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Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely
4

Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Well written, but I'm afraid some of the readers will assume there are better technologies out there.  All the emerging tech (Hybrid, Electric, etc) have obstacles; my opinion is that Hydrogen has the fewest and easiest to overcome.

I don't believe you will ever be able to "refuel" an electric car fast enough for the (American) driver, and Hybrids are a patch, interim, fix.

I still believe hydrogen is the future, but I'm likely to be refuted here.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

That was indeed a good article. I always thought that hydogen is a bit too much for us.

From the article : "Using dirty energy to make clean energy doesn't solve the pollution problem-it just moves it around."

I totally agree, you can not just move the problem around. From the article, it would seem like wind power or nuclear power would be the way to go if we proceed on with hydrogen. However, the amount of raw material needed in nuclear power would be much more than production, but I believe that that can be solved with time.

Wind power, now that would seem like the best choice. If I was doing anything regarding hydrogen, I would probably go with wind power as well. The only problem is that wind power takes up too much space for the amount of energy it produces. The other problem is that the more power we would need to generate with wind power, the less places the wind turbines can be located. There are a lot of windy places in this world, but I do not believe that there will be enough to power all the energy required to produce hydrogen.

Although, I am very interested to see where hydrogen goes.

rnip

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Nice article.  I particularly like the comments involving infrastructure and delivery.  Hydrogen is not easy to handle and how would you "idiot proof" it for the general populace.  In my view, a hydrogen economy (more particularly a couple of it's isotopes) would be viable if/when sustained, controlled fusion reactions are realized.  

Regards,

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

When you think about the wind to transportation, the steps to transform wind to wheel, you have to wonder about the losses along the way. Wind to rotation to electricity (1) to transmission to hydrogen to transportation to storage to filling to on board storage to electricity (2) to rotation finally. Maybe we will some land yachts on the highways.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Once you are satisfying 100% of your STATIONARY electricity needs by means of renewables, (near) zero-emissions fossil fuels or nuclear etc., then possibly you might begin to think of using hydrogen to power vehicles.  But until then, using hydrogen for transportation is just plain stupid.  Hydrogen offers very little to less than zero energy efficiency benefit relative to alternatives with much lower lifecycle energy costs- if the source of energy is fossil fuels in the first place.

It would make far more sense to first eliminate fossil fuel use for stationary applications.  Conserve the fossil fuels for transporation applications where their enormous energy content per unit volume, ease of distribution etc. is most useful.  Rationalize transportation by taxing fossil fuels and putting the money into better modes of transport:  electric trains that can run on the renewable grid, rather than six seater 2-tonne vehicles each carrying one person.  Once we've done these things, we need not worry so much about the remaining true transportation and portable power uses for fossil fuels- their energy requirements and fossil fuel emissions will be a drop in the bucket.

The article was fine- better journalism than I'm used to on the subject.  But it didn't mention yet another key problem with PEM fuelcells:  their use of platinum.  Use less platinum and they become more prone to premature failure/shortened lifespan.  The amount of platinum required for robust operation not only renders fuelcells enormously expensive, but the mineable quantities of platinum we have access to in the earth's crust will be gone before we manage to replace our existing fleet of vehicles, much less all those we'll need in future.  And before you say, "no problem, we'll just recycle it", take into account that we recycle less than 20% of the platinum currently used in IC engine catalytic converters- no reason to expect we'll increase that to 99+% merely because we're building fuelcell vehicles.  And remember that platinum is expensive because it's rare:  an excellent platinum ore is less than 1 part per million platinum- that's over 1000 tonnes of ore mined, processed and turned into tailings to produce 1 kg of finished metal.  That too costs energy- right now, 100% of which is coming from fossil fuels!

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I knew that Hydrogen is only a storage medium, but didn't realize that making it easily transportable required refrigeration or compression which requires a lot more energy.   So not only do you have to provide the energy to be stored, you have to make up for the huge inefficiencies inherent in this type of energy storage.  So whatever energy supply problems we have now would be compounded by storing energy in an inefficient intermediate form.  And we'll have to spend a ton of money on development and infrastructure for that privelege of becoming less efficient.

But... what is the alternative?

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

The alternative is to use less:  and use it where we need it rather than where we merely want it!

Sorry, but there's no technological "fix" to this one.  There's only a sociological/public policy/values "fix"- minimize the amount of energy you're wasting, and invest in means of energy production that minimize unpleasant effects on future generations.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

That's not the only alternative.  We could just keep on doing what we're doing until that hypothetical day in the future when we physically can't anymore.  

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Here is a couple of links on the subject:

This one takes no postion, pro or con, just explores the consequences

http://www.tbp.org/TBPMain/BentBulletin/BENTFeatures/Sp04Uhrig.pdf

This one really crunches the numbers

http://planetforlife.com/pdffiles/h2report.pdf

If you think the oil economy is expensive, you're really not going to like the hydrogen economy.

Regards,

Mike

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Is there any middle ground.

Maybe using hydrogen generated from spare renewable/clean energy (if that ever happens) to some how enrich/increase/dilute/stretch other fuel sources?

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
Sure, a mixture of solutions is the most likely way forward.

I'd guess that nukes+electric cars where appropriate+some efficiency improvements in electricity usage+say some wind power, would do little harm and might do some good.

For the USA in particular I'd like to see a new category of vehicle legislation introduced - a light efficient vehicle. These would not meet the airbag rules, or rollover, or crash. They would have crush cells (designed to a standard), and decent seatbelts.

  

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I don't get it.  I realize nobody wants to give up anything.  But who wants to give up safety?

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

You're not necessarily giving up safety, just achieving it in a different way surely.  For instance, while the public would probably never accept it 5 point seatbelts might obviate the need for air bags.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I'll take the five point.

Pete, if we ALL drove the small cars it wouldn't be a problem.  When a small car meets soccer mom oversized SUV, bad things happen.  We will never all drive small cars.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Five point, not for me, I'll take, and always raced with 6.  A single sub-belt can hurt you in places you really don't want in a shunt (assuming you are male).  In any case, I tend to agree with moltenmetal and Greg.  Addressing stationary sources and using a mix of technologies would seem a preferred route.  The "rallying cry" should not be simply about developing a hydrogen economy, but should be about readily renewable sources and increasing the efficiency of products using energy.

Regards,

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Back to the original topic...

What makes hydrogen any better than an as yet undiscovered better battery for storing electrical energy created elsewhere?  As energy storage media go it has many drawbacks, as discussed in that article.  Maybe it's because we're all assuming that fuel cells will be the future and they require hydrogen?

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Quote (SomptingGuy):

What makes hydrogen any better than an as yet undiscovered better battery for storing electrical energy created elsewhere?
The fact that it is discovered, I guess.  I'll likely change my tune when a high energh density, rapidly recharged battery is discovered.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
Well, fuel cells are a bust in my opinion, but that is a separate issue.

electricpete, people already sacrifice safety when they buy an SUV. A full size car is significantly safer than an SUV, because it is less likely to get in an accident in the first place, and the safety standards it is designed to are much higher. Since it weighs more than most other cars, it also wins on the conservation of momentum front.

They also sacrifice safety when they buy a small car, or a motorbike, as SG says.

So, one way or another people do trade safety against other attributes of the car. My proposal merely allows us to explore genuinely efficient 1 or 2 seaters, which are not really possible under the current regs.

The problem is that at the moment there is virtually nothing tending to reduce the weight of the average car in the fleet. Almost without exception each new model is heavier than the preceeding one, even if it is faster and has better fuel consumption.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

As long as there will be big monopolies (in US) like the petrol/gas/fuel and car manufacturing industries, the likelihood of new technologies to emerge on a large scale and cost effective is minimal to zero.

No industry is likely to canabalize on there main stream of revenues without goverment intervention.


" to be or not to be "

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

opsops:  doubt that highly.  The problem here isn't that a monopoly is suppressing the great technological fix to maintain itself- it's that there is NO technological fix to the problem.  This is a real-world problem, and all solutions are merely trade-offs of real advantages AND disadvantages.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Quote:

there is NO technological fix to the problem

I disagree.  We are simply using one form of stored solar energy (oil/gas) at a faster rate than it can be renewed.  That gives three broad categories of options:

1) Use solar energy directly (solar cells, check out Lomborg's calcs).

2) Use a form of storage that's quicker to renew (bio-fuel).

3) Mimic how the Sun turns mass into energy.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

SomptingGuy,

Your recommendations are either not practical with current technology or they are currently under development.  I have been told by a fellow that I trust that solar and wind are not capable of supplying the amount of power we need.  Bio fuel sounds like Ethanol and other stuff currently under development.  Of course, fusion is also under development.  Twenty plus years ago, a physics major told me that we were extremely close to getting fusion in a practical production form.  Five years ago I read something claiming that a major hurdle had been overcome in fusion power.  Maybe we are just around the corner.

Regarding the conspiracy claims that the auto and oil industries are keeping other technologies from getting developed, I just can't buy that.  Engineers as a class are always working to make improvements.  If someone finds a real technology, he is going to work on it like a dog in a flower bed, digging and digging and digging.  Folks say, "Well they just buy the guy out and shut him up."  If one guy can find it, another guy can too.  You just can't keep real promising technologies from getting to the marketplace.  Heck, some guy made a fortune on Post-It Notes.  Think what would happen if a real alternative to the Petrol Internal Combustion Engine were developed?

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

==> I have been told by a fellow that I trust that solar and wind are not capable of supplying the amount of power we need.

That may be true given the current state of technology, but thankfully, technology is not static.  The day may come when we figure how to harness a sufficient amount of the sun's energy to fulfill our needs.

==> it's that there is NO technological fix to the problem.  This is a real-world problem, and all solutions are merely trade-offs of real advantages AND disadvantages.
The depends entirely on what you consider the problem(s), and how you define that.

With respect to energy, there is supply and demand and whenever demand exceeds supply there is a problem.  To solve that problem, you have to look at the underlycauses.  Is the basic cause problem excessive demand, or insufficient supply?  If you consider the problem to be excessive demand, then it is because our needs are too great, our desires to great, or a overall lack of efficiency?  If you consider it an insufficient supply problem, then the question is based in a lack of material, or a lacking of technology to efficiently use the material?

To me, the best answer is 'all of the above'.

There is no one single answer because it's not one single problem.  There are several problems and each will require a different types of solution, and technology is most definitely part of the overall equation, as are personal attitudes and behaviors, but but no means, is either all of the equation.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I wonder if we have thought through the possible impact of wind power. We didn't understand the climate effects of IC engine vehicles, and now it seems to have caused a climate problem. I wonder if millions of wind turbines taking energy out of the atmosphere or for that matter air seperation plants taking hydrogen out of the atmosphere would have any impact on climate as well? How about plants that split hydrogen out of water, rejecting the O2 to the atmosphere? What happens if the O2 concentration gets too high?

Just some idle thoughts.....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

The hydrogen economy myth was debunked in a great article by Prof Frank Kreith , see "Fallacies of a hydrogen economy", ASME J of energy res. tech. , Dec 2004 vol 126 pp 249-256. This article was also included in the ASME publication " Mechanical Engineering" about the same time.

My own opinion is: The increased use of coal gasification may lead to new commercial sources of hydrogen, but its current value as a feedstock for chemicals implies its initial market would be chemical refineries. If the gasification plants became so widespread that the hydrogen was actually available for uses as a transportation fuel, we would be consuming our coal reserves at a rate which would imply their complete depletion in less than a century.

A review of the Hydrogen system design standards issued by NASA provides a plethora of difficult engineering issues related to pipeline safety, storage, and  feeding to other consumers, but Kreith's main these ( based on thermodynamics and energy efficiency) is damning.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

What I meant to say is that there's no magical, "deius ex machina" single technological fix to the problem of what to do to find alternatives to fossil fuels and greenhouse gas emissions.  Hydrogen isn't it, nor are biofuels.  Fusion might be, one day, but I'll believe it after I've seen a plant work for a few years.  Until then I'm not holding my breath.  

There are real, practical solutions which we can implement using known technology, NOW, to deal with both increasing the supply of renewables AND reducing the overall energy demand requirements by reducing waste and eliminating frivolous uses.  But NONE of these solutions will be properly and widely implemented until we price fossil fuels, and the dumping of their combustion products, in a way which reflects their full and fair cost.  Aside from yet more talk, nothing will happen while the market works against us.

Hydrogen and fuelcells, corn ethanol etc. give politicians an "out" from doing the unpopular work that actually needs to be done.  While we hold out hope for a magic solution, we feel better about continuing to do what we're already comfortable doing- burning fossil fuels as fast as we can find them.  The myth of the yet-to-be invented or suppressed technological fix, or the salvation of "new technology", is useful to defer action and diffuse guilt.  It is not useful toward solving our actual energy problems.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

SMS, some good questions.

My own thoughts though on some of them.  

I don’t see the wind turbines being worse than the trees that once covered large areas of land before being cut down.  Certainly one average turbine probably has more effect than one average tree but I doubt the number of turbines will ever approach the number of trees there once were.    

As for releasing extra O2 from electrolysis, maybe this source will compensate for all the trees cut downsmile  Seriously though given that the hydrogen will re-combine with equivalent amounts of O2 when combusted (or whatever the equivalent term is for fuel cells) there shouldn’t be a long term net contribution to the atmosphere should there?

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

So from what I’ve seen before on the subject and the quick scan of the article the main target for hydrogen is to replace oil derivatives in powering vehicles.

One of the alternatives is electrical power from batteries.

One disadvantage of this is that the batteries typically take a while to recharge.

Why not have removable battery packs?

If you need a quick top up and don’t have time to leave the car over night you just pull into a ‘battery station’ and switch packs.

Obviously there’d need to be a standard for the packs so they are all inter changeable, there’d need to be a system for swapping the packs that didn’t require heavy lifting, and it would have an impact on vehicle design etc but it’s an idea right?

As for the re loading, I’m thinking maybe you just Pull your car over a pit which has a robot that reloads from underneath.  Sure there are alignment issues but if garbage trucks can do it with garbage cans it can be over come.

So, who’s gonna be the first to point out the obvious flaws in my plan.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
There aren't any obvious flaws with a plug-in battery pack. I'd make the battery packs smart, with on-board logging of current demand. You'd pay for the net electricity used, plus some allowance for wear and tear based on total current flow (not necessarily linear), plus a leasing cost, plus any penalties for abuse. If your next battery is duff, you tag it when you turn it in. Note that if you recharge it at home from a wind generator this WILL reduce your cost of running the car, but the battery owner still makes money.

Note that your car will be cheaper to run if you do not abuse the battery, so the manufacturer will fit some sort of max current limit, and might include some supercaps to provide higher power levels intermittently.

However, now your service station has got a stack of dead batteries. These either need to be recharged on site - big copper, or transported via truck to a central recharging facility. Let's just hope that the latter alternative does not use as much fuel as the electric car has saved. Quick sum, 40 tonnes of 60 Wh/kg batteries is 2.4 e6 Wh, that's the equivalent of 200 kg of fuel. Ow. That's the problem.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

You would need to charge the batteries at the charging station. I don't see the problem with the local power supply, its just like starting a factory. Also batteries would be charged overnight in situ at home so the charging station visit would just be for long trips. The next generation of hybrids will be chargeable I think. So all we have to do is solve the power generation problem. However that is the major problem.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

KENAT,

My point is really that we need to evaluate solutions from a broader perspective. Can hydrogen be used to run cars, sure. Does it solve the broader problem of climate change, in my opinion no it doesn't. It simply shifts the source of pollution, or changes its form.

Is wind the savior of the world, not likely. How about nuclear, looks good but has some obvious problems as well. But what are the non-obvious problems??

I really doubt that if in the 1950's to 1960's the science and engineering community had foreseen the effects of pollution on climate that things would have turned out the same, I expect our cars would have been cleaner sooner.

I also really doubt that the science and engineering community fully understands the effects of pollution on climate change. I don't advocate analysis paralysis, but we ought to be asking long-term impact questions of any technology that is intended for broad use, rather than assume it is benign. The assumption is that wind power is completely benign, is it really?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Re electric vehicles...

So when most vehicles are electric and can be charged from a mains outlet, how do governments charge huge taxes for vehicle use?  I've mentioned this before in eng-tips: it's easy to make "red diesel" for non-automotive use but how do you make "red electricity" for home use?  How can VOSA test my electricity if stopped?

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

We already have green electricity in Canada. It costs a bit more but you feel good using it. With modern metering methods it should not be a problem. Of course there will be those who wire around the meter just as there are today.

HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
SG, why should the gummint need to tax the electricity? I thought we were taxing gasoline as a way of reducing demand (officially). If you want to tax road users then there are plenty of alternatives.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Greg,

Odd question.  The "gummint" doesn't give a rat's ass where the cash comes from.  If their vote-chasing policy causes a net reduction in tax income, taxation will move elsewhere.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
Exactly, so why were you wondering about taxing the elctricity?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

GregLocock--

Becaue the government is less concerned about the environment than it is about taxes.  In an earlier post somewhere I alluded to the fact that the state of Oregon was contemplating a tax on miles driven, this being due to the lower revenenue from gasoline taxes as brought about by people buying more fuel-efficient cars. It was government intent that people buy the fuel efficient cars, but the unintended consequences of that action was lower revenue from fuel taxes. So now, we find that hte governement REALLY wants the taxes, so they'll try to tax mileage.

If they can figure out how to tax electricity used for automobiles, I'm sure that some smart politician will try to do it.

old field guy

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Greg & others,

I was thinking onsite re-charging (maybe a wind turbine out back and solar panels on the roof smile).  With carefull stock management you might even be able to do most of the charging at low demand times.

I was also thinking cars would already come with the battery pack and you'd just be swapping them, kind of like a BBQ propane tank, so assumed the cost the station originally purchasing the batteries, running the station etc would be amortized across the electrical energy.

I guess the battery packs themselves could be taxed, justified due to the energy and some of the chemicals most likely needed to make them.

Maybe I'll start a thread with one of my other crazy ideas.

sms, I wasn't knocking the idea of asking questions and looking at other options before we get to far, I was just putting my thoughts on a couple of the questions you posted.  For turbines one factor is any possible affect on wild life, especially the flying kind.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

If y'all think the solution is so obvious that we just need some good batteries, a few solar panels at work and a wind turbine out back, then get some venture capitol together and make some millions.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

Kind of my point.  I figured I'd probably missed something from a technical point of view which would mean it wasn't an obvious solution.  

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I have followed this problem off and on for the past several years.  As best I can tell the logic goes like this.

1) We need to get off our dependence on foreign energy.

2) Those guys at NASA have this cool energy source that doesn't produce any polution, just a little water that drips out of the tailpipe.

3) We need to make our cars run on this cool NASA stuff.  The U S automakers are up to something.  Yea, they're in bed with Big Oil keeping us buying their "inferior" <-[explicative deleted]  cars that make us choke on smog just so they can earn millions off us.

It is all B/S.

We should move toward energy independence for the international political reasons everyone is aware.

NASA does have an interesting way of storing power for use in outer space.

But that's it!  What NASA does for the space program in this regard is not a practical technology for ground transportation.  I am dismayed that engineers get all hot and bothered about the possibilities when a couple quick studies would reveal this technology is not something that is going to yield fruit.  If it were that simple somebody would have done it already.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

The US government just committed big bucks in research toward hydrogen cycle technology, didn't they?

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

And I fear it is all political.  I doubt the politicians and the press understand the technical hurdles and so it is obvious to them we just need to throw enough money at it before it becomes reality.  Next, they can fund the elimination of gravity so we don't suffer all those damn friction losses.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

You know you've got problems when all but one other member of staff in your department buy into the water powered car hype.

For some reason I tried to point out little things like it was really hydrogen powered and you were just converting energy, conservation of energy etc but I'm sure I didn't convince at least one of them.

Still, made me feel intellectually superior for a whilewinky smile

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

I can see a future where electricity is generated in poor countries using all manner of dirty and/or dangerous methods and used to produce hydrogen for the rich countries to run their "environmentally friendly" economies on.  It could happen.

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely




Some statements about Hydrogen economy:

“said BMW spokesman, Wieland Bruch. “We see hybrid technology as an intermediate step to the hydrogen environment."

“The cheapest current method for producing hydrogen is not electrolysis of water, but rather to use a reaction involving oxygen and methane. Unfortunately, the energy in the hydrogen produced by thus process is less than the energy contained in the methane. The overall process: converting natural gas to hydrogen and then using that hydrogen in a fuel cell to generate electrical power would therefore not only result in an overall loss of energy, but it would also produce more carbon dioxide byproduct. This is true even though the fuel cell is 100% efficient!
There are additional troubles with a hydrogen economy. The storage and transport of hydrogen is a serious, unresolved problem. Hydrogen gas has a very low density. A tank of hydrogen, necessarily under pressure, possesses much less energy that an equivalent volume of natural gas or especially of liquid hydrocarbon (gasoline or diesel fuel). Moreover, hydrogen gas destroys welds in natural gas pipelines so that is would be difficult to ship hydrogen through these existing pipelines. There seem to be no viable methods to make hydrogen more dense except to compress it or to cool it to a liquid at very low temperatures. Both techniques are expensive.”

“Before hydrogen fuel cells are used for energy, there are still a few puzzles left to solve. We need to make enough hydrogen to power vehicles, homes and businesses. We also need ways to store and distribute it widely. And we need to bring down the prices of fuel cells, so that enough people will be able to buy them.
Making the change from fossil fuels to hydrogen fuel cannot happen overnight. It will take time to solve the puzzles and to make changes in the fuel infrastructure. Infrastructure means all of the structures that allow fuel to be delivered where it is needed, such as refineries, pipelines, pumps and delivery trucks. How will hydrogen fuel be delivered to buildings for energy? How will cars and trucks be filled with hydrogen fuel? One answer may lie in the infrastructure that already exists to deliver natural gas to homes and businesses, and today’s network of gasoline stations. With some changes, this infrastructure can be adapted for hydrogen fuel.”

“Mr. Rifkin delivered the closing keynote presentation at the World Hydrogen Energy Conference in Lyon, France on June 16, 2006. Mr. Rifkin said that the introduction of the fuel cell and a new hydrogen energy regime in the coming decades would have as powerful an impact on the global economy in the 21st century as the introduction of the coal fired steam engine of the 19th century and the oil powered internal combustion engine in the 20th century. Mr. Rifkin urged delegates to make the vision of a hydrogen economy and third industrial revolution a reality by 2030.”

atom

RE: Hydrogen Economy? Not very likely

(OP)
"“Before hydrogen fuel cells are used for energy, there are still a few puzzles left to solve. We need to make enough hydrogen to power vehicles, homes and businesses. We also need ways to store and distribute it widely. And we need to bring down the prices of fuel cells, so that enough people will be able to buy them."

Yes. Apart from the durability of the fuel cells, I think that covers all the main reasons why hydrogen is a hopeless joke so far as reducing the use of hydrocarbons, and/or climate change.

We can't make the hydrogen, store it, move it, or use it efficiently. But apart from that, yes we're close to solving all the problems.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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