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What to do about unethical former employer
6

What to do about unethical former employer

What to do about unethical former employer

(OP)
I entered full time employment in May 2006(still finishing BS Civil/Env. w/ two distance learning courses).  I went to work for a land surveyor that owns an engineering firm, and came to find out that he was making other employees fill out new time sheets with hours charged to projects that weren't being worked on, and then shred the old, correct time sheet.  

I have since moved from the area and have found work at a ready-mix plant w/ the main duty of being project manager for constructing a new ready-mix plant.

My question is if there is anything I can do about my former employer; he sits on the board for the Pro. land surveyors, and the evidence of his actions is routinely destroyed.  I know he has done this for a long time, since while I was looking for other employment I spoke with someone who had worked for this same person about a decade earlier and witnessed the same thing.

I think something should be done, but I don't have evidence to prove his actions.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I have been filling out ficticious timesheets for most of my career.  There are dozens of different ways to bill projects, and it's rare that what goes on the timesheet goes to the client. Some projects are bid with a lot of gravy, while others are marginal.  A lot of timesheet massaging is to redistribute hours so that one project doesn't look incredibly profitable while another ends with a loss.  I don't think it's any more dishonest than to put down half an hour on your timesheet when you fielded a five minute phone call on another project and spent 10 minutes checking your email.

In the first instance, I think it's vindictive to report him without confronting him first.  Secondly, I don't think that it's worth jepordizing your career over since you (a) don't have any evidence and (b) don't know for certain that clients were being billed directly off the timesheets.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I agree with fransesca.  Every project has a budget limit on the contract.  As long as he maintains the budget as much as the contract, its all good.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Grubbyky,
I agree with Francesca that you should let this go, for your own sake.  But I absolutely think that messaging timesheets is a despicable practice.  For one, in the public sector timesheets are often subject to audit by the various agencies, particularly for cost plus types of projects.  Another problem is that this is very demoralizing for the project manager whose project is getting the bogus charges.  Luckily I have never had this done to my projects.  Good thing because I would not put up with this, would make a lot of noise and probably get myself fired.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Timesheet "massaging" has been the norm in the 2 consultants that I have worked for. I view it as a form of "creative accounting". Don't even worry one bit about it. In your career you will see far, far more unethical behavior that this timesheet business. In 10 years you will be wondering why you thought that timesheets were a problem after everytime else that you will experience.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Frankly I'm shocked that 2 responders apparently agree and see nothing wrong with this practice, without knowing any additional details at all.  You guys can't be sure its one of those "it all comes out in the wash things".  Grubbyky is sufficiently upset about this, so I would assume he certainly thinks its gone past the point where he, at least, thinks the practice was not fair to the clients involved.

Discuss this with the owner?  Why?  That's like going to the "Hole in the Wall" and asking Sundance to return the money to the Union Pacific Railroad.  I see nothing coming from that strategy.  There is no requirement for Grubbyky to confront the purp and discuss this with him, and possibly create a "situation" in the process.  If public funds are involved and you know that this practice occured, you have a public duty to report it directly to the officials responsible for those funds.  And actually, If you don't, you could be considered an accomplice too.

Evidence?  In this situation Grubbyky has no responsibility to be presenting anyone with evidence.  That is the job of the investigation board or the police.  If he knows this is going on, he must report it with or without evidence.   

As long as you don't go over the project budget?  What has budget got to do with a correct and proper bill?  What do you do on a cost+ project?  What's the limitation there? I sincerely hope "COE" isn't short for Corps of Engineers.

My clients see and sign my timesheet.

Grubbyky, if you do have a sense of moral responsibility towards something you know is definately wrong and are outraged sufficiently to the point where you feel you must do something, (not in a spirit of revenge), you should file a complaint, perhaps with the registration board, or with the public officials in your area that are responsible for looking into those matters.   If they throw your complaint away, you still know YOU did the right thing.

So what's the deal?  Did you guys work for Enron or something?

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

BigInch,

You have (Petroleum) next to your name, so I'm assuming you're not a civil engineer.  In my experience working in civil/surveying companies, timesheets are for internal accounting purposes only. I have never worked somewhere where exact timesheet hours are billed to a client. It's not the same thing as a direct contract worker relationship.  

Yes, lieing on a timesheet is wrong, but if nobody is injured in the process, where is the harm? Timesheets have nothing to do with a company's profit and loss, either.  Profit and loss accounting uses payroll, not employee productive hours. Your comparison to Enron is a bit of a stretch, though I appreciate it was made in jest.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

My employer's accounting is similar to what Fran described. The jobs that we do on Time & Materials are small ones and are infrequent. The timesheet "juggling" that goes on around here is a way to keep the owner happy. The owner prefers to see that all jobs are profitable, rather than a mix of some that are highly profitable and others that are not profitable at all. As a "worker bee" it makes no difference to me as I am on salary. And like Fran said, it doesn't cause any physical injury.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Francesca,

No & Yes  

No=In my previous life I was a Texas Reg PE in Structural and worked for 2 large "civil" companies in Houston, Turner, Collie & Braden, and Lockwood, Andrews & Newnam.  I didn't see it going on there.  

Yes= For the last 20+ years I traded in "TCB" for things like "BTC", Baku, Tbilisi-Ceyhan. I appreciate a good sense of humor.

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I would never tell somebody to revise their time sheet - it's wrong.  I hear what the other folks are saying, but in the final analysis even on a lump sum project documenting the actual hours spent on the job documents the project history that can be use to set the fee for the next project.  It just makes good business sense to document the actual hours. On a time and materials project it would likely be seen as fraud.

I also wonder how it would be handled if you were brought in to litigation and folks looked at the time sheet records wherein it was determined that you altered these records.  I'd say, there'd be some tall explaining to do.

I've always (well since 1977) documented my actual time on projects give or take a few for the coffee pot, or other daily interruptions (like this forum - ha).

f-d

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

You could probably forget about getting registered in that state.

Fattdad,  I didn't mean to imply things are entirely black or white either.  Relax, "reasonable and customary" labor expense includes "coffee break", "afternoon "tea", a 4:15 asprin, and one maybe two short phone calls to the "significant other" and all clients expect to have those "reasonable" items included in their bill.  I'd even include these forums, under a thread title related to the work you are doing, but not all, whereas personal e-mails, etc. etc., well that's another story, isn't it?  

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I do work for a civil/surveying consultant and disagree that time sheets are only for internal use.  Many of our projects are billed on a time basis and alteration of the time sheets may amount to fraud.  There are times when we need to document site visits or meetings and we need to have the timesheets consistent with reports or meeting notes.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Changing timesheet at our office is more for billable hrs.  Sometime the drafters have to work on projects that went over budget so we cant bill their time.  It is not fair they cant get bonus for their time so we increase their time on other projects that is under budget so their billable % is higher, hence better bonus.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

2
The belief that shifting hours to make all projects appear profitable is very short sighted and foolish.  As was said, you should bill what was done to see what you should budget for the next.  Perhaps you are not profitable on a certain type of project, or perhaps a person is consistently not profitable, or maybe it is a certain client.  When you move it around, you have no way to tell.  Heck, you could be missing revenue for legitimate overages.

If you take the time to look at why the particular jobs are loosing money, you will be better off in the end.  It is called learning from your mistakes.  If you want to know how you are doing overall, then run a summary report for the year.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I don't think revising time sheets is an appropriate thing to do.

It was stated that they are used for internal accounting only (true on lump sum jobs), but those revisions can distort that same internal accounting. Internal record keeping can be important in future bidding and assessing work performance among other things.

As far as hourly employees, their performance assessment relevent to billable hours should not hinge on whether a project has gone over budget. Cost control is the PMs job.

In the above cases, if the company wants to massage time sheets, it's really their loss.

For time and materials jobs, like work we do on government contracts which bill hourly time straight off the timesheet; massaging a timesheet could be considered theft.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Stealing from Peter to pay Paul, leaves Paul happy, but amounts to theft from Peter, no matter how you look at it.  It doesn't matter if Peter is a private individual or company or a public service.  If Peter is a public service, you're not only stealing from Peter, but from each and everyone.  I don't see the confusion.

Just as an added bonus, in many places, if you report fraud against a public entity and a sucessful case is prosecuted, you may be entitled to collect a sizable percentage of the penalties assessed as well.  

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

So let me get this straght - I hire your firm to work on a billable hour basis and you give me rates that you bill out. You under estimate a project and a PM (probbably the guy who made the budget) blows the estimate. So rather than a) sucking it up and calling the owner to get an increase, or b) eating the loss, the choices are cheating the guy who did all of the gut work out of some compensation or cheating me by inflating the estimate and billings on my project so no one gets hurt? As a client I may not be as accepting about that behavior.
If you work half a day and that includes a couple of cups of coffee and a call from the wife I don't have a problem with that. If you work half a day for me and half a day for the other project and I pick up the bill for both - That's fraud.
Grubbyky You will find fights you can win and fights you can't. Very few of the ones you can't are worth fighting. This is one of those you should walk away from. Learn from it and resolve to deal fairly with those who trust you with their buisness.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Just as a clarification, like most of the responders I too feel that timesheet "modification" is not right either, but I don't make the rules where I work. It's their way or the highway. From what I've seen here for the past 6 years, it's low on their list of unethical deeds.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

quote from DRC1:  Grubbyky You will find fights you can win and fights you can't. Very few of the ones you can't are worth fighting. This is one of those you should walk away from. Learn from it and resolve to deal fairly with those who trust you with their buisness.

I think that's the correct resolution:  Pick your battles.  Take the high road.  If it doesn't pass the stink test than it's not right and you should move on.  Now that you are in a better place, I'd just chalk it up to life's lessons and move on.  Hopefully you can learn from your new colleagues and they agree with your perspective on business matters such as these.

f-d

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Timesheet fudging is not tolerated where I work and since we work for the government, we are routinely audited.

Just because a project has a limit doesn't mean that it has to be met.  Some projects finish below budgets and others over.  When the budgets are over and there is a good reason like scope was increased, the client and firm should agree on a new ceiling.  If not, oh well.  Fudging time sheets isn't going to win the day since "it's only legal if you get caught" then someday you'll get caught and what a big fine that will be....even losing your license to do business.  Most certainly your credibility as a company....what client wants to work with a suspect company....next thing you know, we didn't really need that stability check anyway....I can save some time there and bill that out as having checked it.  Nutty.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I used to work for a large civil consultant where everyone had to complete timesheets accurately.  In Europe this is the law under the EU Working Time Directive which is there to prevent people working too many hours over a set time frame.

This used to cause a problem in the billing of the clients.  Most if not all staff worked unpaid overtime.  Which the company would not charge to the project.  They took the view that as we are not paying the staff the time shouldnt be recorded against the budget (shortsighted as then at the end of the job you dont really know how many hours it took so will underestimate the next project.  Not a problem as the staff still work for free).  

To get round this there was a dump code which went nowhere except to prove the exact number of hours an individual worked.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

IMO, that practice is even worse for a lot of reasons, although perhaps legal if you play with the exempt and nonexempt classifications.  In Spain it is illegal to do that, as I believe it is in the whole of the EU, no?

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

To which point are you referring?  Not charging all the hours worked to the client? or people working unpaid overtime in general?

The unpaid overtime code came to comply with the law, so the company knew how many hours staff were actually working.  They would check the hours and if anyone was working too much they were told to reduce their hours.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Time sheets should not be changed by management or changes directed by management, unless there is an error in the timesheet.  In the end the timesheet should reflect ALL of the hours worked by the employee on each job/project/task that the employee worked.  That is the LAW in the US if you work on ANY government projects (DOE, DOD, etc).

Now whether or not the employee gets paid for all of those hours depends on if the employee is exempt or non-expempt and the terms of their employeement.  Along the same line of thought, whether the client gets bill for all of those hours depends on the terms of the contract between the client and the company.

With respect to some of the other comments that have been made;

1.  If you don't record all of the time you work on a project, then the company has no idea if that project is making the company money or not.  Obviously a very important piece of information for any company.

2.  No client should EVER be billed for work that was performed on a different project.  That is theft by any other name.

With respect to the original post, unless the company works for the federal government, I would drop it and be glad to be working somewhere else.  However, if federal contracts, and possibly state depending ont the state, were involved, I would call the agency and "drop a dime" on the employeer.  Not to be vendictive, but to ensure that a. they no longer get federal contracts and b. that the tax payer's are not paying more and getting less.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Ussuri,

Unpaid overtime (even to exempt classified employees) is not permissible, if the unpaid overtime can be considered a regular practice of the company.

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Big Inch

I'm not sure whether this is illegal or not, maybe someone with a better legal background than me can chime in.

Everywhere I have worked senior staff do not get paid overtime while junior staff do.  I have no idea why this is the case.  They just get paid their salary every month regardless of the hours worked.  But nearly all the senior staff I know work more than the basic 37.5 hours on which the salary is based.  Is this illegal, I dont see why if they want to give their time to company free of charge.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I'm no lawyer..  And If I was a lawyer, I wouldn't know what the law was in your jurisdiction anyway, so its best to get a knowledgable opinion where you live Germany/ France?.  But as I understand things, the law exists to prevent or rectify unfair practices, whatever they may be.

Legality of the practice I think involves "fair compensation", which can take many forms, end-of-year bonuses, profit sharing, equal time off, assisted share purchases, vestment in pension plans, etc.  I would assume the general rule is that senior types would be entitled to a larger share of those benefits, whatever form they come in, and hence the fair practice would be maintained with increased years of service.

Why would someone want to work for a profit making organization "free of charge"?  Where's the fairness in that?  That is not to say I don't work for free, but I reserve that time for those who [color]cannot[/color] pay and desperately need help.  I volunteer for non-profit making organizations and spend some of my time designing and installing small village water supply and irrigation systems in South America and Africa.  This system was installed this year.

I learned how to design a 200 VDC solar power system for the pump... not easy.  (it was an existing 200 VDC motor)



http://www.faces-gambia.org/website.htm

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Senior and Junior staff get the same benefits package (leave, life insurance, private health care, pension, share purchase scheme) with the exception that the junior staff also get overtime.  Senior staff will have a higher salary which may include a percentage for hours over the standard 37.5 hours.  But I find it hard to believe its illegal as it is common practice in my experience.

I will quite happily work unpaid overtime if it means I can get a batch of drawings or a tender out the door on Friday.  OK, this benefits the company more than me, and I maybe should have a more mercenary attitude when it comes to my time.  But we digress from the original topic.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Everybody has to find their own balance.  

Common practice varies widely from country to country and culture to culture, and company to company, some more sensitive and flexible than others, some more demanding.  One company I worked for absolutely prohibited any unpaid hours because they refused to sell their only product for free, and had a tendency to burn out their employees and force them to look for other work.  Another didn't mind, as long as the client was charged for the hours and compensation time was liberally granted in return.  What's the norm in the US and England is pretty far from for example the Mideast, or for that matter, Sweden or France.

Despite what the common practice may be in your area, usually interesting variations can be found in the local laws, both as written and as interpreted by the labor boards.    

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I will note that I had a plumber come over last week to fix the sink.  He worked to 8:30 pm.  Even though he normally quits at 6, he didn't work the extra time for free and he charged me the whole additional 2:30, including a call to his wife saying he would be late.  Is there some reason you know of explaining why there is such a difference between somebody who draws pipes and somebody who installs them?  I think they teach more about business in plumbing school than they do in engineering college.

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I know what you say makes sense and I'm sure all those would love to get paid for the additional hours worked.  But having said that maybe its a culture thing, but certainly in the UK most people work more hours than they are paid for, at least in my experience.  

I find it hard to believe there are not engineers in the US who work that little bit extra for which they are not paid just to get the job done before the weekend, or to put in a little more time to come up with a better design which gives a little satisfaction.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Of course there are US engineers who will give a little extra just to get the job done, or done right.

Engineers are stupid that way.

By which I mean, a fair number of shops here have had the unmitigated gall to formalize the practice, and _demand_ unpaid overtime, as in "We'll pay you for 40 hrs/wk, and expect you to work at least 50."



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

They sure do, sometimes even in job ads.  Because engineers are usually 'exempt', it's perfectly legal here in the US.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

The reputation of the U.S. private sector (probably worse in certain non-engineering fields) is that many salaried workers will work FAR more than 40 hr/wk for no additional compensation (though maybe they wouldn't draw their high  base salary, or possible bonuses, if they didn't produce the results they got from that level of work).

When my classmates and I were first on the job market, the impression I got was that in the private sector in my field I could expect to work 50-60 hours per week, or worse.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I worked 15 years in the States and "exempt" only goes so far.  If overtime is habitual at your company, and is without compensation, you may be able to make an issue of it.  The cases I recalled above were judgments made under US Labor law.  Sorry I don't remember exact details.  I think it might be worth a phone call.

P.S. Call from home.

BigInchworm-born in the trenches.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Our company policy doesn't tolerate fudging time sheets but the management also won't tolerate utilization of less than 92% for most of the staff. So let's face it, sometimes we have to help a colleague along.

Regarding overtime: If it's billable we're paid; if it's not it's considered part of the job. A previous employer used to keep track of the unpaid hours and compensate us somewhat in the annual increase, and there were bonus payments in our 401k as well, but after we were sold those practices were lost. Now, only the officers of the company receive bonuses.

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

Most engineers I've worked with (in the UK) do extra hours for free. In the private sector MORE engineers do extra hours than in government employment.

I've always believed that my salary reflects the job that I do and not the hours I work. This is in contrast to the actual wording in my contract but never mind...

I have been asked, on occasion, to book time to tasks that I wasn't working on and did so knowing that the "fraud" was internal within the company.  I also work on jobs which are timecharged and would hope I have the integrity to not behave fraudulently in those cases.

My experience of timecharge work is that clients only permit this work for small sums and generally there is a cap not to be exceeded. As the cap is set at the top estimate for the job, the client rarely ends up paying more than would be the case with a lump sum fee...

RE: What to do about unethical former employer

I agree with Ussuri and pba that it is common practice to work 'free' overtime in the UK.

I have worked in both the public and private sectors.  People are expected to work unpaid overtime in the private sector, whilst in the public sector you work no more than 37 hours a week, as any excess is given back to you via. flexible working arrangements.

VB

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