print out the chain (one was 12 pages once) and put it all in the package.
CarlPugh,
I don't think its politics with him, its just he is just obessive compulsive and needs things in a box for him to understand. His style is formulaic A-->B-->C and if you do C before B he gets all twisted. My style is come up with an idea and proof it by any and all means necessary.
I guess the answer to my dilemma is make him look so good he'll be promoted out of my way.
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Anyway the moral of the story is that your colleague wants to be your boss. ...but seriously, if he is sharing liability, to me it seems courteous to present him with copies of the references, so he doesn't have to swim through several techincal manuals in on his way to the source for your design. Highlighted lines on the copy of reference would be a bonus.
Still, as a professional, I think you could reasonably disagree with your colleague. My dad is a retired mechanical engineer, and he disagrees.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
If it distils down to, "What is the reality of the desired standard of work" maybe he can shed some light for you both.
If your co-worker is expending resources in "no value added" effort, it may be simply waste.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
If he complains ask where in the proceedure font size is given.
If he still complains next time give him size 18 and about 200 sheeto of paper.
Then you can go to weird fonts.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Just look at the situation from his point of view for a moment. Apparently he is a perfectionist and he does his work with a lot of care. He wants your work to be of the same standard, he does not like shortcuts - after all his signature will be on it.
So what's wrong with that?
What's the problem of printing a couple trees worth of paper if the result is a faultless design? (I have no idea what you design but it might explode in people's faces if done uncorrectly)
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
I can see where you colleague is coming from; saving time by including copies of the relevant sections of standards, showing you have used the correct standard, copying pump curves etc.make a descrete package that can be a reference.
I treat every calculation as though it is going to be questioned in court. If I have a dozen attachments on the back of my calcs that show where I have got the data and assumptions, there can be no question of what I have done. It may be wrong - but I have the evidence.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
There's nothing wrong with him being concerned about a design that his signature will be on, but me photocopying War & Peace doesn't make it anymore reliable. The references I make are sitting on his shelf just as they are mine. I always include required references (e.g. pump curves, anchor loading data, etc.) but when he's asking me to copy the page I got Bernoulli's Theorem from, thats asking abit much I think.
Just as a note, my boss leans on my side, but in my industry (nuclear) you can't argue with someone who claims to do something in the name of "nuclear safety".
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
In your situation, I would make it clear to your boss/project manager/project team when you have completed your work and have passed it to him for review. That way they will be able to see where the project delays lie. And when he blames it on not having a copy of the ASME standard, go to his shelf, take his copy down and open it to the right page for him. And if your in a bitchy mood a throw-away line about his ability to open books might just drive home your point!!
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Watch that he is not out to try and run you down or the like.
When I do reports I like to ensure that all bases are covered - this is the script nowadays Im afraid and simple brief works tend not to meet the average expecations out there. Negotiate with this guy and get some form of concrete gameplan set down. This is vital - Any expected level agreements in place ? Any methods for prepreation of technical documentations? If not then do this get it ratified. Its easier in the long run - if this guy is going overboard then you are right its a waste of effort but then again if you are not putting in the effort then you are not closing the job and completing the task.
Different views and all that can cause friction.
How is this guy towards you in other areas ? How is he with other employees? How does he fair with management / customer?
Always makesure that you have your work documented as in when it was submitted and such - ensure that you do what is required to the letter of the request.
Rugged
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Regards,
Jim Emanuel
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
We tend to get so into standards and procedures that we forget what activities really add value for the customer. I am not saying that standards and procedures are not important, what I am saying is that it should not be the “driving force” behind our daily activities, the needs of the customer should be.
Solid Edge V19 SP1 on WinXP SP2
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Other than him reviewing my work, my colleague and I get along well, I mean we're not going out for a brew afterhours but I can chit-chat with the man during work hours. I just can't talk to him about this, if you ask him he's never been wrong in his life.
toffeet,
The "customer" could care less other than the fact that he never allows me to get the package to the field ahead of a due date. It affects my efficiency as alot of the time I have another package completed while he's reviewing the last package.
I have no problem if he wishes to do his work that way, I'm not responsible for his throughput; however my main problem is that since no bar has been set by management people are blindly copying his style (complaining all the while mind you). I feel like Don Quixote or something sometimes, or I'm trying to fight the tide from coming in.
On an extra note;
Since the boss announced I'm his fill-in (2nd in command) I've noticed my work doesn't get the complaints as before. Interesting?
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Since the boss announced I'm his fill-in (2nd in command) I've noticed my work doesn't get the complaints as before. Interesting?
Yep very
Tells you all you need to know - this guy is threatened by you and sees fit to try and cause you trouble. Watch your back.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
If it's not a well-known, well-referencer or easily accessible, then definitely include a copy.
In either case, a copy of sample calculations should be included and that's normally sufficient.
To be frank, the suggestion of a "template" reference is excellent.
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
No sulfuric acid spilling around here....
However if he wanted my position I'd gladly hand it over, but I think I was chosen as his "style" rubs people the wrong way and I think I was just the next best thing. (He's been in this group longer)
I think this is just an issue I will deal with constantly and I just need to use my charm and guile each time to skate through.......never thought I needed those skills in engineering....
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
Why not kill a few trees do it his way, get on with the job and worry about something important?
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Overcoming the Obstacle of Subjective Procedures
1) Not my senior....peer review....standard practice here.
2) This is something important. It directly affects my productivity...hence my review....hence my pay. This also affects everyone else he might review.
3) It makes me question his value to the group. Our division is based on immediate service upon plant upset. I have operators/mtce complain that this individual cannot produce fast enough, even simple tasks, to get the plant right again. So they come directly to me now that they know who can produce...thus doubling my workload. This affects the bottom line.
If this were just a personality conflict I'd let it go, but I hate "engineers" who think their way is the "right" way. That smugness is what makes me not wear my iron ring.
Frank "Grimey" Grimes
You can only trust statistics 90% of the time.