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Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?
8

Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

(OP)
Which is correct?
     Canada wins their rugby match against Ireland! or
     Canada win their rugby match against Ireland.
(I'm not talking about the validity of the statement - only on the use of the plural or singular verb!!)

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Neither.  You used the plural/singular conjugations of "win", but not with the correct pronouns.

"Canada wins its rugby match against Ireland!"

or

"The Canadians win their rugby match against Ireland!"

Don
Kansas City

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I believe that, of the two examples, the first one is correct. However, I don't believe either of them are grammatically correct, they are more akin to a headline. I think 'Canada won their rugby match..." would be more correct, at least for the past tense as your sentences suggest.
If you extened your sentences, as in:
Canada wins their rugby match(es) against Ireland every time!
then the "plural" form of the verb would make sense.

That being said, it's not actually plural is it? Isn't that an adverb or something like that?

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
CAD Administrator
SW '07 SP1.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

The second statement is correct (nation is singular), although I would retain the exclamation mark, possibly adding a few more.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

A nation in conceptual meaning is a plural word because it means a group of states regions or peoples but grammatically speaking is a singular word. The name of the nation can be either singular or plural; for instance United States is plural, Arab Emirates is plural, Spain and Canada are singular. The name of the nation being plural or singular should follow the grammatical rule for the plural or singular, I suppose.  

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

2
To continue 0707's direction, in your OP you are not referring to the nation, you're using a sort-of verbal shorthand to refer to a sports team.  No matter how you phrase the statement, the subject of the sentence is really a singular noun.  

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

There may be a difference between British and USA usage in this issue. In British usage, collective nouns tend to be treated as plural words while in USA usage they tend to be treated as singular. I have noticed that difference in the use of business names. A corporation in the USA is treated as a single person in US law and as a singular word in grammar. In British grammar, a corporation is treated as a plural word.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

In almost all cases, 'nation' is a singular collective noun, and would take a singular verb.  It's almost always singular because you're referring to the entire nation as a single entity.

The United States is at war in Iraq.
The United Arab Emirates is an oil-producing nation.

Canada wins their/it's match.  Singular, but brings up another issue.  Either 'their' or 'it's' is correct.  The notion of the 'singular they' is growing in popularity, especially in statements just like this, where the antecedent is a collective, singular, and personal noun.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Quote:

In British usage, collective nouns tend to be treated as plural words

Uh?  What part of Britain is this then?  Collective nouns are singular here too.  The only word (type) that confuses the unwashed here is "none".  People tend to (wrongly) treat it as a plural.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Quote (CC):

Canada wins their/it's match.  Singular, but brings up another issue.  Either 'their' or 'it's' is correct.  The notion of the 'singular they' is growing in popularity, especially in statements just like this, where the antecedent is a collective, singular, and personal noun.
Of course, that should be 'its' and not "it's".
blush

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

There is a lot of people there.  OR There are a lot of people there?

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

What does "there" refer to?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

an event.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

SomptingGuy:

My recollection may be faulty, but I am pretty sure that I have come across a good number of instances of corporate business name usage something like:

"Ford are expected to lose a lot of money this year."

I have been wondering about that usage for quite a while.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

COEngineeer - If you replace 'there' by the name of the event, what do you have?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I never knew "Ford" was a collective noun.  A river crossing, yes (with a small f) and a minor car producer (with a big F), but never a collective noun.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Ok, so if I replace There with the event.. its going to be..

Bazaar is a lot of people. That doesn't make sense.

There is referring the subject or object?

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I think it suppose to be :  There are a lot of people at the party.  But I think a lot of people say "There is".

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

A lot is a lot. It is singular.

So " Bazaar is a lot of people" makes sense to me.

a lot= one lot, plural would be lots.

There are lots of people at the party. or There is a lot of people at the party.

A Bazzar is a sigular item.

So a Bazzar can have a lot of people or lots of people.


RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

We've covered this ground before...

thread1010-104593

:)

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

As for the original post: In general I agree with "eromlignod".

There are several issues:

One, I would think a Nation is singular.

Two, News headlines do not always adhere to proper grammar.

Third, Is a Nation masculine, faminine or a neutral entity?

I have often read nation or  a country referred to as She or her (feminine entity).




RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Nations are female, are practically all single, but not virgins (I'd explain that further but this post would be deleted). Possibly the only nation I know that isn't single would be the United Kingdom of Great Britain et al, which is in some kind of polygamous relationship of the kind only allowed in remote parts of Utah.

corus

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I was listening to the radio this morning and the presenter said "there is only a handfull of tickets left.", which sounded odd to me even though "a handfull" is clearly singular.  Similarly "a few".

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

SomptingGuy and rbulsara:
You are both sort of in a gray area.  It depends on what your subject actually is, and possibly your version of English.  In SomptingGuy's case, the more common usage (at least in the US) would be to say that "tickets" is the subject, which is plural, and "a handful of" is an adjective phrase describing the number of said tickets.  Replace "a handful of" with a specific number and you will see that "There is six tickets left" is obviously incorrect.  However, another possible interpretation is that "handful" is the subject and "of tickets" is the adjective phrase, such as in the sentence "His handful of tickets is bigger than mine".

rbulsara's situation is the same.  The phrase "a lot of people" is most commonly understood to be "people" with "a lot of" being the adjective phrase describing quantity.  So you would say, "There are a lot of people at the auction." "A lot of" modifies "people".

However, if there happened to be a big box of Christmas ornaments being sold all together, you would say, "There is a lot of Christmas ornaments being sold at the auction."  "Lot" is the subject and "of Christmas ornaments" describes the lot that is for sale as a single item.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

that makes sense handleman.. a star for you!  Finally I understand it..  Welll ... sorta.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I am not convinced.

I can understand "are" preceding "a of something" in the following case:

For example: They are a bunch of morons.

But not:  There were a lot of people.

I would say "There were lots of people or there was a lot of people"


RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

ok.. now im confused again.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

In the context of normal, US English usage, the sentence "There ____ a lot of people", the intent of this sentence is to convey the presence of a large quantity of people.  Therefore, the word "people" is the subject (noun).  People is plural, therefore you use "were".  Whether you say "There were a lot of people" or "There were lots of people", "people" is always the subject and "a lot of" or "lots of" is a modifier.  "Lot" is only the subject of the sentence if you are referring to a group of things as a whole.  In that context, "lot" means the same thing as "group", with no implication of a large number.  When "lot" is used as the subject, actual number of people could be as small as two or three.  

Non-US english may be different.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Thats what I thought Handleman. But I hear people saying
"There is a lot of people" all the time.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Quote:

Therefore, the word "people" is the subject (noun)

Strictly speaking, is not the word "people" the object of the prepostion "of" and not the subject of the sentence?  It would be incorrect to say "there ___ a lot of they"; obviously it should be "there ____ a lot of them."

Is the subject "lot" or is it "there"?  Or with the verb "to be" is there even a distinction?  "There" can take either the singular or plural verb (is/are). What about "lot"? "A lot" connotes singular, so I suppose it would thecnically be correct to say "There is a lot of people" but that doesn't really sound right does it?  I'm willing to accept "There are a lot of people" as acceptable grammar and an exception to the rule.

But why don't we just say "Wow, what a crowd!" and avoid the issue altoghter?

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

"There" is not the subject of the sentence.  "There" is a preposition describing the location of the people.  I'm really not sure where you're going with the "they/them" thing.

"A lot of" is most commonly used in US, informal English as an adjective substitute for "many" or "much".  If that is the intended meaning, the correct wording is "There are a lot of people at the auction".  To test and see if that is the intended meaning, replace "a lot of" with some actual number and see if the meaning changes: "There are 10,000 people at the auction" means the same thing - it's crowded.

Much less common usage, but also grammatically correct, would be if the intention is to say that there is a group of things, and those things just happen to be people.  In that case, "lot" is the subject.  If changing "a lot" to "a group", "a team", or "a gathering" really says what you want to say, then you could say "There is a lot of people at the auction."  Again, this usage makes no implication of a large number.  However, if you are really referring to a group you should probably use "group" instead of "lot".  Otherwise, people will be confused with common usage and think you're trying to describe a crowd.  


It is a pretty fine distinction. Either sentence can be gramatically correct standing on its own, they just mean different things.

There is a lot of people -> There is a group of people (no implication of large numbers)
There are a lot of people -> There are many people

Check http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/printable/537/ for reference if needed.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

yeah, you are making sense handleman.  Thanks!

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

In their second definition, Webster's lists there as a pronoun "used as a function word to introduce a sentence or clause", so under that definition it can be a subject.  Right?  I'll conceed if proven otherwise.

But I can't agree that people is the subject.  In this sentence it's clearly used in the objective case, for which the pronoun "them" could substitute: "There are a lot of them."  Them can't be the subject* since subjects must use the nominative case (ie, they), so neither can the word for which them is subsituting (people).  That was my reasoning anyway...

*Unless one is speaking redneck "Them's nice cars in your yard."

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

No, there rarely functions as the subject of a sentence.  When a sentence begins with 'there', the sentence is usually inverted, meaning the subject comes after the verb.

In the sentence, "There are a lot of them.", the subject is 'lot'.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Quote (corus):

Nations are female, ....

Germany - the fatherland
France - the motherland
Holland - the Netherlands (ha ha)

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I know that in the US, before our civil war (1860 - 1865), we were refered to in the plural - "the United States are..."

After the civil war, it changed to "the United States is..."

This sort of reflected the emphasis on more federal control over the country and less state independence.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

"the United States is"
hurts my ears just as much as
"the United Kingdom are"
would.

My ears tell me that whenever the noun is plural, the verb should be plural, no matter what.

Cf "more than one person is sick", "less than 2 people are eating".
Even though mathematically speaking "more than one person" refers to something plural (just like, geographically speaking, "the United States" refers to one country), grammar does not look further than the tip of its nose and considers it singular. At least in my universe.

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I would say:

 "The USA is a powerful nation"
& In another context
"United States of America are composed by 51 states? I am not sure of the amount, but somebody will correct me.

Cheers

Luis  

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

How would you say it in Portugese Luis?
In French I believe it is unthinkable to say anything else than "les Etats-Unis sont une nation puissante" to use your first example.
I agree though that if you replace United States by US it hurts less to say "is".

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Epoisses

Portuguese Grammatik is very similar to the French

"les Etats-Unis sont une nation puissante"

In Portuguese we say “Os Estados Unidos são uma nação poderosa”

Italians will say ” Gli S.U.A. sono una nazione potente”

Spanish say "Los E.E.U.U. son una nación de gran alcance"

I suppose we have to understand JAE quote
 
After the civil war, it changed to "the United States is..."

After Lincoln, US became a truly Union of states. Before Lincoln US were more a confederation.

For that reason we have to understand the quote:

“The United States is a powerful nation”

I also suppose for UK we have to say, “ United Kingdom is an old nation”

In Portuguese  we say “O Reino Unido é uma velha nação”

The same way the French say “Le Royaume-Uni est une vieille nation”

Regards

Luis

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Whether or not it's "the United States are" or "the United States is" depends on whether you're talking about a single entity or a collection of separate states.  Either can be correct depending on context.

The United States is a member of the UN Security Council.
The United States are empowered to enact local legislation, if not in conflict with federal law.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

I agree with the above.  However, when referring to the actual states, I would add an apostrophe to "The United States' are empowered to enact local legislation, if not in conflict with federal law" to show thats its possessive, the apostrophe shows that its theirs (the states are empowered, not the country).

Sokhansanj I.P.
Professional Patent Protection Services
WWW.SOKHANSANJ.COM

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

A nation is one, with many.  A nation is on nation with many people.  Canada singular, wins past tense, is what turns wins into the plural.  

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Back to the "there is a lot..." question:

I think that you can't necessarily look at the "is" in "there is" as an indicator of number in what follows.  In many people's dialect, "there is" (or more usually "there's") has become a standalone construction (a locative, for those who care) along the lines of the French "il y'a", which is the same for plural and singular.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

The side of the pond that you are from may have some stong bearing on your grammar.

There is much effort placed on good grammar and corret spelling on one side of the pond while grammar and spelling is not as important as delivering the message.

As long as gramma still makes good pies and cookies, everybody/every body is happy.

Bob Levy

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

Not sure, but was corret spelling a deliberate mistake, or was it the result of random chance

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
 

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

There are also different rules for what constitutes good grammar on both sides of the pond.  It is not the case that when in doubt, the UK side is correct.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Is a Nation "Plural" or Singular?

(OP)
I remember when, during the 1976 Olympics in Montreal, the US sports network missed the entrance of the United States team.  They broke for commercial after Equador (or so) failing to realize that, being in Quebec, they would use "Etats-Unis". smile

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