×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

whilst

whilst

(OP)
I’m a Brit now working in the USA.  When I have to prepare technical documents etc the word “whilst” occasionally creeps in.

My colleagues always laugh and tend to edit it out.

What’s wrong with whilstsmile

Anyone have any similar situations?

RE: whilst

As the Merriam-Webster dictionary states (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/whilst), what's wrong with whilst is that it is Chiefly British.  That's no good here in the USA.

:)

 

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: whilst

KENAT

I had the same “laugh and bafflement” reaction yesterday when I used “whilst”in a phone call with our colleges in the states, here is a good link that explains the while / whilst thing.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-whi2.htm

A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.

RE: whilst

(OP)
Sorry,

Didn't realize it had come up before.

I'm just going through a red-lined doc and they want "Especial attention is to be paid to...." Changed to "Special attention is to be paid to.....".

Personally I think it loses something in the translation!

RE: whilst

After reading a few Stephen King Dark Tower books, I was using "wot" once in a while.  Just seemed like a fun word.

RE: whilst

KENAT,

Since you mentioned special, I thought I might mention that Speciality is replaced with Specialty here in the USA.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: whilst

"Especial" as an adjective isn't really used in U.S. English; most people will think you're making an error even if you're not.  We know "whilst" but it's something out of a movie that has men wearing tights.

I leave "whilst" alone when editing documents for conference publication, which is more of an international forum, but I'd probably pull it out if the document was meant to be representing the voice of a U.S. entity.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: whilst

Quote (Dictionary.com):

—Usage note.  In American English the adjective special is overwhelmingly more common than especial in all senses: He will be of special help if you can't understand the documentation. The reverse is true of the adverbs; here especially is by far the more common: He will be of great help, especially if you have trouble understanding the documentation. Only when the sense “specifically” is intended is specially more idiomatic: The machine was specially designed for use by a left-handed operator.

cheers

RE: whilst

(OP)
When it comes to my use of the English Language I try to stick by "when in Rome...." and just make the corrections.

One word that really bugs me though is "healthful", I hate it.

I try to live a healthy lifestyle not a healthful one.

Fortunately, it's never come up at work.

RE: whilst

KENAT,

You may not like healthful, but it is used to make a distinction.  A person can be healthy if they eat food that is healthful.  Healthy food has good health, but may not provide good health to its consumer.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: whilst

In dealing with my American colleagues I intentionally differentiate between enquiry/inquiry, licence/license, practice/pratise, program/programme (and many others) which all have different meanings in English, but are spelled the same as each other in American.  I get called a lot of things by them.

RE: whilst

A useful expression for acknowledging one’s shortcomings:

“Hold my sword whilst I run upon it.”

RE: whilst

I have used the term "whilst" quite often and I was born and raised in Upstate NY.  I also like the word "germane".  Both terms raise eyebrows among my colleages, but they let it go.  My problem is having worked with Europeans, I frequently try to use their variations; I was one keystroke away from typing "amoung" above and I see nothing wrong with an "e" at the end like "programme", etc.  These I try to avoid.

RE: whilst

(OP)
To me-

"Whilst maintaining the value of variable A adjust variable B..."

Sounds better, especially in a formal document than

"While maintaining the value of variable A adjust variable B..."

But I guess it's just me.  Like I said when it's pointed out to me that I've used it I change it.

Ken

RE: whilst

Blacksmith,

"programme" and "program" have distinct and different meanings in English English though.  We use the appropriate one for the given context.

RE: whilst

When I used to write eng docs, if there were any question about the wording (by myself or someone else), I changed it.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

RE: whilst

centre - center (not sure if this UK or canadian)
colour - color
grey - gray  (sometimes i forgot which is which)
neighbour - neighbor
aluminium - aluminum
aeroplane - airplane
  

These are some of the words I have noticed in 10 years learning english.

RE: whilst

(OP)
Centre is the usual UK spelling, least as far as I know.

RE: whilst

I grew up speaking Spanish and am now working in the US, where I obviously have to speak English. Being that English and Spanish both have similar roots (latin), it seems like the US English has departed a lot from its roots. Especial, special here in the US, it’s “especial” in Spanish. Aeroplane, “aeroplano” in Spanish. I’m a believer that if you understand what the other person is saying, it doesn’t matter what words he is using. But, it seems to be a big deal here. Don’t know why. I work in the south and most people can’t really speak properly. I do agree that you need to use the country’s proper vocabulary when writing.

RE: whilst


Aluminium (UK)vs Aluminum (US). "Whilst" many elements finish with "ium" (potassium, strontium, barium, cadmium, Americium etc.) The americans chose to change the rules for the single case of Aluminum.

Wheres the logic in the american date format
Month/Day/Year vs the more logical Day/Month/Year  

loose vs lose ?????? Did I loose something, maybe my horse; though that would be set loose.

Outta vs out of

ad infinitum

illegitimi non carborundum est.







RE: whilst

"The americans chose to change the rules for the single case of Aluminum. "

Really? It's always a pleasure to be lectured by an expert.

Platinum, Molybdenum and Tantalum spring to mind.

Davy originally named it alumium, then aluminum. but somebody else (presumably a pom) suggested aluminium to fit in with the other recently described metals.

-um is of course the latin ending for many metals, ferrum, plumbum, argentum and aurum for example.

So I think blaming the colonials for this one is a bit of a stretch.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: whilst

Nice one Greg
Obviously I cant be an expert in everything
So we can assign that particular case to being a multinational screw up.

FOETS
The truth is out there. Anyone know the URL?

RE: whilst

Whilst is a good word.  Good words should be used from time to time -  even if not precisely common depending on which side of the Atlantic divide from which one hails. English has so so many words meaning the same (or almost the same thing) - if you weren't meant to use them once in a while, why have so many (berk, wally, prat, for example). Same with spellings, in my view although I typically use British overseas and American back in the States - still, even in America, I sometimes use - tyre vs tire; deflexion vs deflection; kerb vs curb. As far as "z" or "s" - who cares?

RE: whilst

(OP)
mitchelon, although English has had a strong influence from Latin, I believe primarily via French, I was led to believe it's actually a germanic language.  I'm pretty sure it fell in that category in table at the back of my Dads old dictionary.  winky smile

RE: whilst

Aluminum vs Aluminium:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/aluminium.htm

English "roots":

"A computerised survey of about 80,000 words in the old Shorter Oxford Dictionary (3rd ed.) was published in Ordered Profusion by Thomas Finkenstaedt and Dieter Wolff (1973) that estimated the origin of English words as follows:

Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Other Germanic languages (including Old English, Old Norse, and Dutch): 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages contributed less than 1% "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

I always took the complex "roots" to be the main reason the language can be so darn difficult.  Its also my excuse for not learning too many other languages - I already had to learn pieces of at least four!

RE: whilst

BigH:
Rhyming slang (AKA - Cockney Rhyming Slang)

Berk, I believed, was shortened from The Berkley Hunt, which is rhyming slang for.....rude parts, oh dear, now I've said it.

My dad would have clumped me for saying that, even though he spent half his life in the navy. These days, the sort of language you only used to hear on the shop floor is on the TV, nightly.
A useful site:
http://www.hps.com/~tpg/ukdict/index.php


I'd be willing to bet that a majority of sub-25 years olds in the UK haven't read a book for pleasure in the last year.

Bill

RE: whilst

Now that I've caught my breath,gotten up from the floor and wiped the tears from my eyes I want to WJG know that some of us like his,,,, humor.

There is NO excuse for the american date format.  I'm no fan of am/pm time either.

Clinging to fractional vs. metric , Farenheit (and to some extent "Celsius" ) vs. centigrade, and ,,,dare I say it - currencies vs. the gold standard (metric measure of course), are also examples of sound and valuable logic being cast aside by socio-political stupidity.

When a large percentage of people begin taking a lot more education and substance from their schooling and remember more facts than excuses ("when in Rome, do as the Romans do" and "get all you can ... poison the rest" for example), we may witness some better cooperation among people and nations.  Inequality pushes roots everywhere.

RE: whilst

(OP)
Um, HCB unless I'm missing something and misunderstanding Celsius is preferred to Centigrade.  Of course if we're being scientific here we'd use Kelvin.

Plus what's wrong with when in Rome...  If I was actually in Rome then speaking English be it American or the real kind would be somewhat silly as well as rude/arogant.  If one decides to move somewhere, especially another country, within reason (i.e. not breaking moral taboos etc) the onus is on you to change and adapt to fit in, not on them to change to accept you.

RE: whilst

Agreed.  Why bother speaking English in America?  Nobody understands you and if you think you can "correct" 250M people, you're wrong.  You might manage to persuade a few colleagues that their language isn't as sensible as they think ("snow" should rhyme with "plow" in a sensible language), but in general you have to adapt ... "No tomaytows please".

RE: whilst

Whilst we're off topic...

Even day/month/year isn't so sensible...the MSB should be on the left:  2006-12-04.

And fractional versus metric?  I'm 1 6/7 meters tall,
and I've never found a "metric" scale that will indicate my weight in Newtons.  Kilogram is a unit of mass, something that a typical bathroom scale doesn't intrinsically measure.

Now back to the original topic, already in progress... smile

RE: whilst

(OP)
So if you want to lose weight always weigh yourself using a conventional bathroom scale at the highest possible altitude, preferably away from any unusually dense geological formations.

RE: whilst

Quote:

Even day/month/year isn't so sensible...the MSB should be on the left:  2006-12-04.

Clearly not a nuts-and-bolts programmer then.  LSB first vs MSB first has been a religious debate for many years.

RE: whilst

Per SomptingGuy: "Why bother speaking English in America?"

A good question.

I remember my first visit to the USA. The boss sent me to the proving ground in Yucca, Az. for a couple of weeks.
First visit, on my own and sent to the middle of, just about, nowhere.
On the drive from Las Vegas to Havasu, I took the opportunity to tour the Hoover dam. Terrific !

At the beginning of the tour, you go down into the bowels of the dam in an Art Deco style lift (elevator) and when we got to the bottom, the guide assembled us and ran through a few pieces of technical info about the dam.

The guide was probably in his sixties, had a Roy Rogers shirt and one of those string ties with a sort of clasp on it at the neck. I mustn't forget to mention the boots. I don't know where he left his horse.

When he'd finished, he asked whether there were any questions.
Like a fool, I asked "How deep is the water on the lake side of the dam".
He looked at me as if I had addressed him in an obscure dialect of Latvian.
"Scuse me?"
So I repeated the question.
He paused and thought and excused himself again.
I repeated the question, only more slowly. This time he got the gist and it turned out is was something like 450 feet.

Second problem was getting the nice waitress at the restaurant to understand me. We finally settled on a few items off the menu that she thought I'd asked for.
The people at the track weren't too bad. They liked to do  their best to make us Brits look dumb, and sometimes suceeded.

It's that business about being divided by a common language, again.

Bill

RE: whilst

Hi SomptingGuy,

No, I'm not a programmer, but I still think y-m-d is more logical.  If you say 04-12-2006, the most significant digit is in the middle, and unlike like time, which is sexagesimal, since the year is open-ended, there's no real base counting you can reckon on to say that you're counting in base [whatever year it is].

Cheers.

RE: whilst

But when speaking in words and sentences, do you say "May eighteenth two thousand six" or do you say "two thousand six may eighteen"?  

The m/dd is a representation of how the dates are spoken  here.  

That said, I agree that m/d/y is terrible from a logical viewpoint.  I am a dd/m sympathizer (not enough support around me for putting the year first other than in file and directory names) but peer pressure gets to me with the result that it's kind of random which way I write it.  If I'm really looking to be unambiguous I spell out the name of the month.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: whilst

(OP)
Spell out the month!  Being from Britain originally I tend to say 18th May not May 18th and am used to writing dd/mm/yy(yy).  I try to use yyyy-mm-dd for file names etc.  Being in the US I now try and use mm/dd/yy when writing but still have to think about it so for the 'low days of the month' often spell out the month to avoid confusion.

RE: whilst

I'd say:
May THE 18th, two thousand AND six.
Rule Britannia

Bill

RE: whilst

I lived both sides of the world using mm/dd or dd/mm and I do not think any one style is more logical or confusing than the other. It's just a preference or tradition. I was perfectly comfortable with mm/dd earier and after arriving in USA, after some initial adjustment got used to mm/dd.

People are just more comfortable with format they grew up on.

Confusion could arise out of using a document registered or created in one country (like a birth certificate) in another using different date writing style. But it is only a matter of clarifying it there.

I also use yymmdd for file names. I do however spell out month on offical government type of documents, just to avoid confusion.

RE: whilst

KENAT: "One word that really bugs me though is "healthful", I hate it.  I try to live a healthy lifestyle not a healthful one."

I agree with you about the constant misuse of these two words - "healthy" for "healthful."  I am healthy.  That carrot is healthy - it was raised in conditions that prompted good size, color, vitamin content, etc.  The carrot is healthful, however, for me to eat.

"Healthy" describes my state of health.  "Healthful" applies to how something else is beneficial to my state of health.

RE: whilst

(OP)
I don't remember the word Healthful ever coming up in the UK.

You had health food but not healthful food.

Anyone from the old country back me up?

RE: whilst

100%.

I can understand the distinction, but am 99% sure the British English for 'healthful' is 'good for you'.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: whilst

"Healthful" sounds plain wrong to these British ears!

RE: whilst

I had never even heard the word until Kenat mentioned it.  I can honestly say it doesn't crop up in conversation.  That said I haven't spoken to all the 60 million folk over here so thats not to say that its not used somewhere.

I tried looking up the Oxford English Dictionary, but it appears you need to pay.  Bu i suppose at 20 volumes it is slightly more comprehensive than your average dictionary.

RE: whilst

(OP)
Thanks guys, I didn't think it was just me.

RE: whilst

A friend of mine from Australia uses "whilst," but I can understand a lot of US folks being put off by it - it sounds old-fashioned to us, or too "English" English.  I don't personally have a problem with it, although I haven't ever used it myself, "whilst" not being part of the lexicon where and when I grew up.  With my interest in history, I do a lot of reading of 19th Century documents - from both sides of the Atlantic - and come across words like this all the time.  I like meeting new words - or should I say, old words I've never met before.  

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources