'Certs Required' note on drawings
'Certs Required' note on drawings
(OP)
I'm getting requests to add a note to various drawings stating that certs (sometimes both material and process verification) be supplied along with parts. I am accustomed to putting this requirement on the P.O. but never on the drawing. The thing that I am concerned about is that the next problem will be a request to specify lot size or individual part certs and that will lead to serialization notes and before I'm finished I'll be writing an entire spec as a drawing note. Many of these drawings would have to be extensively redrawn to fit all of this 'dialogue'. This brings me to what I would like to see as a solution: a 'Required Certs' spec which could be referenced by a short note on the drawings, like:
3. "CERTS REQUIRED PER SPEC#####.1.2, LOT SIZE PER 3.4"
Does this seem like a viable solution?
3. "CERTS REQUIRED PER SPEC#####.1.2, LOT SIZE PER 3.4"
Does this seem like a viable solution?





RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
The only info listed on dwgs are info to make/build the part.
Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I would not suggest that information that certs are required, required lot sizes, supplier inspection information to be submitted or must be an ISO 9000 company, etc. be placed on the drawing.
All this information must be placed on the PO. Keep it there.
Dave
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I don't think I've ever seen the full requirements detailed on the drawings.
Only once or maybe twice have I seen a document referenced by the drawing which contained this but normally that document also had other information that did help define the part as well.
If it’s literally the same requirements for all the parts, or they can be put in a reasonable number of categories, you may want to create a spec covering this which can be referenced by the PO. Although arguably raising this doc should be QA, Purchasing or maybe manufacturing’s job by doing it yourself and giving it to them at least you’ll seem proactive/meeting them half way.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
John Nabors
"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." - Friedrich von Schiller
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
We manufacture some pumps for the SeaWolf program and on those drawings they list revisions to material specs. It's really hard to find material to old specs when a mill produces material to the latest revision to the material spec.
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RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
We put out a drawing and it tells the limits of what is acceptable, but what if during the manufacturing process an unforseen step they follow has a detrimental effect on the finished part. A drawing should not control every step in the manufacture. Following an unacceptable step may lead to a part with unacceptable properties.
I like the idea of a cert spec, however, it must be a separate document which could be referenced by the drawing but revised independantly to accommodate relative changes.
Robert
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
Definitely use ASTM, SAE, or other certification when specifying a material, your vendor better have material that meets those certs, but as far as requiring certs to accompany incoming material is not to be mentioned on a drawing.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
These docs will become part of the deliverables as noted on the P.O.
Thanks for all of your input - that's what makes this website such a great resource.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
John Nabors
"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." - Friedrich von Schiller
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
We flag the charecteristics and reference the spec. Done.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
John Nabors
"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." - Friedrich von Schiller
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I believe that is the note that did start this whole thread. And one very simple reason to not put that note on the drawing is because you are doing a demo or prototype of a new product that is an "upgrade" of the first. You will reuse many parts. Do you want to go through the whole quality control process for a prototype? And the associated expense? How do you accept the materials without certs, because you don't need them for a prototype, without having to make a drawing change since the note is on the drawing?
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
One hundred parts and four material certification in reality don't really have any informative value.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
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RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I think the way you are doing it seems reasonable.
If the drawing states the material requirements (e.g. Al Aloy 6061-T6) it is not up to the drawing to try and verify that the drawing requirements have been followed.
This is the responsibility of QA (with input from manufacturing and Purchasing as required).
Usually I think this should be in the PO or QA plan which shouldn't normally be referenced by the drawing.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I'll quote ASME Y14.100, 4.26.6j in full:
"Notes shall not include contractural requirements such as statements of costs; time and place of delivery; methods of payment; and requirements of for submission, approval, or distribution of data, reports, or plans."
It can be argued that the reference to distribution of data precludes requiring certs in the drawing notes, but then there is the previous clause, 4.26.6i:
"Parts and assemblies associated with special items and processes shall be identified in accordance with para. 7. Drawing notes may provide the basis for the special item and process or make direct or parenthetical reference to documentation that provides such information."
My humble and possibly misguided opinion is that any process that is not uniformly applied to all material that is controlled by an organization's engineering documents is a special process, and that 4.26.6i provides for requiring certs in the drawing notes as supporting documentation for that special process. Does that make any sense?
John Nabors
"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." - Friedrich von Schiller
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
I think it is an erroneous jump in logic to put special processes and cert requirements together based on that directive. A special process is one that is followed to produce a desired outcome. A cert is a document showing that the special process was followed.
The note already tells you what to do. It is up to quality to determine if it was done properly. The drawing is not the place for that information, as it would be redundant.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
Detailing how to verify that those requirements have been met shouldn't generally go on the drawing.
Except as sometimes partly implied by GDT etc you don't detail how the part is to be dimensionally measured and how the results are to be recorded on the drawing. Why do it for material properties/process?
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
As usual ... I agree.
Chris
SolidWorks 06 5.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
IMO, ewh and KENAT are right. A cert is not a design specification or a process, it's just one possible method to verify them. If a vendor did not have an established quality system, we might choose instead to sample and test every lot.
In my experience, certs end up on drawings when someone in the organization (often in R&D) does not trust the Quality Assurance and/or Purchasing groups to do their jobs adequately, and tries to force the issue through a document over which they have more direct control than an inspection procedure or purchase order. This is a misuse of the engineering drawing.
RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: 'Certs Required' note on drawings
My company started making Purchasing Spec's which tells the Purchasing Dept what to except from the vendor. We also have QC documents that the vendor is often responsible to fill out. These are separate documents that are linked through our PLM in one fashion or another.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
http://sw.fcsuper.com/index.php