H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
(OP)
I have H2S in my water, excessive levels of Fluoride, and it has a high pH (>8.5). There is a chlorination system (Hypochlor 12) and carbon filter installed. When I add sufficient chlorine such that the hot water no longer smells, the residual chlorine on the cold water side is >10 ppm. I am told this is too high to direct through the carbon filter because it will spend the medium too quickly. It is also too high to drink, so I've fixed one problem and created another.
I am curious if anyone has any recommendations; preferably something that would solve the high fluoride, chlorine, and high pH? I do intend to get professional help, but it was professionals that supplied the current system, and I wouldn't be on this forum if it was doing everything I had hoped it would do!
I recently had a water test completed on my well water(with no chlorine added):
pH = 8.6
Conductivity = 651 uS/cm
Na = 148.6 mg/L
K = 0.34 mg/L
Ca = 2.88 mg/L
Mg = 0.49 mg/L
Total Hardness (CaCO3) = 9.2 mg/L
Fe = 0 mg/L
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) = 273.8 mg/L
Carbonate = 302.7 mg/L
Hydroxide = 0 mg/L
Chloride = 3.2 mg/L
Flouride = 6.5 mg/L
Nitrite = 0 mg/L
Nitrate = 0 mg/L
Sulfate = 44 mg/L
TDS = 370.29 mg/L
The magnesium rod has been removed from the water tank. I have been advised in other forums to turn up the temperature of the water tank to kill the SRB's, but this is not a workable solution with young kids in the house (and the one night I tried it, the odor was absolutely horrible for the next couple days.)
I am curious if anyone has any recommendations; preferably something that would solve the high fluoride, chlorine, and high pH? I do intend to get professional help, but it was professionals that supplied the current system, and I wouldn't be on this forum if it was doing everything I had hoped it would do!
I recently had a water test completed on my well water(with no chlorine added):
pH = 8.6
Conductivity = 651 uS/cm
Na = 148.6 mg/L
K = 0.34 mg/L
Ca = 2.88 mg/L
Mg = 0.49 mg/L
Total Hardness (CaCO3) = 9.2 mg/L
Fe = 0 mg/L
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3) = 273.8 mg/L
Carbonate = 302.7 mg/L
Hydroxide = 0 mg/L
Chloride = 3.2 mg/L
Flouride = 6.5 mg/L
Nitrite = 0 mg/L
Nitrate = 0 mg/L
Sulfate = 44 mg/L
TDS = 370.29 mg/L
The magnesium rod has been removed from the water tank. I have been advised in other forums to turn up the temperature of the water tank to kill the SRB's, but this is not a workable solution with young kids in the house (and the one night I tried it, the odor was absolutely horrible for the next couple days.)





RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
You need to use a RO system to reduce the fluoride to a safe level. The RO system will also reduce the pH of the water.
Hydrogen sulfide is very difficult to remove. Hydrogen sulfide is usually removed with aeration and the aerated water is then chlorinated to oxidize any residuals. The amount of chlorine required to oxidize 1 ppm of H2S to sulfate is 8.32 ppm. This is not easily done in a residential application. Please provide information on the hydrogen sulfide concentration.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
I don't know the hydrogen sulphide concentration - where can a guy get a test kit (I'm in Canada, so a source up here is even better)?
I have heard of locals pumping water from their well into 300 gallon atmospheric tanks in their basement and adding 0.5 ppm of chlorine. The tanks are vented to the outside of the house, and then they pump the water into a pressure tank and through a carbon filter. I don't believe they are physically pumping air through the water - it is just a passive system. Is this a typical aeration setup? I have also heard that aeration introduces other problems. I suspect aerobic bacteria, but I don't know????
I am an engineer by training, but water and chemistry are not my specialty. I am hoping someone can explain some of the concepts to me (or direct me to some good resources). What causes high pH in water? What is it that the RO unit will remove that reduces the pH? I have heard that the higher the pH, the harder it is to remove H2S. Is there a simple explanation for this?
Is there such a thing as whole house RO units? Are they high maintenance? Do they cost an arm and a leg?
Thank you,
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
At the higher pH the S is present as sulfide (S--) rather than HS- or H2S. If you acidify shift the equiulibrium back to HS- and H2S and with aeratation you can get rid of the H2S rather easily but your neighbors and the local airboard may not appreciate your efforts unless you scrub the H2S from vented gases. H2S scrubbers by the way use bleach and cuastic to obtain an elevated pH and oxidize the H2S.
Most residentail RO units are small point of use but you should be able to find whole house ones. The high F and alkalinity of your water are the biggest concerns with RO scaling. At 75% recovery you would be over 1,000% saturated for CaF2 so you will need an antiscalant. CaCO3 is a problem that can be addressed with acid or an antiscalant.
The RO unit rejects the bicarbonate and carbonate but passes the CO2, if it is present and it should not be at your pH, but would be if the water is acidified. Normally what happens is the ratio of CO2 : HCO3 changes across the membrane resulting in a pH drop to 4.5 - 5.4 range.
Now to an alternative solution. If you only use this water for services other than drinking water you might get by. This would mean you would need a bottled water supply for drinking, cooking, etc.
Ashai makes a F specific ion exchange resin but it is rather expensive.
A most interesting water.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
In all of my reading, and asking local professionals, no one can explain why there is no chlorine residual on my hot water and there is a chlorine residual >10 ppm on the cold (measured at the tap). I have been monitoring for months, so these aren't bad readings. At present, I am adding chlorine just in front of the pressure tank. From the pressure tank, the water goes to a retention tank. From the rentention tank, the water goes to the carbon filter. I am by-passing the carbon filter because the chlorine residuals are too high and will spend the medium too quickly. From there, the water either goes into the cold water supply or into the hot water tank. If I reduce the chlorine, I can bring the residuals down on the cold water, but the hot water begins to smell.
Any thoughts are appreciated. I wonder if it has something to do with the high pH. Is there an easy way to bring down the pH in a home water system?
Thank you,
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
htt
Sulfide determinations must be done in the filed as shipped samples will allow the H2S to oxidize in route to the laboratory.
If you spray the water into your retention tank, you may be able to air strip the H2S with the spray nozzle.
Oxidation of H2S by chlorine is more rapid and complete at low pH's than at high pH's.
You are correct in being concerned regarding bacterial contamination of the water when it is left exposed to the atmosphere.
There is no chlorine in your hot water because the reactions of chlorine with water (hydrolysis and ionization) increase with temperature. The chlorine is being converted to the cl- ion.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
If teeth absorb fluoride from tooth paste, is it also fair to say that fluoride is absorbed through the skin when bathing? Or is this a bad analogy. If it is correct, perhaps a whole house RO is the only good alternative?
It is my understanding that almost all of my sulphide exists as the HS- ion because of the high pH. Does the HS- ion have a rotten egg smell, or is it the minute amounts of H2S gas that is dissolved in the water that has a smell?
Can someone specify the chemical reactions (or point me to a resource) that indicates how chlorine oxidizes H2S? I am also interested in the reaction that oxidize the HS- ion (does this reaction resist)?
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Fluoride is not absorbed through the skin, only orally.
Only H2S, not HS has the smell, but the odor is so strong that you are able to detect minute quanitities.
Oxidation reaction:
H2S + 4CL2 > S + H2SO4 + 8HCl
Note that the acids produced by the oxidation reaction will neutralize alkalinity, slightly lowerly the pH of the water.
However Quark is correct, you should also investigate fluoride specific treatment as well. You can get a cartidrige filter or a whole house filter for fluoride.
Rereading your post a question comes to mind. Is this a new well?
Also, have you talked to the well driller regarding the water quality? There may be another option such as a deeper well. And what are the other well water users in your vicinty doing for treatment of this water.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Sparging the water would aerate to a certain extent, and should strip some of the H2S out, but sparging from a pipe would be an unusual (although damn cheap) method of aeration.
A more effective method of aeration would be to install a break tank, with a small blower & diffuser. Costlier than sparging, but you'd only need a relatively small blower (figure $100-$200), diffuser ($15-$30) and a tank (100-200 gals, preferably a tall one rather than a narrow one). I have never seen it done on a small scale, admittedly - but it is certainly possible.
Chlorinate afterwards (aeration will "blow" the Cl out of the water in a short timescale). What you're doing at present is only masking the smell of sulphide with the smell of chlorine, by the looks of things (10mg/l of Cl stinks like crazy, but I guess that's your problem at the moment)
As I said, I have never seen this done in small scale, but is certainly a cheaper "try" than RO, and should be relatively easy to retro-fit to your current setup. Diffuse aeration would also have the benefit of being quieter than sparging.
If it works well, you could sell similar systems to your neighbours ;o)
M.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
It is not a new well. I don't know many of the neighbors, but the ones I do know, have high fluoride problems too.
Based on what I could find on the internet, it seems that there is a big difference between Calcium Fluoride, and the stuff they add to the city water supply in terms of toxicity.
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
The sulfur should show up as finely divided black particles in the water.
Is it possible that you are not adding enough sulfur to complete the oxidation?
Is it possible that what you smell is sulfur?
It would take bacterial action to convert the sulfate back into sulfide. That is very unlikely. The sulfur is not going to dissolve back into the water.
Calcium fluoride dissolves in water and there is no difference in terms of toxicity between natural background fluoride and the added calcium fluoride.
Hopefully, your neighbors are not drinking high fluoride water. Just because something is naturally occurring, it does not mean that it is not toxic.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/limeback.htm
http://www.fluoridealert.org/absurdity.htm
http://
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Numerous chemical ways of doing this but I recommend draining the system and inspecting / cleaning it. Then you will be able to treat it at a reasonable low dosage of chlorine to keep it clean.
Note also that activated carbon will simply remove the chlorine and any organic carbon sources, all it will do for your bacteria is give them plenty of breeding surfaces.
When you look at your system think about the spots where bacteria might be breeding and start with those.
Good luck
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
- in the oil patch, SRB's survive at temperatures well in excess of the temperatures in hot water tanks. Is your ascertion that they are still producing H2S (even with a continuous chlorine feed >> 0.5 ppm), and this is what is consuming the chlorine in my hot water tank?
- someone suggested that my chlorine is so high that I have just replaced the smell of H2S with chlorine. Ironically, my water does not have a strong chlorine smell. It smells a bit like sulphur. I test the chlorine content using a test kit from a pool. Do the titration chemicals ever expire? I am wondering if perhaps my readings are inaccurate? The instructions for the test kit indicate that I am to add drops of the chemical to the water, and then compare it to the color scale provided. The kit is only good for 4 ppm chlorine. By the time I add the 2nd drop, the color is already a dark yellow and well past 4 ppm. This is what I have been calling >10 ppm. I recognize I should be diluting the water with distilled water in order to get an accurate reading past 4 ppm, but I have been lazy.
- has anyone ever read a scientific study that supports the claim that naturally occuring fluoride is absorbed through the skin? With all of the hysteria on the net, I am unable to sort out fact from fiction. Some websites suggest I should not even bath in my water. IF this is true, a point of use treatment for the fluoride is not going to work, and I will be forced to look at whole house solutions.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
As for the hysteria on the web about flourine, Flourine was originally put in drinking water to combat diseases such as cholera, before flourine this was a big killer post the use of flourine in drinking water the disease has practically disappeared. I have yet to hear of anyone dying of flourine poisening but I guess it is a powerfull oxidant so its not completely harmless. The reality is you take a slight risk to overcome a real killer.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
The primary drinking water standard in the US for fluoride is 4 mg/l. As a minimum, you should at least treat your drinking water such that the fluoride is below that level.
monaco8774 (Petroleum)
ccbailey is inquiring about the removal of naturally occurring H2S from groundwater, not something produced from anaeobic decomposition of the sulfate ion. ccbailey is also talking about potable drinking water so your comments regarding killing power of chlorine are somewhat off the mark.
Chlorine oxidation of H2S is effective anywhere between the pH of 3.2 to 10.1 units, which is well outside pH range of drinking water. Get yourself a copy of Water Treatment by Eskel Nordell if you have any doubts.
Regarding "hysteria on the web" regarding fluoride, fluoride has never been used for cholera prevention. The last outbreak in the US of cholera was in 1911, whereas fluoridation of water did not begin until the 1950's.
Here are some sources for poisoning and deaths from fluoride:
http://ww
ccbailey, here is a good answer regarding absorption of fluoride through the skin:
htt
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Hydrogen sulfide concentrations up to about 5 to 7 ppm can be removed using an oxidizing filter. These filters are similar to the units used for iron treatment . This filter contains sand with a manganese dioxide coating that changes hydrogen sulfide gas to tiny particles of sulfur that are trapped inside the filter. The sand filter must be backwashed regularly and treated with potassium permanganate to maintain the coating. Hydrogen sulfide concentrations exceeding 7 to 10 ppm can be removed by injecting an oxidizing chemical such as household bleach or potassium permanganate followed up by filtration. The oxidizing chemical should enter the water upstream from the storage or mixing tank to provide at least 30- 45 minutes of contact time between the chemical and water. The length of the holding time is a function of the chemical dosage, tank configuration, and water temperature. Sulfur particles can then be removed using a sediment filter and the excess chlorine can be removed by activated carbon filtration. When potassium permanganate is used a manganese greensand filter is recommended.
http://www.water-research.net/sulfate.htm#sources
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
1. Drain the hot water heater
2. Fill hot water heater with a high concentration of chlorine. Depending on what you have around, there are several ways to do this. What I did was to remove my main sediment filter (upstream of the heater tank) and fill the housing with 12% chlorine solution (approx 1L). Then I filled the hot water tank from my main water line, and the chlorine was pushed into the tank.
3. Let it sit for a while (I let it sit overnight)
4. Drain the tank
5. Fill and drain the tank 1 more time just to flush out any chunks of stuff that might have loosened.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
It seems there are two possiblities:
1) There is a colony of SRB's in the hot water tank and the H2S generated by them is consuming the chlorine.
2) The water chemistry is such that the heat of the water tank is consuming the chlorine and some of the HS ion which is present at these high pH's is being converted to H2S.
I am planning to shock chlorinate the tank to eliminate option #1. SRB's form a gellaceous coating, and I am told they will survive, but the chlorination should set them back for a bit. It should be noted that I have not found "slime" in any part of my water system yet, so this makes me think Option 2 is more practical (but I don't know if there is any science to my assumptions????)
I am talking to the people that installed the water system, and they think I don't have sufficient retention time for the chlorine to oxidize the H2S. They want me to spent $4500 on a 2nd tank, and an extra filter. I don't believe this will solve the problem because we have not noted that the problem is any worse under conditions of high or low water use. Once I fix the chlorine problem, they want another $1500 to $2000 for a point of source RO system. Does anyone know what an 80 gallon, fiberglass pressure vessel is worth or a filter to knock out any solids the chlorine knocks out? Any time I flush my tanks, I find almost no solids. I wonder if the small, cheap filters you get at any hardward store (without back wash), would suffice? Currently I have no complaints about sediments in the system, and I have no filter downstream of the retention tanks (and I am by-passing the carbon filter).
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
As far as a retention tank goes, you can find a cheap 60-gallon electric water heater, and just don't power it up.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
I see that you mentioned SRB's in the beginning. I assume that you mean sulfate reducing bacteria. Well, SRB's are generally present only in sewage, not drinking water. The reason for this is that there are nutrients in sewage that will support the growth of sulfate reducing bacteria that can oxidize the sulfate ion.
In drinking water, there are generally zero nutrients, and zero bacteria. That is why there are no SRB's in drinking water. In addition, you are chlorinating at high dosages that will obviously preclude the growth of any organisms in the water.
Sometimes in dead end water mains, black water from ferrous sulfide may be encountered where bacterial action has resulted in reducing some of the sulfate content to sulfide. In such cases, the black water usually comes out in shots. For instance, when a hydrant is opened, there is a shot of black water for a few moments and then the water will run clean. The remedy for this is chlorination with a slight residual maintained thereafter. This situation is probably different than what you are experiencing.
Going back to hydrogen sulfide in your water. What makes you think that you have SRB's instead of naturally occurring hydrogen sulfide in your well water?
Yes, you can have hydrogen sulfide in well water. Most sulfur waters are ground waters. Most sulfur waters have sulfur concentrations less than 10 mg/l and the majority of the waters have sulfur less than 5 mg/l.
You need to determine the amount of hydrogen sulfide in your raw water. This has to be done in the field as shipped samples undergo sufficient oxidation during transport to vitiate the results.
Here is an inexpensive test kit that you can use to test for sulfide:
http://www.lamotte.com/pages/domwat/testkits.html
Regarding oxidation of sulfide by chlorine, this reaction will be complete within 10 minutes. So if you have a 10-minute retention tank, you can be assured that the oxidation reaction is complete.
The amount of chlorine required to oxidize 1 mg/l of H2S to sulfate is 8.32 mg/l. It should be immediately obvious to you that if you have 2 mg/l of H2S present, that you then need to add 16.64 mg/l of chlorine to oxidize the H2S. But since you do not know how much H2S is actually present, you also do not know how much chlorine to add, do you?
In summary:
1. It is very, very, very, very unlikely that you have SRB's in your drinking water system, especially since you are chlorinating.
2. Go get yourself a test kit and measure the amount of hydrogen sulfide present in the raw water.
Only then will you know what you are facing.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Stephenw22, thank you for the retention tank idea!
Bimr, I latched onto the SRB idea, because it was something that might explain why there is no chlorine residual on the hot water (and smell). Your prior posts explain that the temperature promotes ionization and hydrolosis. Does this imply that the pool test kits I use to test for Chlorine are not testing for the Cl- ion?
Documentation from the prior owner indicates the H2S is 4 ppm.
The advice I am receiving from the local treatment experts appears to be incorrect. Do you have any suggestions on how I might go about getting rid of the smell, and maintaining water that has a healthy level of chlorine. Once I get the chlorine levels down, I am plan on installing a point of use RO system.
Is it easy to raise the pH of the water without introducing other complications? It sounds like the high pH of my water is the primary reason I am not stripping the smell and having to use such high concentrations of chlorine.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Note that H2S is present due to lack of Fe+2 and dissolved oxygen in the source.
*A quickie metallurgical chemistry test for dissolved Fe+2 is to bubble some H2S through the solution. Also , note that Fe+2 works better than many other sulfide-forming metals since it has negligible formation of other, soluble side species of types HMS+ or HMSO-.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
If you will reread my post, you should see that you are not adding enough chlorine to completely oxidize the H2S.
The amount of chlorine required to oxidize 4 mg/l of sulfides, expressed as H2S is 8.32 X 4 = 33.28 mg/l. After the H2S is oxidized, you should find a chlorine residual of around 20-23 mg/l of chlorine, that you will then have to remove (probably with carbon).
Some other thoughts for you. Aeration is widely employed for reduction of the sulfide content of sulfur waters, but the reduction in water expecially in waters of rather high alkalinity, is usually only partial.
Hydrogen sulfide is very difficult to remove and changing the pH in a residential application is not easy to accomplish.
l
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
The amount of chlorine required to oxidize 4 mg/l of sulfides, expressed as H2S is 8.32 X 4 = 33.28 mg/l. After 10 minutes, you should find that the H2S is oxidized and you have a chlorine residual of around 10 mg/l of chlorine.
The reaction is as follows:
H2S + 4Cl2 + 4H2O > H2SO4 + 8HCl
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
The pH is not going to have a large effect on greensand filters. Although, if you have a low pH due to carbon dioxide present, manganese may be stripped off the greensand and put back into solution.
Greensand filters are generally used for iron and manganese removal and can be used to remove up to 2-3 mg/L of hydrogen sulfide. Potassium permanganate is a rather expensive chemical, so that is the main reason that the greensand process is limited to applications with low amounts of iron.
The higher the concentration of hydrogen sulfide, the more frequently the greensand unit will need regeneration and backwashing.
http://r
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
You have indicated that I need to inject about 20 ppm of chlorine, and I will have a residual of 10 ppm to remove all H2S. This seems to be consistent with my experiences. Is it easy for you to explain the math/chemistry in terms of how you generated this number (I have lost all chemistry skills). The reason I ask is because I am dealing with people that are telling me that the chlorine should be added at 4 ppm, with a residual of 0.5 ppm.
Will a carbon filter handle a residula of 10 ppm? I have been told that it will spend the media very quickly.
Thank you,
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
Unfortunately, you cannot add just enough chlorine to only oxidize the hydrogen sulfide to sulfur since the oxidation reaction to sulfate occurs and can not be stopped. The oxidation to sulfate takes place to a great extent even when there is a deficiency of chlorine is added.
This reation shows the amount of chlorine (2 mg/l) to oxidize 1 mg/l of H2S to sulfur:
H2S + Cl2 > S + H2O
This reaction showss the amount of chlorine (8.32 mg/l) to oxidize 1 mg/l of H2S to sulfate:
H2S + 4Cl2 + 4H2O > H2SO4 + 8HCl
Here are links to a few pages from an old out of print textbook that may help.
http:/
http:/
If you enlarge the pages, you should be able to read them.
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
A company in my area is going to try a Centaur Carbon System on my water. I did a search through the archives, and I can not find this product mentioned. Based on Calgon's website, this is a carbon product designed specifically for H2S removal. Essentially he is going to remove my chlorine system and just have a carbon filter.
He tested my water at +5 ppm H2S (that is where his test kit topped out). However, based on his experiences in our area, he is quite confident it will work. I am skeptical, but he has promised to remove his equipment and replace my old equipment for free if it does not work (yes, I have it in writing). Basically, I have nothing to lose except the H2S from my water.
Does anyone have experience with the Centaur Carbon product? I am concerned how quickly the media will spend. I am also curious whether the removal of the H2S is negatively impacted by the high pH?
Thank you,
Chris
RE: H2S in hot water even with chlorination system
I thought I would give everyone an update. This centaur carbon system is amazing so far. We are not adding any chlorine. There is a passive system to suck air into the line before the pressure tank, and there is one to take it out after the retention tank (we left the 80 gallon retention tank plumbed in). Then the water passes through a Centaur Carbon System.
I can't smell H2S on either the hot or cold. I can taste something in the water (I think it is H2S). Hopefully we can get an RO system to work now. The guy that installed it is expecting we will get several years of the carbon before we need to rebed.....
Chris