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No Subscription = No Service Packs?

No Subscription = No Service Packs?

No Subscription = No Service Packs?

(OP)
I went from a large company with 13 seats of SW and annual subscriptions (or maintenance contracts--whatever you call it) to a small company with one seat of SW and no subscription contract.  I can't download SP1.0.  Am I understanding this correctly--I don't get service packs unless I'm on subscription?

If so, that's crap.  Service packs are mostly FIXES--and why shouldn't I get a fix if the software is defective?

I understand that I wouldn't get major upgrades, but I should get service packs.  If this really is the case, then I'll complain to my VAR (and get nowhere, but still complain).

Thanks,

Brian

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Yes it doesn't make sense, you pay $$ for software and if it has bugs they need to fix it for free.  Our company was stuck on SW2006 SP3.1 and I forgot to keep track on the subscription expiration date.  We had to upgrade to SP5.0 and ended up paying for subscription and a late fee.   

Unigraphics on the otherhand, I'm able to update maintanence packs after the subscription ends but not able to download the new version which is ok with me.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Contact your var...I believe you are still able to get eh service packs without maintenance. They will have to provide it though since you can't login, which is a hassle.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I've been told your VAR will provide you with a SP if you are having an issue that is corrected by the SP.  It's my understanding they don't provide the SP's for non subscription customers as a normal rule.

I agree, this is crap.  I've complained about this issue many times directly to SW and it seems to fall on deaf ears.  If I purchase software then I feel I'm entitled to all the SP's for that version of software free of charge.  I really can't believe SW treats its customers this way.

Rob Rodriguez CSWP
President: Northern
Vermont SolidWorks User Group
www.robrodriguez.com (updated 8/12/06)
SW 2006 SP 4.0 / SW 2007 SP 0.0

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

You could always tell them that Inventor patches are available for free and no hassle. That might get their attention more...might.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I agree - this is a bunch of crap. SolidWorks won't do anything about it unless they think they're costing themselves money, though.

Personlly, I'm of the opinion that you should receive all SPs for whichever version you've purchased. That should be built into the price of the software. Consider it a warranty. In fact, a savvy lawyer *might* be able to argue a suit on that premise.

Support and follow-on releases should require additional money.

I'm reminded of Autodesk's old foray into the use of dongles. Their customer base was so pissed that they backtracked and decided that the potential for piracy was less costly than alienating their user base.

I'll soon be in the market for a modeler license. If it's true that Inventor or SE offer SP updates without subscription, I guess I'll have to consider those. Or, consider paying the SolidWorks extortion.

It seems like SWX should give me a little nod because I've been directly and personally responsible for their deployment into three different companies.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

emmissivity,
You need to check again on the UG/NX software. Once your maintenance contract has expired, you lose access to your webkey account which is what gets you into the download area. At least that is how I lost access for a while. Luckily we had other divisions with contracts so I borrowed one of their site ID's.

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli
Sr IS Technologist
L-3 Communications

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Complacency and stubbornness are not words that should ever be used in the same sentence with the name of any CAD company.  Didn't SolidWorks learn anything from what happened to PTC?

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Yes, they did.....try getting service from PTC being a one man license of Pro/e with a service contract.....that's a joke.  I've waited days before they get back to me.  SWx's service is 10 fold better then PTC.  Although, I do agree that if you bought SWx 2006 with no service they should let you upgrade service packs....soly based on bug fixes.

I can tell you that software piracy is very important to AutoDesk and SWx.....plus the costs are rolled into the price of the software, right?

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Hi Folks,

I work for a VAR and my understanding is that customers are entitled to SP's regardless of subscription status if you're having an issue that is corrected by a SP.  As I recall this question is actually on the tech support certification exam that I took when I first came onboard.

The way we do it generally is to burn a CD and mail it off to customers that are not on maintenance or upload the SP to our FTP server.  I've also heard of cases where non-subscription service customers have been granted temporary access to the website in order to download SP's.

Maybe we're just nice guys but bascially as a rule we don't just blow off any customer who calls purely on the basis that they're not on maintenance.  Treat them like dirt and there's ZERO chance of them buying maintenance but if you try and help then at least you're not leaving a negative impression.  Obviously there's a threshold where you have to draw the line because you you have customers who are on maintenance calling in for support as well.  Those folks clearly get priority.

Anyhow I just wanted to add maybe a little different perspective.

Regards,

Chris Gervais
Application Engineer
CSWP, CSWST

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

(OP)
I'm okay with that--I'll work a little harder to get a service pack if I'm not paying for subscription.

My VAR is checking into it (they didn't know right off the bat).

Thanks,

Brian

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Hi Everyone,

I knew that I saw this in the Knowledge Base.  Here's an article explaining access to SP's.

****************************************************
Solution Id:
S-00082
  
Question:
If a customer is not on subscription support do they have any access to service packs?
 
Category:
SR Originated
Keyword:
Subscription Support
Link:
  
 
 
Answer:
Technical Support can provide temporary access to the subscription area of the web site for customers to download service packs.  This applies if a customer is having a problem with the current version they are using and it is fixed in a later service pack of the same major release. Temporary access to download a service pack would typically not be given if the customer just wants to be on the latest service pack, since part of the value of subscription service is the ability to download service packs.
****************************************************

So there it is.  It works pretty much as I thought though perhaps not the way everyone would have it work.

Regards,

Chris Gervais
Application Engineer
CSWP, CSWST

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I don't agree.  I should have access to SP's weather I'm having an issue or not.  I should have the same rights as everyone else when it comes to SP's.  I paid the same price as everyone else for software that works correctly and if SP's are being issued for the release I purchased then SolidWorks is openly admitting there are problems and they are fixing them.  I should be entitled to those fixes and not have to prove they are directly effecting me.

I agree I should only have acess to SP's for the version of software I purchased.  Anyhting more and I should be required to have maintenance.

Rob Rodriguez CSWP
President: Northern
Vermont SolidWorks User Group
www.robrodriguez.com (updated 8/12/06)
SW 2006 SP 4.0 / SW 2007 SP 0.0

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I concur.  SW policies on this and licensing in general are beginning to look a little like ProE back when SW was eating ProE's market share for lunch.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

It's like they are halfway giving you the service packs. Only if it fixes a problem you have. Wonder how long it takes to figure that out. Generally, performance is better in later service packs....so should the non sub customers be entitled to the software running the way its advertised.

I'm surprised at this stance when Autodesks offers service packs for all their products including Inventor for download on their site. No Subscription required.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I think SW will find this isn't any issue that's going to go away for them.  It's only going to get bigger as more users speak their mind and stand up for what's right.  I know I'm going to continue bringing this up until something changes.  Sooner or later they will have to listen.

Rob Rodriguez CSWP
President: Northern
Vermont SolidWorks User Group
www.robrodriguez.com (updated 8/12/06)
SW 2006 SP 4.0 / SW 2007 SP 0.0

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

So.... I guess that's why they make you agree to the non-disclosure statement before giving you access to the subscription area.  If there was public access to the list of fixed SPRs in a given SP then customers could just recreate issues that are fixed and claim that they need the fix for their use of SW?

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

IMO its like this, "if its not broke don't fix it". So if you don't see or have an issue with SP0.0, don't fix it, because all you are doing is making it possible to break something else that works. So again my policy is "if its not broke don't fix it".

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

The problem with that, Scott, is that you may not discover the flaw until a particularly critical time with a model that far exceeds your typical demands of the software.

That flaw could end up costing enormous amounts of money through corrupted files and the delays associated with trying to wrangle an update from your VAR.

Everybody with a valid license for a particular release should be given all updates so that their software is as bug-free as it can be.

As much as many of us detest Microsoft and their buggy software, think how upset we'd be if they played this game.

If SolidWorks wants to do it this way then they should stop calling them service packs and they should just issue new releases every few months and make clear that you may be getting buggy software that you'll just have to live with.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

You may disagree and thats fine, but it works for me and most of my customers. VAR's are required to keep the SP at their facility. Whether the others do or not, I don't know. I have requested a DVD burner just so I will have the SP, but I was denied... sad - but I still try and keep the latest SP on a back up drive. So if a customer can prove that the problem they have is keeping them from their work or is causing corruption etc... then we send them the SP. But "If its not broke don't fix it"

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

From my point of view it must be expensive for SolidWorks and the VARs to determine what is and what is not a bug.

So it may actually be cheaper just to give Service Packs to customers who are not on subscription. Instead of trying to determine if the bug they are running into is fixed by a particular Service Pack.

At any rate SP0.0 2007 has it share of problems, so Brian should be entitled to SP1.0 because I have a hunch that sooner or later he will run into those problems (on the positive side SWX 2007 SP1.0 is pretty solid from what I have seen).

Best regards,

Joseph

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

That's what support is for and we get paid for a job just like you guys do. If you didn't need it we wouldn't be here and everything would be free.

Didn't your mom ever tell you, "nothing is ever free" and "you can't get something for nothing".

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Scott, you guys can still be there to provide support and such. But service packs should be free and acessible to all. Most all programs out there offer patches to fix the bugs in the software.....and they are free, even Microsoft works this way. They are there to fix the problems in the program you bought so it works as advertised. Just don't quite understand Solidworks stance on this.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I did not disagree with any of you, but my point is that sometimes its better not to upgrade, without proof that the SP you are on is causing you an issue... which if you think about it, is the way SW is standing on this issue. They are not saying that you can't have them, but you have more access if you pay for it the service.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Just my 2 pence worth, but I really don't see the complication; by releasing service packs SolidWorks are admitting they are addressing faults that users wouldn't've expected when first purchasing the software, therefore I see no reason why they shouldn't be available to anyone who buys it.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Don't flame me for telling the truth here! I understand what you guys are saying because if have been on that end of the spectrum before... I just didn't start working for a VAR when I got out of college I worked in the field for many years b4 coming here.

When an SPR is finished does not mean that an issue you had last SP is fixed this SP. Most of the time is much further down the line when a SP fixes an issue, and sometimes it may not be fixed until the next major version. So if SP's were free and the issue you found was not fixed until the next major version was released do you think you are entitled to that release without maintenance?

Here is the rule: If a customer not on subscription reports a defect which is fixed in a major release which is newer than their current version, they must purchase an upgrade or Subscription Service to receive the new version.

Below is more about what this thread is discussing:

This is from SW License agreement that you all sign when the software is purchased with or without maintenance:

SolidWorks policy is in conformance with the End User License Agreement (EULA), which states:

SolidWorks warrants that the Software will be free of defects in materials and will perform substantially in accordance with the Documentation for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of receipt by you.  SolidWorks also warrants that any services it provides from time to time will be performed in a workmanlike manner in accordance with reasonable commercial practice.  SolidWorks does not warrant that the Software or service will meet your requirements or that the operation of the Software will be uninterrupted or error free or that any internet tool or service will be completely secure.  SolidWorks' entire liability and your sole remedy under this warranty shall be to use reasonable efforts to repair or replace the nonconforming media or Software or re-perform the service.

By definition, the term “…and will perform substantially in accordance with the Documentation…”  should be interpreted as “Critical/High” business impact customer issues identified within that 90 period by that specific customer.  Under these circumstances SolidWorks will supply the Service Pack that contained the resulting correction to that issue.

So you do have 90 days from  the day you purchase it, but you have to prove that it is causing you loss in work and time.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Okay I will also add a few cents to the mix. I agree that Service Packs should be available to non-subscription customers. We have been on subscription since SW2003 and there is some security knowing that we have that little extra support from our VAR. Buying a seat of SolidWorks should entitle you to having the best and most reliable product for the money. By holding the SP's on a need only basis seems a little counter-productive. I read a lot about graphics problems, usually first response.. do you have the currently updated driver?.. which by the way is a free download away. It should be the customers choice to download the next SP like Scott said if it ain't broke don't fix it, but give me the option. Okay I'm done.

Dennis

SolidWorks 2007 SP1.0
Windows XP Pro, Pentium4 3.00GHz
1.5 GB RAM, Matrox P650
Logitech Marble Mouse, CadMan

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Scott, I wasn't 'flaming' anyone!  Apologies if you took any offence, but none was meant.

I understand that some issues may be fixed in a later release, and fine, that's a separate issue.  I just think that updates for the SAME release should be available freely.

Phew!

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Well regardless.....Autodesk provides this free for Inventor so I wonder how long Solidworks will keep this up.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I didn't take any offence to anything, I just didn't anyone flaming for what I posted this morning.

Jason - They have been doing this since the beginning and I don't forsee this changing, but only you as a customer can change this policy.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Not only are you denied access to the 'fixes', you are not allowed access to the forums, nor can you access the 'best practises' and other instructional literature that soldworks keeps on their site.

Thats like buying a car and being refused the owners manual unless you pay up for extended warrantee.

-------------

Randy

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

and did you know this before you bought the package?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I disagree.

You have the sw (car) and the documentation (owner's manual) that were the latest spec when you purchased it. Now you want the additional information )repair manual) for free. There is always an extra charge for the extra information.

Once your car is out of warranty, do you expect the dealer or manufacturer to provide free fixes? Most sw has a 90-day warranty and then only to the extent that you can install it from the distribution media.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli
Sr IS Technologist
L-3 Communications

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

If you want to equate the $4000+ purchase of SW to a vehicle, then you might want to throw in lemon laws also.  Lemon laws vary by state, but in Texas, 2 of the requirements are:
1. The vehicle has a serious defect or abnormal condition.
2. The defect or condition persists and substantially impairs the vehicle's use or market value, or creates a serious safety hazard.

Because of the SW Nondisclosure Agreement I will not post any particular item from the service packs.  However, if you study the spr data for SW06 from 1.0 to 5.0, they are majority "fixes", not enhancement requests.  

You shouldn't have to prove any problems before getting any service packs (fixes).  But if you only get a 90 day warranty, then you should at least get the first SP without hassle.

Flores

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

If a car is found to have a "manufacturers defect" which possibly could cause a crash (at any age), those cars are recalled and fixed ... no extra charge.

cheers
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to find answers ... FAQ559-1091

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Actually there are new improvements per SP and that maybe why they don't allow them for free. All SP's from MS I think are just Bug fixes, and those are free. But I forgot that they do add some new fuctions per SP... it might not be much, but some are better then others and if you don't have maintenance. Then you are truly getting something for free, no matter how small it is.

I know when we go out... we make the customer aware if you don't buy maintenance. then you will not get upgrades or SP's for that version. We do provide them with support on installing only, not any support for "how do I". If there is alegit bug they can send that in and we will look at it. So IMO our customers are made aware before they purchase it. Most purchases sometimes don't include those that use it sometimes, because if I was in on it I would push for maintenance.

Thanks for reminding me of that Flores!

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

(OP)
Quite a response.

I understand the agreement--no maintenance, no service packs.  However, I don't agree with it.

If they hold back SP's because they contain enhancements, then they should separate enhancements from SP's and hold back 'Enhancement Packs' from non-maintenance customers.

I didn't opt out of the maintenance agreement because I'm cheap; I did it because I work for a small company and the cost of maintenance is a big deal (as the software purchase was).

So, I'll cross my fingers that the day won't come where a reported and fixed SPR doesn't grind ME to a halt because I didn't pay for enhancements.  Or, I'll give in and pay hundreds of dollars for maintenance so I don't have to take that risk.

I wonder... what does SW lose by 'giving away' SP's to customers without maintenance?

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

IMHO if you buy a version you should get all the service packs for that version.

Same as windows.

Or use usenet......

My subscription runs out oct 31.

I work for a small company also.

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Quote (SBaugh):


All SP's from MS I think are just Bug fixes, and those are free.

Windows XP SP2 contained enhancements as well.  One in particular is the Windows firewall.  

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Time for you all to turn in an ER and be done with this thread. Because its not going to change with you all complaining here turn in an ER and see if they will comply in a few years.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Well there's the rub Scott, this isn't really a topic for an ER. It is SWs company policy that 'needs' to be enhanced, not the software.

It is only through public discussions like this, where a groundswell of opinion can apply enough pressure to shame/force a company into changing its policies.
While I'm not sure if SW monitors this forum, it definitely does at http://forum.solidworks.com/swforum/ so posting your thoughts there might help.

For those who believe that all SPs should be included with the  'purchase' of the license to use SW (with or without subscription support) then lobby SW direct via email at info@solidworks.com and let them know.

cheers
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to find answers ... FAQ559-1091

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

I agree CBL.  The only way to change the policy is to voice your opinion.  I voiced my opinion at my blog http://designsmarter.typepad.com/rob_rodriguez/  and refrenced this thread.  I also asked for SolidWorks to comment.  I have had some people comment on he blog posting but none of the comments are from SoldiWorks.

Rob Rodriguez CSWP
President: Northern
Vermont SolidWorks User Group
www.robrodriguez.com (updated 8/12/06)
SW 2006 SP 4.0 / SW 2007 SP 0.0

RE: No Subscription = No Service Packs?

Don't you have to be on subscription to post a ER?  lol

Most likely this policy won't change unless Solidworks feels they are losing sales because of it. I think most customers buy the subscription but I can see a point in the future when there's not much left to add to the software (like Autocad now), that people may start to feel there's no real need to upgrade each release......and thus drop subscription. If that starts happening on a regular basis, I see them either offering some stuff in subscription free to the public....or dropping the subscription fees to keep poeple on it.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2

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