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OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS
2

OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
hi,

ive heard of "closed driveshafts" that were used on early 40-50's american cars, but never had the oppertunity to actually see or work on one. i beleive the actual driveshaft is inside a torque tube.  how do u get to the u-joints to remove the shaft, and what is the purpose of the tube?

thank you,

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

I don't recall seeing one up close, but I think the tube is actually stressed in bending, and is intended to resist the axle torque, just like the pressed I-beam that rides alongside the driveshaft in recent Camaros.  I.e., think of it as a single really long ladder bar, anchored near the transmission tailshaft.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
thanks mike,

but the driveshaft actually goes through the tube, correct?

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Yes, I think it does, and no, I don't know how to get the driveshaft out.  But it can't be terribly difficult; they were built on an assembly line.

It still may involve juggling heavy parts:
http://www.southernwheels.com/march-98Frame1Source1.htm

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
thanks again mike for the info, and link!
i always thought that those old closed type driveshafts would be alot of work to repair! wow!

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

If you do a web search on Peugeot workshop manuals you should be able to find a good description of them, and how to disassemble them.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

2

Mercedes Unimogs have a torque tube arrangement which is solid on the rear axle and pivots in a ball socket with U-joint inside at the front, and no U-joint at the rear. It is a beefy setup that absorbes the drive torque of the rear end, and serves as part of the suspension.

The Corvette has been using a cousin of the torque tube for the last several years. About the only difference is that the shaft goes from the engine flywheel, to a fixed transaxle in the rear, instead of a sprung live axle. The Pontiac Tempest had a very similar arrangement in the 60's. These systems do not use U-joints. Interestingly, a bow is used in the very long shaft instead of supports and bearings.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Hello
I used to own two old Chevy pickup trucks with the closed driveshaft. As I remember the actual driveshaft was solid steel about 1.25". There were bushings inside the tube. One end of the tube was permanently attached to the differential. The other hooked up by a threaded casing to the transmission. It was a slip-joint type rig with leather seals. Once you removed the upper casing and pulled it back, you could just unbolt the u-joint. Purpose? I only heard stories. Back then, they used their trucks for tractors. (Chev 235 engine had a torque peak at 1200 rpm and the truck had a load rating of something like 6000 lbs.) The closed shaft kept out the grime, vegetation, and livestock. Seeing how strong they were and how long they lasted, the closed driveshaft may have something to do with it.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
firefrog,

cool!  i thought that one of the benifits of the closed driveshaft would have been to protect the u-joints from water, dirt and so forth.  i think it was truely "overkill"  but in a good way!  i was born in 1960, so its interesting to explore old designs. i was born and raised a machanic, but only did it for about 12 yrs, then went to work for a large computer company as a customer engineer, and worked on laser printers!  alot of mecanical work there too, along with software. so i still got to do mecanical work, but came home from work almost as clean as i was when i left home to go to work!

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Ford Model A, and all the Fords up to the late 40s. Any old timer out there who has fooled around with street rods knows about them.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
wow!

the model a fords had a closed driveshaft setup? i heard they were  kind of confusing to shift, operate. throttle on steering coluum, floor pedals for some gears....

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Bobo60,

you are thinking of the Ford Model T...  This car actually has the torque tube driveline as well as a planetary transmission.  This amazing transmission only needed addition of a control scheme and some actuators...which would have made it essentially equivalent to modern automatic transmissions!

Ford used the closed (torque tube) style from the early teens through the 1950s.  It is a very robust system.

Dave

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Bob, ya gotta get out to the car shows more often.

Model T's had a three pedal arangement to operate the tranny because it was extremely simple.  Most folks of the early 20th Century had no knowledge of cars and Ford wanted something that was "idiot proof"...He got it...Press the left pedal to the floor and advance the throttle (on the steering wheel) and away you go in 'low'.  Let up the pedal all the way (half way is neutral) and it's in 'high'. That's all there is to it.  When stopped, depress the center pedal and advance the throttle and your backing up.  The right pedal is for the brakes.
A Model A has a conventional three speed non synchro gearbox and is driven like any modern car. Torque tube drivelines were used in early cars for, as has been pointed out, they are "bullet proof" and seldom needed service.

Rod

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

(OP)
thanks rod,

im ignorant about some old automobiles, but am willing to learn.  thats why i ask questions on this forum,as dumb as they may seem, to someone with vast knowledge of classic cars...bob

bob

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

I believe that my Dad's '69 Opel GT has an enclosed drive shaft. As was mentioned above, it works as a axle locating member. Prevents wheel hop with the sloppy leaf springs.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Rambler used them until mid 60's ----Phil

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Actually, Jay, they are not 'that' much heavier than an open drive line.  A bit, but not all that much.  The reliability factor is the big deal here.  "U" joints have not always been reliable exposed to the elements.  My 37 Buick torque tube was original, as installed by the OEM in 1936 and still functioning perfectly when I sold the car in the late 90's.  My Model A Ford (Mfg. date 11/13/30) is still as originally installed and functioning perfectly at a little over 130,000 miles and 76 years!!!  Hard to beat that, even with modern technology.  I think the reason you no longer see this setup is a combination of cost and ride quality in "normal" cars.  Some sports cars, Ferrari, Corvette, etc. still use a variation of the torque tube.

Rod

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Rod

I think the cars that still use torque tubes have IRS, so the tube becomes fully sprung rather than partially unsprung weight, and therefore has no effect on ride.

It effectively couples the reaction forces within the differential to the engine block and may allow for some weight savings elsewhere in the chassis.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Mazda MX5 (Miata) being a current example.

It's a very neat solution, although I'm a bit surprised to see it on sportscars as opposed to GTs. It can't be light.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

Greg, this is your area of expertise, but I suspect that chassis 'stiffness' as it relates to 'noise'  plays a roll in the selection in the Mazda and, particularly, in the all aluminium chassis of the new Ferrari.
I put a close 'eyeball' on that baby.  If I ever have a spare quarter million...she's mine!

Rod

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

I bought a 1960 Buick LeSabre that had an enclosed driveshaft. I never knew why they did that although I considered it was an over-kill protection for the U joints. I never thought that this would be for a torque application!

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

The u-joint in my 1953 GMC lives in a stamped ball shaped housing.  The U-joint uses bushings, no needles, and is not restrined axially, probably to tolerate misalignment between ball housing and shaft centerlines.  The rear leaf springs are curious flimsy things, which I figured was because they had no obligation to control differential attitude.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

The Porsche 944 used this system along with IRS.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

We still use closed drive shafts today in open wheel sprint race cars.
They are about 3 feet long.
The torque tube is bolted to the quick change housing.
At the motor, there is no transmission.  The crank has a ring flange bolted to the crank and the U joint bolts to that.
The end of the torque tube has a slip joint with a ball on it's end.  At the motor, there is a plate that has  a matching matchined joint that holds the tube ball in place with a ring.   This assembly is a precision lubed moving fit.
There is alo a 'yoke' style hook up that leaves some parts open.
The GM and Ford cars had torque tubes at last to 1948 and some beyond.  They have the same ball type slip joints at the trans end.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

To OP800

Do you know of locations of pictures/drawings/suppliers of these sprintcar drive systems - especially ring flange to crank connection. Thanks

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

I don't have my Winters catalog handy but they make the torque tubes, ball mounts and market crank flanges for mostly Chevrolet engines and some other applications.
We run FORD so there is not much available to us at the engine end of things so we have our parts manchined so we can hook up the drive shaft and torque tube.
The bell housing in a sprint car is quite flat for the car we run so had to have it CNCed from scratch to fit and use the standard torque tube ball mount.
The drive shafts can be cut to lenght as well as made from steel or even Titainum.
Here are basic mfgers of these part that are marketed to speed shops.
Winters,  Richmond, Franklin and there may be others.
Search the web for speed shops that handle these companies.
I know Winters has a catalog that would give you nearly all you need to get started.
These companies make rear assemblies for a wide range of cars from Midgets to street cars, in alum and mag metals.

RE: OLD CAR CLOSED DRIVESHAFTS

The right photo of the yoke and flange is what we run on the sprinter to fit a Ford crank.

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