×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

What should i do?
5

What should i do?

What should i do?

(OP)
ok, so i work for a pump manufacturer that designs and builds large pump. currently im their draftsman. up until now all has been good there but lately they've been hounding me to find a way to catch more mistakes.

they've really, flat out, just not implemented anything that would remotely resemble a system in which my work is checked. what should i do?

today i was told that some job got botched because of something that should have been caught by someone and it's landed squarely on my shoulders.

what system do you guys use check your work and how does it function?

RE: What should i do?

2
Well, I'd go so far as to say that you can never check your work as well as someone else could check it.  The checker really needs to be somebody else, but if you have to check your own work, you need to get away from it for a while (several days would be good) between the time you did it and the time you try to do the checking so that you have to spend a bit of time familiarizing yourself with what it was you were supposed to have done and how that relates to what you actually did.

RE: What should i do?

No ISO 9001 ?
No quality scheme that clients can audit?
No quality department?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: What should i do?

Make new title blocks that require signatures in blocks marked "Checked by" and "Approved by".

I worked for a company where the enginering manager said we should simply not mistakes on drawings because "we are all adults and should know how to make drawings."  Not possible.  It takes at least two minds and three eyes to properly check a drawing.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: What should i do?

Yup, what you've got is a bunch of nincompoops running the company.  The direction you're getting is nothing short of a management cop-out.

"Back in the old days" of pencil & paper design, there was a hierarchy:  engineer, draftsman, checker.  There were probably some "leads" scattered in between.  But with the advent of CAD, the role of checker has been lost.

It's simply bad to have to check your own work.  But it's like the other guys said:  force a manager to sign off on the drawing and assume responsibility, or the self-checking process adds a few days to every project.  If a calm, analytical cost justification is presented to those clowns running your company, and the volume or value of work is sufficient, then perhaps you can convince them to pony up and hire a dedicated checker.

TygerDawg

RE: What should i do?

Has anyone tried 'buddy checking' ?

Good excuse for a pay rise if nothing else.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: What should i do?

I worked at places where we did a lot of "buddy checking", since there were no checkers.  This was considered a normal part of the process, and expected from the managers.

Again, it is vital to consider how "human factors" affect our work.  It is simply human nature to not see mistakes that we have stared at for too long.

We are not machines.  Our work is the product of our minds; we only assisted by our tools.

RE: What should i do?

At a minimum, I would (hope) that the designer/engineer who created the item/assembly would review and sign off on it.  For us, it is (if the procedure is fully followed), Design Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, Systems Engineer or Program Manager.  Engineering changes to drawings go a similar route for approval but the revised drawing itself is only signed off by the ECO originator (usually Manufacturing Engineer).

Regards,

RE: What should i do?

Everything done in my department is checked by someone else in the department (which can be anyone in the department from new-taking-time-out-from-college student to been-doing-it-so-long-I-checked-Noah's-design-for-the-ark senior engineer). Then it gets approved by a senior engineer / department manager (which can't be the same senior who checked it). The approver usually looks at who checks it and he trusts them, he'll sign it without looking too hard and if he thinks the checker is a bit wet behind the ears and needs a bit more experience he'll check it himself before approving it.

That way, when things go wrong, there's at least 3 people to blame!

RE: What should i do?

2
Print it out, go through and check every last detail- highlight it as it's checked.

Generally, it's easier to spot something that's wrong than it is to spot something that you forgot to put in, in the first place.

If you check your own work, try to do things differently from how you did them in the first place.  Dimensions that were just measured in autoCAD, derive geometrically.  Check analytical integrations numerically.

RE: What should i do?

evilchickenking,
Any of my clients that do any serious design work have a documented system in place for independent review/checking of drawings and calculations.  It would be beneficial to everyone in your organization, especially your customers, to develop one.
Regards,
RLS

RE: What should i do?

Our system for aerospace engineering is formalized to include multiple checks, but things inevitably get caught on the floor anyhow.  
We have:
designer do a self check (check BOM and concept),
lead do a layout check (conceptual check),
the checker for a drafting check (readability, standards followed),
the appropriate specialized engineer(s) for stress, mechanical, and/or electrical check (this is for compliance to appropriate regulations and eventual certification)
and then possibly also on to the production lead or manufacturing engineer, since they are downstream customers.

The drawing is then routed a second time, after pick-ups, to collect check, cert/stress, and finally lead signatures.  Often times several of the checks will occur simultaneously for the simpler drawings, which can expedite the process but can also confuse things when it comes time for signoff since so many changes may be incorporated simultaneously.

On the flip side, I used to work as a research engineer at a lab.  No drafters, checkers, or specialized engineers.  I took it upon myself to do a self check (never the same day I finished the drawing) and circulate check copies (clearly marked as such) to my supervisor and the appropriate downstream customers (typically the machinist, mechanic, and/or electrician).  Though they didn't always have the time or desire to do a full check, that accomplished two things.  First nobody could ever say they didn't get a chance to provide input or pick-ups; second, although the ultimate responsibility for mistakes was mine, it was much harder to point the finger at me when the inevitable mistake was found.  It also opened the door to get feedback from all involved, which some of the production guys really appreciated.  I learned a lot from them and they gained an appreciation for what I brought to a project.





RE: What should i do?

Many good suggestions here; I think davidbeach gave the best, most realistic solution for your situation (which is far from ideal).  I also think that it is important that there is an "approved" sign off, as well as other sign offs on the drawing, and that they are recognized for what they are.  This can only help spread the responsibility.  It is also a very good idea to get feedback from your customers before release.

RE: What should i do?

I feel your pain. I am in a similar position, being a drafter that produces drawings for others with little to no checking of my work.

There are a  couple of things that I do to help limit the number of mistakes. One, find someone else to at least look at the drawings before you submit them. Don't wait for someone else to implement a system of checking, find someone else to look at it, and try not to let it be the same person that gave you the assignment. Often times the engineer doesn't see the mistakes either because they are seeing their design, not your drawing. Second, if you are drawing in a 3d program like solidworks or inventor, take your finished print and try to redraw it in 2d based on the dims on your drawing. This can be tedious and time consuming but it helps me to catch my mistakes. It also helps you justify your dimensioning scheme. If you can't redraw the part without trouble you need to rethink your dimensions, and it also helps you find things you missed.

David

RE: What should i do?

These threads talk about drawing check and my posts on the dates below give some of my thoughts.

thread1103-151604 (1 Aug) & thread1103-151962 (June 12th)

My personal preference is dedicated drawing checker for primary check with technical approval from relevant engineer (stress etc) and preferably final sign off from some kind of manager (technical not HR or someone).

Doesn’t sound like this is necessarily an option at your place.  Definitely try and get at least a second sign off on the drawing.  If you must rely on only self check then like others have said, print it out and come back to it a few days later, but I wouldn’t be happy with this.

Others who’ve read my posts on checking will know I can go on for ages but I’ll leave it there for now!

RE: What should i do?

There should be a drawing checker. The drawings should have been checked by the design engineer, production engineer, and quality. It should never be assumed a drafter checked the design.
Also, it is up to the drafter to do a spell check. (your first post)

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

RE: What should i do?

(OP)
thanks guys. those are great tips.

so far I've proposed that:
1.) a comprehensive book filled with data that pertains any position you happen to have at the company,
2.) we implement iso 9001 standards.

i'm fairly sure this company can do it, but i'm not sure they will go all the way. when i told them about the idea they asked "who was going to do it?"

are there companies that specialize in setting up a quality assurance system?

RE: What should i do?

Yes, can't name any of the top of my head but there are consultants that help with this stuff.  I think possibly some of the auditing companies may even help, we used Lloyds at my last place in the UK.

To solve your immediate problem you don’t need full ISO 9001.  You just need to set up a checking process, document it in a procedure and have a policy that all designs/drawings go through it.





RE: What should i do?

This is always a problem and basically boils down to the fact that humans make mistakes.

The first thing I would say is do not assume that ISO 9001 will solve your problem, if your manual states all drawings will be checked by the designer then you are back to square one. All 9001 does is check that systems are in place and implemented, a well-written and implemented internal system will work better than a badly written and implemented external one.

It is very easy to say that many different people and departments should check any work and whilst this is true and certainly the best method it is not always practical depending on the value of the product. It is very easy for a company to go broke trying to produce the perfect washer.

Have you been making more mistakes than “normal” lately? There could be a perfectly good reason for this, overworked, there may be a new baby in the house and you have not had good nights sleep in weeks, that kind of thing. A good boss will discuss these types of thing.

Whilst no one likes other peoples mistakes and less so our own they do happen, it would be my advice to try and get people around the table to come up with a working solution, as well as reducing errors you may also increase production with input from different departments.

Good luck.

RE: What should i do?

On checking drafting and engineering details, the approach required will need to vary according to the circumstances.  If you you're spending a $1000 worth of drafting time to design a $1,000,000 product, it makes a lot more sense to invest another $1,000 in checking it.  If you're spending $20 worth of drafting time drawing up a $50 part, it doesn't make so much sense.  If the drawing(s) will be used repeatedly or distributed widely, it makes a lot more sense to make sure that every last detail is correct.

Don't just assume that the same standards of care used on the space shuttle should be applied to miscellaneous steel fabrication.

RE: What should i do?

JStephen,
I see what you are saying, but I disagree. I think all parts, no matter quantity or price, should have the drawings checked. A system should be set up to have all documentation checked and have configuration control.
You never know if marketing is going to turn that $50 part into a $1000 part, change the qty from 2 to 5000, or change it from a commercial standard part into a military part.
Set up a document system that works to insure consistent quality of the parts.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

RE: What should i do?

On the contrary, Chris, a lot of us DO know that the quantity isn't going to change from 2 to 5000, and that it isn't going to go from commerical standard part (or actually, commercial custom part) to a military part- you're assuming we all work in the same industry, and that isn't the case.

RE: What should i do?

If you are lucky to know, that's great. Then it will work for you.
The last 3 companies I worked for, engineering does not know. The purchasing and marketing depts take over from there. We just design and document the parts, then release into the system. It's in productions hands after that, unless there is a design problem.
But, every doc is checked through a strict configuration system and all parts are treated the same, this way all drawings are consistent.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

RE: What should i do?

If drawing check must be rationed then Jstephan way is one approach.

Another, perhaps slightly better way, is to have different levels of check.

e.g. High cost impact parts get a very thorough check, Low cost impact parts get a lower level of check.

However, my preference is still for 100% full checking but it's not always possible to convince management of this.

Maybe the problem is that checking usually doesn't directly make money.  However, checking can save vast sums of money by identifying problems up front before parts are made or attempted to be made.  However, because these amounts are very difficult to quantify it’s difficult to put a number on it to convince management.

Ajack is right about ISO 9001, all it does is make sure you have a documented process.  Doesn’t guarantee that process is good or even adequate.

Also while getting QA and production input is always good I wouldn’t get hung up on making sure they are a required signature on all drawings.

Something that might help if you must do self check is prepare yourself a ‘checker check list’ for you to go through.

BTW, my company still hasn’t formally implemented checking.  Those in my group do it and we try and persuade others to take advantage of our checker but it’s still pretty much hit & miss.  Last I heard our ‘checking procedure’ document was held up because people couldn’t decide on the document format!

RE: What should i do?

One way to quantify it would be to research existing change orders and the cost of implementation and correction of existing parts per those change orders.

RE: What should i do?

Well, it's friday afternoon and it has been a long week.  

I have been following this thread since it was posted.  Unfortunately, I have no input that can be considered useful in any sense, but I love the handle "evilchickenking".

Cheers

RE: What should i do?

I have a situation like yours in my company, since I am working in a small company I am preparing my own drawings and check them myself. My suggest is that make a checklist for yourself . the most terrible thing that I myself afraid of when prepare a drawing is “dimensioning in CAD” and “Bill of materials” CAD packages can easily fool one when dimensioning fast. Before dimensioning a part ask yourself if it makes scenes and “how this will be measured? “. Here is a good checklist which you can print and use :  
http://www.quartic.co.nz/4_drawing_guidelines.html

RE: What should i do?

  That checklist may be a good start, but leaves a little to be desired (at least if you are trying to conform to Y14.5 or similar standards).
  I do have a problem with their take on view presentation - "We have to see the component in every view (top, bottom, sides and ends)."
A good, concise drawing only shows the views necessary to define the part and extraneous views just take up space.  Iso views may be an exception, as they do add to the understanding of the part.
But I wander from the op...

RE: What should i do?

(OP)
I've been trying to figure out exactly what iso 9001 or y14.5 are but haven't been able to track much down on whats in either spec. is there any place that provides such details without purchasing a book on the matter? i have an idea of what they are but not exactly certain.

can someone explain a good way to go about setting up iso 9001? having a hard time getting the management to buy into the fact that we need it.

also if they don't opt to go for some for of standardization, should i be nervous about staying in the company?

RE: What should i do?

I don't think you will find them for free, but I also don't think Y14.5 covers your industry.  There are some national cad standards which do that have been mentioned on this site.  Try a search in the drafting standards thread.  Good luck!

RE: What should i do?

If you can't get management to even rent a checker, any attempt at implementing ISO9001 is a >>guaranteed<< disaster.  You can't homebrew it, and you certainly can't homebrew it alone, and if you can't even scare up the money to buy a book about it, you just flat shouldn't be talking about it on company premises.  You don't want your name associated with it; it can easily eat up more money than you will make in your lifetime, and/or put the company out of business, and it won't solve your problem anyway.

Similarly, 14.5 is not a magic bullet, and even if it were, it's not the particular magic bullet you need.

If you can't find some way to get more sets of eyeballs on the design documents before chips are made, you are doomed.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What should i do?

(OP)
if after a while of trying the company is resistant to having a checking system, should i consider leaving the company for one that does use specs and is willing do have checkers?

RE: What should i do?

Either that, or be prepared to suffer continued abuse for stuff that "should have been caught".

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What should i do?

You shouldn't have to figure out ISO, or any other standard,  you've got better things to do with your time and skills.

You don't have to find the justification, just look up a few companies that specialise and get them to send you some info.

These guys should do there own selling and will do a better job than you. Let them.

So I suggest all you need to do is get a couple of different companies to send in information and send it through to the boss and ask which company he wants you to get to come in to give their pitch. All this will cost is some time.

If this wasn't what he wanted you to do this is a good time for him to tell you how he wants you to solve the problem.... but if he knew that, he'd have told you in the first place; instead they have been "hounding you" to find a solution.
So you sending him a couple of companies for him to choose from "assumes" that this is what he wanted and his choice isn't "how" or "if" but "who".

It won't cost anything for the sales pitch and may help clarify the whole problem to you and your management.

Which ever company gets to make a pitch, be sure to brief them on the problems you are having so they can set up the presentation to hit some "nerve points".

Whatever happens now, you did your bit.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: What should i do?

Evilchickenking,

Where are you located? If you are in the U.S. and you did your schooling here, you should have some idea of what is part of the ASME Y14.5M-1994 standard. That SHOULD have been what you were taught from, more or less. ISO 9001 is more of an organization issue, it requires accountablility for things like drawing revisions but it isn't a drawing standard. There is an ISO drawing standard but it isn't as well used in the U.S. and if you are working for a company that does military and gov't drawings there are DOD standards.

Like Mike said, having or knowing the drafting standards is not a magic bullet. You would need to get others at your company to use it as well for it to help and even then it wont help your problem with checking drawings.

Do what you can to ensure that you have caught everything you can before you submit a drawing, even if that means redrawing it from your print. Next, ask someone to review your work before you submit it (get them to sign it if you can). Next, bring your concerns to your supervisor and try to get them involved in implementing a checking system (whether it is peer-checking, or a dedicated checker). If you can't make any headway on any of these things and you don't like getting blamed for mistakes, you should look for another job. If you do, ask in the interview about the company drafting standards and about the checking and drawing review process.  

RE: What should i do?

evil,

I suspect a decision like 'we should implement iso 9001' is well above your pay scale.  As others note 9001 doesn't really directly apply to drawings or drawing checking so will be little or no help with your current dilema.  By all means suggest it to management but I wouldn't die in the ditch over it.  Also unless your customers are asking for it as a condition of doing business you probably don't 'need' 9001.  It can also be very expensive.

Introducing a checking/document approval process on the other hand will help and while probably not your ultimate decision to make is in your 'sphere of influence'.  Also it need not be that expensive.

Of course as part of this you need to give some definition of what to check to.  The relevant government/industry spec (Possibly ASME Y14.5 for the US, maybe another if diffent location or industry) should probably be the foundation of this.  You may then want to emphasize/clarify certain industry or company specific points.

The checking procedure can be entirely internal to your company.

RE: What should i do?

(OP)
Im located in northern california, and i do have an idea of what the y14.5 spec is, but as far as checking goes, they didn't really teach us how to get plans checked in an organization. so im sure that my plans are standard if not very close to standard. just hoping there might be a spec i can adapt to the whole checking process.

currently my some of my plans do get an approved stamp that is signed, but that doesn't appear to be enough. so im a little angry that they would bring things back to me after it had been approved. i guess i should push them to have an engineer stamp the plans instead of the manager.

RE: What should i do?

I believe some Mil Stds may give some info, or at least state the requirement, but I'm not sure they'd cover everything you're talking about.

As above you could add a checked by and approved by box to your drawings.  You could then create a company standard/procedure that says all drawings must be checked (by someone who knows how to draw) and approved (usually by the cognizant engineer or equivalent) before release.  You'd have to get management to sign off on that procedure and enforce it's implementation.

As regards what to check to hopefully the various specs stated above give you a start.  Start doing some google searches on them, you probably wont get a full copy but will maybe get a better flavour.

When you say "they didn't really teach us how to get plans checked in an organization" what type of education are you referring too?

RE: What should i do?

(OP)
i was referring to all of the college drafting courses that i've taken. most of this stuff either wasn't covered very well, or wasn't mentioned. as far as a good system of checking goes, or how one would operate. maybe there's a specific one that includes it. i guess i'll have to look into that.

RE: What should i do?

Thats what I thought.

I sure wasn't taught anything like it at Uni but then my drawing course consisted of maybe 1/2 dozen labs using autosketch!

I learnt everything I know about drawing systems, configuration control etc in the work place.  I suspect this is the same for most people although I could be wrong.  If you'd taken any configuration control classes it might have touched on it but no guarantees since drawing check isn't really a config control function.

I really feel that to solve your immediate problem you just need to try and introduce a real simple check procedure/policy as a few above explain.  It needn't be too complex or exhaustive to begin with but can evolve over time as need be.  This may not be as easy as I've made it sound since management buy in is required but it is probably the simplest option.

RE: What should i do?

Develop a check list.  Will solve most of the problems.

HVAC68

RE: What should i do?

In College my drafting instructors would not accept a drawing unless it had been signed by two other students. Your grade for any given assignment was then contingent on how well the students, whose drawings you approved, did as well as your own drawing. If you missed a glaringly obvious mistake, your "checkers" lost points. Not only did this help prevent mistakes in our own assignments but it made us do better work because we had to find the problems in other's work, and we didn't want to look like a fool for criticizing someone else's mistake while we had made the same one.

It surprizes me that this wouldn't be a common practice at other schools, but I suppose most of you were engineering students and were not required to take too many "drafting" courses. Maybe this should start being required for an engineering degree if the engineers are going to do all the drawings themselves...

RE: What should i do?

Aardvarkdw -

I like it.  I very much fall into your category of engineering students, like I said before about 1/2 dozen labs.

I've learnt on the job and feedback from checkers was one of my main learning tools.

RE: What should i do?

ISO 9001 is very expensive and time consuming to get certified and also expensive to maintain.  It also will not do anything for your problem of checking drawings.  You would be better off to develop a system, get that system documented in procedures and then follow the procedures.  Of course, none of that will do any good either, unless management is behind you.  Good luck.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources