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Workplace Scenario
3

Workplace Scenario

Workplace Scenario

(OP)

 My colleague confided me for his undertakings, i dont want him to offer with empty handed comfort and opinion. That's why i would like to brought this out in here for your further views.
 He's about to be a shift supervisor on O&M department. But he wonders how  would he react to his subordinates if he discover the fact that they are sleeping at work? He's a little bit hesistant to his reaction when he found it whether to be rude,  else he thinks, subordinates would take advantage his kindness, if he does.

 Anyone, had experience such sleeping - a workplace scenario?

RE: Workplace Scenario

I worked with a guy that took naps everyday at his desk, sitting up with mouse in hand. He was warned several times a month, it was reflected at each annual review and pay raise.
Our manager didn't want to go any further with it because the employee was near retirement age, and wanted him to make to retirement instead of being fired or laid-off.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

Sounds like your buddy doesn't have the stones to be a Shift Supervisor.

Supervisors are supposed to be fair, not kind. Sleeping on the job and getting paid for it is not acceptable (unless you're a fireman). To allow this violates the trust the company and managers have placed in the Supervisor.

Fired on the spot would not be rude but would be fair and appropriate as these slackers as they need a wake up call.

I was on one job site years ago and they had a problem with some of the laborers taking a siesta up on platforming or scaffolding high out of view. One project manager when finding a sleeper would simply pick up the hard hat, which had the name and badge number, off the deck and turn it in to the Construction Superintendent and they would be terminated.

NozzleTwister
Houston, Texas

RE: Workplace Scenario

We had a cronic napper.  After his 3rd warning, he was sent home for 3 days without pay.  After his 5th, he was sent home for a week without pay.  After his 6th, he was sent home permanently.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Workplace Scenario

2
Taking a pillow and blankets into work to get some sleep I'd class as fraud. People taking a nap at work can, however, be for various reasons such as
1) they're in a meeting
2) the office is too hot
3) the work is boring (see 1)
4) they're listening to the CEO's annual speech
5) it's after lunch and either 1) to 4) is occuring
6) not enough sleep
7) they have an illness
8) they're drunk

1 to 5 are perfectly acceptable reasons and can be dealt with by good management, 6 and 7 are probably worth a discussion. 8 is classed as gross misconduct.

corus

RE: Workplace Scenario

Similar...
I heard a story here at my job.
Several years ago an employee was caught sleeping under his desk over-night. Was doing it for a couple years without being caught. Turns out he was homeless. All his money went to child support and alomony. He was fired the day after he was caught.
Sad

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

I would tend to be a bit understanding and confront them individually to lay down the ground rules.  Only because I went through a period of sleeplessness due to caring for a family member that was chronically ill.  It showed in my performance at work but I was able to make it through those tough times without losing my job.  If you just sack them immediatly do you sack everyone that has a human defect of some kind....that's totally irrational


Some interesting facts about sleep disorders.

http://med.stanford.edu/school/Psychiatry/narcolepsy/

Narcolepsy is a serious medical disorder and a key to understanding other sleep disorders. Narcolepsy is a disabling illness affecting more than 1 in 2,000 Americans. Most individuals with the disorder are not diagnosed and are thus not treated. The disease is principally characterized by a permanent and overwhelming feeling of sleepiness and fatigue. Other symptoms involve abnormalities of dreaming sleep, such as dream-like hallucinations and finding oneself physically weak or paralyzed for a few seconds.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: Workplace Scenario

There's a big difference between somebody who just sort of drifts off into la-la land while at his desk/work station and the guy who leans back in his chair, props his feet up comfortably, and uses a rolled up coat as a pillow.  The first guy maight have gone to sleep by accident.  

For the first sort, a good talking-to is indicated.  

The second guy gets a walk to the gate...

old field guy

RE: Workplace Scenario

There are some companies (mostly non-U.S.) where napping at work is a custom.  There are even some companies in the U.S. (less than 1% when I wrote my paper a few years ago) that are picking up on this and considering a nap time during the day one perk of a job.  There is research to show that a short nap/rest during the day makes your other work time more productive, particularly in the afternoon.

Keep in mind, I am saying this from the perspective of an exempt (non-hourly) employee.  I would not show them the door for a first offense but talk with them, find out if there is a legitimate reason (maybe there is a medical problem or something else that might make this a one-time offense).  Document the discussion.  If it happens again, consider a more serious consequence.  Probably by the third time, you should consider unpaid leave or termination, depending on the circumstances.  You should consider as well, how is the job performance and is the guy otherwise getting all of his work done, does he put in extra hours when required, etc.  If a non-hourly guy performs well, gets work done and willingly works extra hours when required, do you really care if he closes his eyes for 20 minutes once in a while (maybe on break)?  I know that I would rather have this working for me than one who works exactly 8 hrs (or less) and doesn't get his work done on time.

RE: Workplace Scenario

I would have a talk with the sleepy employees and give them ample warning first, not just fire them outright.  Your colleague sounds like he/she would be distressed by taking strong initial action.  You don’t have to have narcolepsy to get sleepy during the day.  Over-consuming carbohydrates, and a poor exercise routine will do it.  A simple diet change might work , especially with those who have a genetic condition that causes a high insulin response.  If there is a physiological cause for the sleepiness, you cannot just will yourself to stay alert.

I would suggest telling them if they do not make changes, they may lose their jobs.  See if these employees will try it for awhile.  At the very least, a better diet and more exercise will improve their health and ultimately their value as an employee. If there are sociological causes, a warning about the loss of their income may alter their behavior.  This way your colleague can be more at ease knowing an attempt was made to help before taking more drastic action.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Workplace Scenario

I used to take a nap slumped over my desk at lunch sometimes.  If anyone had complained I just would have gone out to the parking lot and done it there in my car.  

I've also drifted off a few times when reviewing documents, and I've been in a meeting with a customer where one of their guys kept falling asleep.

It may sound like the cowards route but I'd refer it to HR/Personnel or at least get their input.  Before conducting any disciplinary action I would familiarize my self with company policies and consult HR, otherwise you're just leaving yourself and possibly your company open.

One question, of all the things to be concerned about when taking over a new supervisory position how did employees napping get to the top of the list?  Perhaps a slightly more detailed explanation will generate more targeted responses.

As for the guy sleeping under his desk, sounds a bit harsh, assuming he was even just a halfway decent employee I’d have tried to work something out.  However, I’m sure we’ve all heard of people fired for less.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Sleeping on the job is not acceptable.

However, there may be reasons for it.  None of them cause it to be acceptable.

A good manager needs to confront the employee, ask if there is something that is leading to the unacceptable behavior, and offer to help remedy the problem if there is one.

Then document that he did that.

If the behavior does not self-correct, or if the offer of help is not accepted, then the employee may be fired.

RE: Workplace Scenario

This is quite an interesting topic.  Employees who are awake all the time are not necessarily "working".

I would give a warning to underachieving chronic napper but ignore the ones who doze off every now and then with good performance.

RE: Workplace Scenario

In my opinion, 20 minute nap on the job is no worse than 20 minutes surfing on the web for personal use; however, it is much easier to make excuses/rationalizations for surfing on the web.  By the way, is it better to spend 20 minutes reading/responding to eng-tips.com’s threads for entertainment or taking a siesta if you don't feel like working?  

RE: Workplace Scenario

Quote:

"When you are the boss, you don't get to have friends."
--Frank Zappa

RE: Workplace Scenario

The same guy I mentioned above ... once in a meeting with everyone there, he fell asleep and his head went back into the wall and hit the power switch for the overhead projector ... while the engineering director was making a presentation. I thought it was funny, but embarrassing for him.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

When I was a sponsored student there was afairly senior engineer who'd always fall asleep at his desk.  I never knew whether I should wake him or not ... so I never did.  I just used to creep past him quietly.

When he left the department they had a whip-round and bought him an eraser for his pencil - so that he'd not poke his eye out when he fell asleep.

RE: Workplace Scenario

I've slept on the visitor's sofa in our reception area after a long day followed by a long night. I wasn't about to drive 55 miles home at 0400hrs after being on the go for over 20 hours, so I made a little nest (not my phrase, but kinda fitting) out of coats and overalls and bedded down for the three hours before the workers started to drift in. There were one or two surprised faces - initially when they realised I was asleep, then more surprised when they tried to wake me and were told to "go away!" in slightly more prosaic terms. I am still 100% convinced that it was the best that could be done in a bad situation - these days I live a lot closer to work and would have got a taxi.

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: Workplace Scenario

This was back in the days of hand drafting and uncarpeted floors:  We had a drafter who would fall asleep and snore while drafting.  Judicious dropping of long metal straight edge on the floor by his table did the trick.

RE: Workplace Scenario

To my mind, it would make a big difference whether this was some guy working 40 hours on hourly pay or working unpaid overtime on salary.  Sleeping at work isn't good, but if a company expects that employees should work at hours they should be home, then you have to expect this sort of thing to happen to some extent.  Same with making personal calls, etc.- if you don't give 'em time to do it off the job, it's got to be done while at work.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Back in highschool chemistry class, my teachear had a jug of ammonia set aside for this exact reason. When he spotted someone dozing off, he'd walk over, uncap the jug, and set it in their general area. After a few seconds, they'd usually wake with a jump after a few breaths of fumes.

It probably wouldn't be a great policy for a work environment, but it was enough to amuse a room of 16 year old kids.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Today's schools, the teacher would be fired and probably jailed for giving a student a controlled substance! Then sued by the student's parents!

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

my high school math teacher, who was actually pretty at lecturing, would often try to make a swish with a piece of chalk when someone would fall asleep and leave their mouth wide open.  The closest he ever got was hitting the sleeper's nose with the chalk.

TTFN



RE: Workplace Scenario

As an engineer, I once walked through the plant at 0400 and found the lead technician crashed out on a crate, shoes off and with a pillow and blanket. I walked through again a few minutes later and he stirred and noticed me walk by. We made eye contact and I kept going. I told nobody because it wasn't really my role and in truth, there wasn't much for him to do at that point and sleeping wasn't so bad.

A few months later, we were running 24x7 hot and heavy and I was appointed interim production supervisor. That same tech proved very reliable for me and went out of his way to help me. I figured it was because I didn't burn him when I could have.

Tell your friend to talk to the guy off the record at first and then escalate enforcement as needed.

If the guy comes in with a diagnosed case of narcolepsy, though, they're screwed.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Workplace Scenario

"Today's schools, the teacher would be fired and probably jailed for giving a student a controlled substance! Then sued by the student's parents!"

Perhaps. Though I'd like to think schools haven't changed that much in the last 8 years (since I'm only 24). Although, said teacher would have probably gotten reprimanded for it if someone took it the administration.

RE: Workplace Scenario

When I was at school, teachers were often deadly accurate with bits of chalk and, in extremis, with the board rubber.
Outlandish behaviour could be certain to result in judicious use of the cane, or in the case of the chemistry teacher, a wooden retort stand. Weapon of choice for the PE teacher was a plymsol (tennis shoe).
Then again, in my day there wer no security scanners or body seraches and you didn't have to pack your lunch in a see through bag. The incidence of serious bodily harm to anyone by anyone was nil.

Sadly, not so long ago when the unions were very strong, it was expected that every worker was entitled to so much overtime each week whther there was wrok available or not and when there was work available the work rate was strictly controlled. In those days it was not uncommon for the entire night shift to be asleep and no one expected any different.
Some workers resented this but thyere was little they could do except what was expected of them by their colleagues and the unions.

I think the occassional lapses of employees should be ovelooked unless there is a clear work and safety issue. Repetitive behaviour is something else.

Much more serious is when employees choose to die at work.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Workplace Scenario

Dying at work should definitely be grounds for immediate dismissal.

I once had the case that I was trying to get hold of someone at another company and couldn’t get a response.  I got a message the next day that they had fallen ill at work been taken to hospital and died!  Didn’t seem so funny at the time.

So is sleeping on the job endemic at your place billybry?

RE: Workplace Scenario

After you have found out that there are no physical, emotional, or outside forces causing the peron to sleep on the job and that it isn't because he's working more hours than allowed, the employee must be confronted.

We use the Have a BEER method.
Behavior - talk only about sleeping in just 1 sentance.
Effects of that behavior or why its bad to sleep on the job
Expectations what is the expectation, even rules
Results what will happen if they continue to sleep and what will happen if they stop it.

The first sesion is on their turf and time table, the second warning is on your turf and time and it should be written too.

RE: Workplace Scenario

In 9th grade I had math teacher that upon your dosing would grab you by your necktie and raise you bodily out of your desk at which time you were aroused enough to find yourself flung out the door.  Normally your feet barely touched the floor between desk and door and a really nice sticker bush awaited your landing.  It was pretty funny really.

 

RE: Workplace Scenario

I think this discussion needs more context. I will admit I have taken a nap while at work.  The context of the nap is important though.  We have a plant that is miles from the nearest accommodations it takes about 45 Min's to get to the hotel.  while working on the back shift (I had already worked on the front)  I took a nap.  I knew that I wouldn't be needed for a few hours and if I was because of an unforeseen circumstances I gave orders to be awakened immediately.  I don't see anything wrong with this and know my supervisor doesn't either.  However if sleeping on the job is an everyday occurrence someone needs to address the problem.  

RE: Workplace Scenario

The difference is we are taking about work ethic, professionals get paid to work whatever it takes to get the job done.  Some people put in time and get paid and they don't see that getting paid to sleep isn't right.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Sleeping on the job problem will be resolved if you eliminate all the cubicle partitions and the boss has a direct view of the staff from his office (in the context of A/E design firm).

I suppose many bosses won't like this setup because they sometimes want to nap too.

RE: Workplace Scenario

I dozed off once in an engineering lecture (my fault not the professor, it was a good class I was working nights while going to school). The professor woke me up by demonstrating elastic potential being transformed into kinetic energy.... by firing a rubber band at my head.

I never once thought to sue...

RE: Workplace Scenario

(OP)
Well, whyun. That's good point. I tried that action as yours, we'd replace the concrete partition with a clear transparent glass across our workshop and disable all door knob (not to lock) to discourage sleeping.. it really works.
 Our manager would pass along the hallway without getting entered to the workshop to catch up such dilema, and remarkably he appreciates the outcome.

RE: Workplace Scenario

I guess this depends on your engineering job -

Sleeping at work I cant tolerate - sorry. There may be good reason for it but there is no excuse for it. In saying that Id not sack the individual but Id talk to them and ensure that I understood the reason. Id also let them know that it wasnt toleratable. Next time there would be something done about it and the appropriate actions carried out.

can you imagine the driver of an 18 wheeler sleeping on the job, or a nurse on intensive care monitoring duties ?
No neither could I, and I think that to do something like that or allow this to happen just serves to cheapen engineering as a profession.

Rugged

RE: Workplace Scenario

(OP)
ruggedscot, you're right.

 It does depend on the job you are in. But let's consider on engineering side.

RE: Workplace Scenario

whyun,
I worked at a place like that once. Very stressful having the boss watch every breath I take. At my review he said "You spent 3 minutes in the bathroom!". I said "You spent 15 minutes BSing with the secretary!" Then I quit.
It was an engineering job.
When I see someone sleeping on the job, it depends if it annoys me or not. If it's a young employee, parties a lot, comes in late and leaves early, no excuse. If he/she is older, there could be various reasons why the sleeping. Then I leave it alone.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

During my early engineering career I was working full time and going to grad school at night. On one occasion I was doing some research in the company library, and I must have fallen asleep. The library mgr woke me up with a dropped book on my table. It was embarrassing, but I didn't hear about it later.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Hey Man,
Well he is getting paid to be a manager. They feel they can trust him. One thing is very important, if his subordinates are sleeping on the job, then the job is not at its full potential. He should give them a warning something like this,

Hey guys I know sometimes this job gets boring but I can not allow you all to sleep on the job.  If this happens again I will be forced to write you up. If you feel like your falling to sleep please let me know maybe I can give you a 10 min brake but I can not have you all sleeping on the job. Please consider this your first warning. This a nice but nasty way of getting your point across.

Ps
Job first feelings later

RE: Workplace Scenario

Let's see. Someone has toothache (or rheumatism) all night and doesn't get much sleep. You'd write them up for dozing off after lunch while working in a stuffy office on a PC? Tough crowd...

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Workplace Scenario

If I were hurting and didn't sleep much all night, I would stay home from work.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: Workplace Scenario

Nobody has mentioned babies. I can tell you, after a rough night with a teething baby, it's hard to stay awake come 2pm. There's been many nights that I've gotten only 2 hours sleep. I ussually make it to work, and am OK in the morning, but by afternoon, I need to make sure I'm doing R&D or other work on the shop floor, because if I stay at my desk, my head will flop onto the keyboard repeatedly.
Fortunately, I seldom do more than nod off before getting a Coke, and taking a walk thru the shop. But sometimes I have to look at the clock, or look around not knowing how long my eyes were shut. LOL
I don't think my boss (a father also) would say much besides maybe "better get some coffee!"

David

RE: Workplace Scenario

Ummm, David, it is your Wife's responsibility to take care of the baby. Jeebus man! You work, she tends house.

RE: Workplace Scenario

Wow, and I thought all cavemen were dead and buried under miles of ice.

WJSD just set evolution back a few thousand years...

Wow, I sure wish I could meet a man like you that would let me stay home and be a housewife and raise babies and cook your dinner and rub your feet at night.....

or not...  winky smile

RE: Workplace Scenario

We had a CAD Drafter that would nap at lunch.  It was widely known and seemingly accepted as his immediate supervisor knew all about it.  It was the running joke during his tenure.   His last name was Brick and his head was built like one. As an aside, one of the elder CAD drafter took a cardboard roll,  marked it his 'Brick Bat', and used it to get Mr Brick's attention when not being as astute as he should have been. He was terminated within 90 days for reasons other than his napping habits. I'll admit that his napping colored my opinion of him, but he later backed up that opinion with fact!  

On a side note, my 7th grade science teacher had a remarkably dramatic way to awaken the back row.  The smooth black counters of the science room were perfect for use with a yardstick (meterstick for your UK'er's?). Mr. Steven's would continue to lecture as he casually strode to the back of the room next to the offender, slowly raise the yardstick, and bring it down with such expert precision that it made the sharpest, loudest, snap that mankind ever created.  During one incident, the offender's eye's shot open, they tried to stand up in their one piece desk, lost their balance and fell ass over tea kettle, backwards, onto the floor. Science class was always exciting to me no matter what was being lectured on! smile

--
Erik
MO P.E.

RE: Workplace Scenario

If it is employees (not employee), I'd stay away from it, try to be a hero and these guys could slash your breaks, just a slow leak so that you go into the ravine at the corner. When it is chronic with several people sleeping on the job, it is up to higher up to shake things up, with security personnel, not you.

RE: Workplace Scenario

If the person chooses to take a nap during their break, that's their choice.  Breaks and lunches are personal time to be used as the employee chooses - I believe that is law.  Who cares if they are frantically driving across town to run errands or sleeping, either way they aren't working and it is their time.

I don't think I'd be honest if I said I've NEVER fallen asleep.  There have been some pretty boring conferences where I've joined the rest of the back of the room in dozing off.  It happens, everyone is human.  No realistic employer thinks that their staff is 100% efficient 100% of the time.  I don't see the difference in wasting time by falling asleep over socializing.  Heck, wasting other people's time is even worse!  If it was one of my staff who fell asleep and it didn't happen regularly, I wouldn't worry about it.  

But, if it is chronic, then the employee is taking advantage of the company and it should be discussed with them.  If they are getting their sleep during work hours, that is stealing from the employer.  

RE: Workplace Scenario

(OP)
Romeo,  "If it was one of my staff who fell asleep and it didn't happen regularly, I wouldn't worry about it."     
 That's a good remark.
 
 

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