×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Never accept first offer?
2

Never accept first offer?

Never accept first offer?

(OP)
I've often heard not to accept the first salary offer, but obviously there are exceptions for everything.  Recently I received an offer from a major aerospace company and I consider it acceptable.  Salary.com says it's within the range I should be getting for the area.  

However, I can't help but think I could be getting a couple thousand more.  Every company expects the candidate to come back with a higher number, right?  So the question is should I negotiate?

RE: Never accept first offer?

2
In today's job market, unless I had something they really wanted and couldn't get elsewhere, I wouldn't.  

You'd know if you were in such a strong position because they'd extend the offer verbally at the end of your interview, before you left the premises.  At that time, you could do some face- to- face horse trading.  An offer that comes some time after an interview is probably is not very flexible.

A major company gives managers only limited range for negotiation, so you couldn't get a big bump unless:
- you could prove you're qualified for some higher rate
- such a slot exists locally
- it doesn't break the budget
- it wouldn't piss off your new peers

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Never accept first offer?

Hmmm.
I'm generally the one to say that the job interview session is probably your only real chance at salary negotiations and is where you set the salary scale for yourself for the next several years and so yes, you could negotiate ... maybe.

On the other hand, when you've been in the same job for some time you will find you are slipping behind the market so the point is that these negotiations are really about catch-up. It seems to me that from what you've researched that this is a fair offer and you've caught up.You might also see it as a sign that the HR department here knows where it is in the market and what is fair and reasonable. In which case you won't win any friends by trying to shift the envelope.

What you may have to do is assure yourself that once you are employed that they continue to treat you fairly.

So what is a couple of thou in percentage terms? probably not more than point scoring and pursuing it may actually be counter productive.

Negotiating might be taking one gamble too many. I've known companies withdraw all offers if a good offer is seriously challenged.

On balance, with a fair offer that shows you a good gain over your current employment situation, I'd suggest you don't negotiate but say "Thanks, when do I start?"

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Never accept first offer?

(OP)
Thank you much.  It's actually a bit of a pay cut but I'm going from one of the most expensive parts of the country to a more reasonable place so I'm OK with that.  

Other than money, the only other thing I'd like to ask for is time off in 2008 for a big vacation I would like to take.  I'd take it without pay if I don't have vacation time accrued by then...that doesn't bother me.  

RE: Never accept first offer?

I don't think it is a good idea to ask for the vacation ahead, without starting to work here.

If you are a new graduate, don't ask for more, unless you are sure you are un-pay. Otherwise,I heard some companies withdraw offers if the good offer is challenged.

RE: Never accept first offer?

(OP)
No, not a new grad.  Been out of school for 6 years now, but this will only be my second real job.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Just bear in mind that large aerospace companies tend to collude on pay increases.  They've been running about 4.5% for many years now.

TTFN



RE: Never accept first offer?

Another way to negotiate is instead of asking the increase upfront you get a deal like after 6 months your salary is revised X% (stated in your contract). Like that you have already something to show to them and they become more confortable with it.
And yes, don't ask holidays in advance. From today until 2008 many things can happen and you might not be able to fulfill your plan, so why make them already angry. First, deliver, then demand.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Okay, instead of asking for an extra dollar per hour, your could ask them to give you an extra week of PTO per year, you know... If you're supposed to be leaving on good terms with your previous employer, you're also abandoning your earned equity of benefits, as well.

You might keep an open mind.  When a senior manager joined our company, he started with 15 days of vacation credit, while many, many other employees, including me, started at zero hours.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Everything is negotiable.  A friend of mine negotiated three weeks of comp time in advance of his three week trip to his wife's home in Africa.  He's a hard worker.  He worked extra hours for a few weeks so that he could keep his plans.  

If your expertise is in demand and you're a hard worker, a potential employer should be thankful you're considering his offer to join up.  You do not have to put yourself in a corner.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Quote:

I've often heard not to accept the first salary offer, but obviously there are exceptions for everything.

Myth.

Quote:

However, I can't help but think I could be getting a couple thousand more.

This means you did not do a good job of researching your salary requirements for the job.

Quote:

Every company expects the candidate to come back with a higher number, right?

Wrong.

Quote:

So the question is should I negotiate?
If you feel, based on your salary requirements, that the offer is too low, yes. But you better have done your homework.

RE: Never accept first offer?

[quote] ... (maybe) getting a couple thousand more. [quote]

So, that would net out to say $140 per month. If you like the job and you like the company and you like the location, would you really choose to risk it for $140 per month?

No, there is no expectation that you should reject the first offer, especially in the present market.

You do risk having them yank the offer altogether. I learned this one the hard way.

About three years ago I'd applied for a job I really wanted. I received an offer that was about 10% less than I was looking for. For many reasons, I thought that the higher salary was justified. Presuming that "there's no harm in asking," I wrote out a letter telling them how excited I was about the position but asking them to consider (mind you, only consider) matching the salary I'd had just before my plant closed. I provided a list of why I thought that justified. A few days later, after no reply, I began to worry. A couple days after that, HR called and said that they'd decided to rescind the offer. I ended up stuck in a crappy job for another year before I found something better.

If you like the job, take it. If you're somewhat ambivalent, consider negotiating.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Never accept first offer?

(OP)
Thank you all. I just accepted the offer.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Congratulations and good luck in your new job!

RE: Never accept first offer?

Respectfully, if "never accept the first offer" is the basis for starting a negotiation, then there simply is no basis for negotiation.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Well too late now I guess, but the relocation and relative cost-of-living could have been your excuse.

"Thank you for your offer.  Subsequent to its receipt I have done some research on the comparitive cost of living between my current residence and New Town.  It appears that after adjustment, your offer is not comparable to my current salary."

RE: Never accept first offer?

Yes, too late now, but if you have a job, and you are relatively happy with your current situation, as far as I am concerned you are in the drivers seat. Ask for what you want, and if they don't want you bad enough go find someone who does.

My last move earned me a big raise and a really nice sign on bonus. I would have received neither if I had not negotiated.

Engineers, are so negative about the job situation. A guy looking for a sales or a marketing job wouldn't dream of not negotiating.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Never accept first offer?

Congrats!

On your next job offer, if you have a "compensation package" in mind, and the first offer meets all of your criteria, I would suggest that you take it.

In my mind, it shows:
1) you know what the going rate is
2) you know what you want
3) you are not greedy
4) you appreciate your potential employer dealing in good faith

If I am the employer making the offer, I would appreciate an employee who recognises a good offer when they see one.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Never accept first offer?

I've almost always negotiated. Almost always they have come up at least a little. Two times they didn't budge, but I took the job anyway. On time it was very frustrating because the owner offered me the job at a certain salary (which was the exact number I taold him I was already making), but he mentioned that he was "very flexible". Maybe there was some miscommunication because he wasn't. That price was all he would do.

Some people think that employers will not respect you if you don't negotiate.

In my current job, which was something I really wanted, prior to our second and final interview, the boss told me that we had to make sure we were financially compatible. I just came out and told her what I currently made and that I would prefer not to drop down any. She stated that the budget only allowed for a max of $10,000 less than  what I currently made, but that she would try to get approval for the same as what I made.

She got it and I am happy about that.

It may all depend on your scenario. I knew going in that they might have trouble even reaching my current salry, so of course there was no room to negotiate when they did meet it.

But, in other scenarios, I often negotiated. Most often, they came up some. When they didn't, it wasn't a deal breaker and there were no hard feelings.

Ed

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Never accept first offer?

When I accepted my current job, I turned down the first offer. They raised closer to what I wanted and I accepted it. (I knew the salary range and they couldn't go higher)
Depending on the position and how bad they want you, I would turn down the first offer and negotiate.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Never accept first offer?

You can always give it a try if you

(a) can invent a reason why you think the offer should be improved, without making the company lose face

(b) have a scenario in mind where you can revert to the original offer if the other side is not willing to improve, without losing face yourself

a and b are not necessarily compatible, so think it through before you act.

(I asked for a modest improvement of the original offer when I applied for my current job and got it)

RE: Never accept first offer?

I once asked for more money and walked away with an extra week of vacation per year and credit for 10 days vacation when I started.

That was at a small company where decisions were made by one dude.

Another time I asked for more vacation and ended up with a higher salary so that I could take unpaid time off and not lose any money. That was at a megacorporation where vacation was strictly allocated according to the published schedule.

My experiences and what I've read here demonstrate one thing: There are no hard and fast rules. Certainly changing jobs provides the primary means for step increases in compensation but negotiating presents some risks.

Each situation is unique and should be approached as such.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Never accept first offer?

I am surprised about the replies to the question of vacation. Many of the engineers I work with negotiatied to come in with additional vacation.  It has become so common that it is almost standard for an experienced engineer to come in with 3 weeks or more immediately.  Other oil industry companies have a standard practice that gives you vacation based on industry experience, not company experience.  I would never consider taking another job unless I started out with 4 weeks as of day 1.  But I value my vacation time and have worked for many years to get up to this level.

RE: Never accept first offer?

The company I work for will do 4 weeks of vacation,

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Never accept first offer?

I don't know your situation.  

If you need the work, and don't have another hot prospect, perhaps you should take it as is. If you are a new grad, you are probably close to what they will pay.

If you are working somewhere and its stable, maybe you should ask for more.  I was in this situation, asked for more, and got close to what I asked for, plus 4 weeks vacation time from day one.  That was enough to sway me.
Its been a good move so far, have gotten into some field work and some new things that I would not have done at my previous job.  

If relocation is an issue, you may want to ask for something toward relocation.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Same thing happened to me. I took the job and I do not regret it one bit. I am reminded of that everytime i talke to one of my fellow graduates who are still looking for that perfect job.

DP

RE: Never accept first offer?

My experience is that as soon as you get an offer, others will follow. Have the fortitude to hold off a decision. You  may make a mistake and opt for a company that is no good for you. It happened to me.

In another connection, I received an offer out of town, held off, and received an offer for the same money locally. Of course, I avoided the move and accepted the local offer.

RE: Never accept first offer?

ok, I got a question now:

I have been speaking with a company, interviewed twice, went in and was introduced to a project manager on the project (on a third occasion) I would be working on if I accept- and went over the general scope of the project.  An offer was made (via phone between second interview and project visit) but no money was quoted, we kind of danced around it.  We discusssed time / schedule expectations and agreed. He said he'd draft an offer, but I don't expect it to show up until after Christmas.

I am very happy with my current position but have been looking around for something else due to (lack of good) pay and benefits etc.  I am not at the gate waiting for the ok to rush out to another company etc. and this new company is aware of that.

Should I contact the HR guy to discuss the benefits prior to receiving a written offer?  

RE: Never accept first offer?

If you expect something unusual, e.g. starting with extra vacation, yes, call the HR guy.

A point of order:  You don't, technically, have an offer until salary and benefits are agreed upon, and confirmed in writing.  Sometimes even then, offers evaporate, so don't quit your current job just yet.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Never accept first offer?

I usually negotiate for more. I have been given more and also been told they could go no higher. I typically never let that be the sole deciding factor. I never felt bad for asking for more. I have heard some say that not asking for more could be thought of as a negative. I'm sure some feel that asking for more could be a negative as well. Its hard to say what the offering employer will think.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Never accept first offer?

In the US never even consider an offer without fully understanding the benefits package. Companies with poor benefits will often come in with a higher salary, so you have to evaluate the entire package.

esloan, I would wait until you receive the offer to discuss benefits with the HR guy. If you really are ok where you are, start thinking about what you would consider a great deal and write it down, so when you do have the offer you will have something to compare it against. What would be a great salary? Vacation? Medical? Retirement?  If the offer doesn't meet your expectations, develop a counter offer. But you will have to understand the benefits to make this evaluation.

Oh, and don't use "got" as in "I got a question."

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Never accept first offer?

I "gotta" update...  sorry couldn't help but be a little sarcastic...

I did get the offer via Fed Ex on Friday.  the number was a good one, although after looking at the benefits package, it doesn't really look like much of an increase in salary.  The medical benefits are the same although the premiums are more than double where I am right now.

Another difference is the base pay.  The number quoted to me is an annual salary.  Where I am now, I have a salary but it's based on an hourly rate.  The company info in the offer package explains that the salary is based on 44 hours per week and overtime is not guaranteed, it depends on the manager / group leader's discretion.  Now... I work a lot of OT but it fluctuates due to the projects.  With my hourly rate, I make only a couple grand less than the "offer" in the course of a year.  Comparing the two, the offer really doesn't look all that good. :(

Tomorrow I am going to get ahold of two people:
the first is a former co-worker (who happens to be one of my references) to hopefully find out from him how my company has dealt with possibly making counter offers, what type of raise a PE has brought etc. I don't follow office gossip but in this instance I hope to gain a little info on the company history to prepare myself for discussing this with them.
The second person to contact will be the project manager at the prospective company.  Maybe he can explain how "things" work with respect to hours etc.

just as an aside, I work in construction as a consulting engineer meaning all of my hours are billed to my client.  This may or may not compare to how you or your associates work, but typically if a client is being billed for my time then company is making money.

RE: Never accept first offer?

Good luck with that.....I think I'll stop trying to be helpful now....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Never accept first offer?

I had a lot to think about with that offer.  At first, all I really wanted was my current company to counter.  After thinking about "how" to approach my management, I suppose I came to a realization that if I went to them with an offer in hand from another company... well, I don't know how they would take it.  Even if they matched the offer, then what?  I stay here and everything will either be the same or worse given that they may have an attitude about me.  Am I a "traitor"?

I do love my job now, it's just the little things that started bugging me that I can't seem to let go.  Like requiring my personal vehicle for construction sites.  That REALLY is one big thing that I just can't seem to "get over".  Then, increasing medical co-pays and premiums right after a weak annual performance raise (but I had received a stellar review).

I know that health insurance is a "perk" and not a requirement, but I look at those as part of my salary.  If they aren't contributing to it, I am paying it out of pocket.  

I suppose I had to take a step back and decide if I would be happy accepting a counter-offer.  Everything else would be the same. So.. I worked at negotiating my offer with the new company.  After some clarification and back-and-forth questions and discussions, I accepted.

RE: Never accept first offer?

you're not a traitor.  you're looking out for yourself.  best believe if you died today, they'd be working tommorow.  

RE: Never accept first offer?

Health insurance isn't what I'd consider a perk but I lived in the UK till a few years ago where it isn't an issue.  

For me you have to take into account the whole package to see what it's worth.  

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources