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Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
I have been through two rounds of interviews with a company. I just got a call from the supervisor asking me to email him my salary requirements.

I would rather refrain and let them bring up a number first.

Any thoughts on what to do? There is no official offer, but he said I was in the front running. They say they plan on hiring 2 to 3 people over the next few months- perhaps one immediatly.

I'm not desperate for the position and in fact have another offer. If I hadn't received the other offer or if it had come and this one comes at the same time I would probably choose this second one (if it comes).

Any thoughts on what to do?

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Aim high! If they want you, you don't have to have this job, and you have another offer, I say you are in a position to ask for as much as the market will bear. Of course that doesn't mean go over board. Just that you are in a position where you can afford to try and get as much as possible. The worst they say is no.

On the other hand you can always tell them that salary is negotiable but that can be dangerous as well because they may want you to give them a hard number.

Best of luck!

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
Thanks aardvark!

I thought about writing the email to the effect of "I want the position. I would like as much as you are comfortable paying me for the position." sort of thing.

I don't want to sound too non-commital and aggravate them.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Ask for 25% more than the other offer.  It is a starting point.

David

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

1. My first job:  They wanted me to throw out a number first.  I did so,  and they offered me more than I asked for.

2. My second job (same company): They wanted me to throw out a number first.  I did so, and they offered me more than I asked for - again!

So do they reward those who do not appear "greedy" or am I selling myself short?  Regardless, I toss up the number that I feel is fair for both parties and its reflective of what the job is "worth" for me.

I personally do not engage in the car salesman approach regarding any part of my life be it business or personal.  

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
ST,
That's why I thought I would say that I want the most that they feel comfortable with- not really ask for anything in particular.

I don't like the way some shoot higher (potential employee)or lower (employer) than they really want to leave negotiation room. Unfortunately, many people and companies play that way.

Incidentally, I thought that next time I'm in the position to hire someone, I would figure a salary I want to pay, ask for their number, then, if their were lower, still pay what I intended to do- sort of like what happened to you. I bet it started you off on a great note!

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

You can also go the rout for "total compensation".  My last change was a big one, with differing cost of living, moving expenses, change in company vehicle availability, etc.

I responded by asking if there was a range for the position, and noted that health insurance, etc was a factor to me (since it was).  This was also in the early stages of discussion though, and I didn’t want to price out of it.

Result, I got the same salary, money for a vehicle, more expensive insurance (with less benefit), no 401K match, bigger bonuses, bigger house payment, loss of most of the wife’s salary (she gave up a pretty sweet gig), and a bigger raise than I would have had at my last company.  I also get to learn something at work again.

When I made the move, I figure it was a bit of a step down in money, and I have pushed bak the potential for stock in the company, but I am in a happier place now.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
IDAA,
Thanks for the great info. With that I realized I can up front mention that I will need no medical insurance benefits (my wife's company cover us). Then again, maybe I should pull that card out later into the discussion? Sort of use it as an Ace in the hole?

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Getting the other party to throw out a number first is one of the first steps in effective negotiating.  The second step is to make a couter offer that doesn't give them everything they asked for.

If they force you into step one (throwing out the first nuber), don't forget about step 2.  Ask for more than you expect to get.  Don't get carried away and scare them off, but remember you will end up with less than what you ask for in the beginning.

I had an old timer tell me you should expect a 15% incresae in salary when you change jobs.  If you can't get that much, it isn't worth switching.  If you add 10% for negotiation, that would be 25% above your current salary as a starting point.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

I disagree with PhilBW.  I believe the party who tosses the first number has the advantage, but ONLY if you stick to your orginal offer.  Pick your price ONCE. Toss it.  If they try to counter: Politely say, thanks, but no thanks and get back to work with your existing position.  If they want to counter with other options (bonus, moving expenses, etc..), then that's a different story, but you should already have the math worked out for each scenerio.  I opt for higher salary as opposed to one time bonuses and moving expenses, etc... May be a little bit of a loss in the beginning, but over the long run, its much more profitable when considering annual cost of living raises, 401k contribution, etc....

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Concur, most bonuses are calculated as percentage of salary. Bonuses are not always reliable, anyway. Thay can be or not be paid. Same stands for company stocks. The world has seen stocks going down big time.

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

I prefer the senseless approach. If they insist you make the first move tell them what you want, and that that is not negotiable. If they come in with a lower offer, remind them what you said and point out that if they haven't got anything sensible to say then to stop bothering you. You might want to phrase it more diplomatically than that.

Typical bumps I've had from changing jobs are 30%, 0% (new country, moving expenses, and better benefits), 25% and hmm, 20%. Incidentally the last two were from leaving one place and coming back to do EXACTLY THE SAME JOB 2 years later - ie a 50% pay rise. How stupid is that? (Not that I left because of money but it didn't hurt).

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

It may be wise to ask the salary range for the job classification in question instead of throwing out your salary requirement.

It varies by industry but your "desired salary" just might be lower than the lowest salary for that classification.

Each firm has its own policies regarding employees' salary but usually large firms have established job classes and levels and salary range for each.  It is not unreasonable for you to request this info.  If they don't give you a straight answer, you should wonder why and whether you want to work there.

Salary negotiation is a difficult game for the candidate side but if you play it right, it can be a win-win game.  Good luck.

Mom-n-pop engineering firms, usually, salary is hush-hush.  Guy who's been with the "boss" the longest knows everything, though.

Throwing out a ridiculous amount first is a gamble.  They might give it to you, if you are lucky.  Once, I interviewed a guy for a position of senior drafter who required a salary bigger than mine.  There was no second interview.  Either I was severely underpaid or he was crazy.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
Thanks guys.

This is a weird situation. I sent an email to him (as requested), but stated that I wanted the most he was comfortable paying given the value of the position and my capabilities. I also mentioned that I wanted to work there.

Strange thing is a would LOVE to work there, but I do have this other offer for a job that is not as desirable, but still was very desirable before this one came along.

The second company (which I would prefer) will have to move a little quicker and step up to the plate before I close the door on them. I may call tomorrow and explain my situation. I'll keep you posted.

Sucks that I got the other offer first and am entertaining it.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Somehow "I want the most you're willing to pay" seems like the worst possible thing to say.  In addition to stating the obvious, you've implied that you're greedy and don't know you're worth to the company.  

That said, you can never predict what kind of response you're going to get.  The hiring manager may be a master negotiator or he may just want to get the position filled and be done with it.  Small businesses, where a dollar to you is a dollar out of the pocket of the guy you're negotiating with, tend to be pretty shrewd negotiators.

Confronted with the money question, I would ask for their range.  If pressed I might offer my range, with a little extra padding at the top end.  Do your research, so you're numbers don't sound like wishful thinking.

As others have said: there's plenty other than just salary to negotiate, so if you don't get what you want there, maybe it can be in vacation time or some other benefit.

Good luck.

-b

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

When they ask you what salary you want then they are looking to see how much you value yourself. If you don't ask for much then you don't think much of yourself, and vice versa. If you're in work at the moment then ask for a salary at the top end of the bracket you consider for the job. As they say on tv advertisements for hair spray - 'because you're worth it'. If you're out of work and looking for a job then don't price yourself out of the job as you can later move on after you've got the job.

corus

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
corus,
Kind of interesting what you said. They did do a personality test on me that showed that while I am confident and capable, I typically downplay my abilities and value- perhaps out of being humble? In hind sight, after reading your post, it seems like my response was right in line with their evaluation of my personality.

I think its hard to figure out what response they really want and what will work best.

We'll see what happens. I will probably follow up with a phone call today.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

I would've politely asked them to make you a formal offer first.  PhilBW is right - getting the other party to throw out the first number gives you the advantage.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
Called today. The boss said he liked my response. Will get something figured out by next week.

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Good job!

In response to wyhun above, I work for a Mom-n-Pop. We have an open compensation policy. There is no hush-hush or any passive aggressive BS (you feel underpaid, you tell someone now!). When we interview someone we ask them how much they want. We always have a number in mind, but it is a test. If they stare at their shoelaces and give the old "Well, I haven't really thought about it, I think I can be of value to your firm." They lose a lot of ground with us, not so much because they aren't good engineers or drafters, but because they are afraid to talk money. In a small firm the bottom line is only a small distance away from everybody, if they don't have an understanding that we are here to make money and not to just be engineers, frankly it scares us.

We insulate our engineers from the business stuff, but we want a general understanding of the fact that money comes in and goes out based on performance of our jobs.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
I want to be more involved in the business end of things ultimately. I want to make a good bit of money, but I want to be worth more than that.I try to work hard to make that happen. Its hard to tell if a company wants someone to ask for a lot of money or not. I know everything is about the bottom line. I usually ask finiancial and business questions in the interview to demonstrate this.

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

RLM2000: It's a good thing that you guys have an open compensation policy.  Many small outfits are quite sensitive to payroll/overhead.  There can be times when the big boss may need to dig into his personal savings to pay his employees (or forced-unpaid-leave or reduced hours, take your pick).

Another thing is, if the BOSS hires a fresh engineer and pays higher than a mid-level drafter in an open compensation policy, you end up with a disgruntled employee.

Generally, if the boss is fair, pays according to employee's capability/performance and doesn't make more than 5 times the highest paid employee, open policy works fine.  In the real world, though, there is a lot of BS when it comes to company policy on salary, big company or small.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

The big boss at our office has dug into his personal account for x-mas bonuses one time. It was something that I won't soon forget. When this office first got started I heard that they were operating on the red line for quite a while and it was very stressful. Now the only stress is execution and timelines (normal consulting firm stuff), sales are my job and I'm good at it.

You are absolutely right about the disgruntled drafter.

We recently had hired a couple of fresh engineers, both of whom in my opinion were top talent. Very, sharp guys and they are proving me right.

One of our drafters fell into this mode of saying things like "I'm not paid to do that . . . I will not help out the guys who are making more than me . . ." general passive agressive behaviour. We took him aside and asked him what his problem was, he said that he should be making more for what he did. He was having performance issues otherwise and we brought them up. He yelled and interrupted a bunch of peoples lunches at a local restaurant, we gave him a token raise to let him know that he was important and needed to improve in some areas. He quit days later and the office atmosphere has improved considerably.

In a small office it becomes so important to have the right personalities. Talent trumps all, but personality can take you a long ways.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

HVACctrl,

During the interview process, when I am asked to provide a salary amount first, my standard response is:  

"I have a particular salary range in mind, but I'd rather not disclose it yet.  I am interested in working for a company that is 'in-tune' with the job market levels of compensation for its employees.  The company I work for now is not paying what I feel is fair market compensation for my experience and skills, this is one of the reasons why I am looking.  I'd like to know what your company feels is fair market compensation for an engineer of my experience and skills."

This does a few things:

1) It gets me out of spitting out the first number.  I do not negotiate well if I give out the first number.  Not a "right or wrong" thing here, just a personal preference.

2) It lets the company know I am serious about negotiating, and puts them on there toes if they are thinking about low-balling.  It makes them believe that I have done my homework on market salary ranges in my area.

3) It tells them I am interested in working for company that is "in-tune" with the job market levels of compensation for its employees, and that I do not won't to work for a company that knowingly (and/or habitually) underpays its employees.

I haven't moved around much, but I've interviewed A LOT!!  This approach WORKS!!  (..for me, that is.)  I've been very successful in getting what I want everytime I've had the opportunity to use it.

And remember the "Golden Rule of Salary Negotiations":  You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.    

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

When prospective employers & recruiters ask me up front how much I want, I ask them to first tell me the details of what the job's duties will be, and then I'll give a number. I no longer have much faith that job titles are a sufficient description of the duties that an employee will be performing. Of course the new employer can do the "bait & switch" afterwards (which some have done to me).

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
privateer,
That is great advice. EddyC, yours too. Thanks to both of you.

Privateer, you wouldn't happen to be a UNO alumnus would you?

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

What I would do is pick a target salary increase of 15-25% then adjust that dollar figure to compensate for differences in the cost of living in the two different locations.

Be mindful the largest raise you are likely to get at any one time is going in the door.

Get relocation costs covered too.

If it's going to traumatize your family, ask for more. Sounds like you don't want to go anyway.

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

I think if I'd ask privateer how much salary they wanted and got back a long speech about what my company thinks is fair etc., then I'd show them the door (no disrespect). There's nothing more annoying than asking a straight question and getting back a waffle question. Incidentally, a company never pays 'fair market compensation for your skills...', it pays the least it can get away with.

corus

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
There is no relocation. both companies are within 10 miles of my house.


corus, Many people feel that throwing out the number first is a mstake. The only way around it is to side step the question. I have been commended by companies for doing so. We as applicants can't just start off by asking "How much are you willing to pay?". Its usually looked down on.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

HVACctrl,

Thanks for the compliment!!

I do want to repeat (if not clear before) that although the "fair salary" response has ALWAYS worked for me, I cannot tell you what is absolutely right or wrong in this situation.  The next time I employ the tactic, it may not work.  To borrow a phrase from my 401k portfolio, "Historical record is no indication of future performance...."

And yes, I'm a UNO alum.  And I still live in the area.  Are you in the area?  Have you been back to the campus lately?  Good luck with your decision.  Keep us posted.

curos,

No disrespect taken.  :)

But you made me think of a point.  And this may be a little off topic - when I interview with a company, I'm there to get a job, but also to learn as much about the company as I can (in addition to all the other research I do before the interview).  I take mental notes of the interviewer's behavior, responses, office atmosphere, workers in the area, etc.  My decision to take a job is based on ALL these notes, in addition to salary, location, benefits, etc.

I've turned down a lot of job offers because I didn't like something that came out during the interview.

With this in mind, if I was shown the door after giving my "fair salary speech," then why would that be a bad thing?  I would consider that to be a good thing, a "Win-Win" situation - they didn't want me, and I wouldn't want to work for a company that would show me the door for giving that answer.

I've sat on both sides of the interview table (actually interviewed candidates more than interviewing for a job) and I found it's not about "getting the job" or "filling the requisition with a warm body," it's about finding the right candidate/job match.  Those situations have better chances of success.  

   

  

RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

Negotiation is about get the "best" deal, while fair market is about "good enough," and that's the crux.  

If you want to get the absolute "best" deal then you play the negotiation game, it's a long, drawn out process, and odds are that the delta from fair market is too small to have made that much difference.

If you want to cut to the chase and get to work, then you'd do the fair market deal.  

Only certain personality types revel in negotiating, because it's about playing a game.  The rest of us simply want to move on.  

The bottom line is that you have a number that you can live with, which accounts for any raise you want, cost of living changes, moving hassles, etc.  You can ask for 5% above that number and it may be good enough that the company will accept it.

TTFN



RE: Job offer/ salary negotiation scenario

(OP)
privateer,
I'm a Privateer too. I still live in the area. I lived in Houston from 2000 to the beginning of 2005.

If you'd like, go to the site in my signature and PM me there- I'm "EdinNO" there.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

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