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Tooting your own horn
8

Tooting your own horn

Tooting your own horn

(OP)
As engineers we are constantly facing challenges in our work place.  One of these challenges is receiving the proper recognition from our management.

Unfortunately, many times there are no simple tangible ways to measure our contribution to a company. Here are some examples to illustrate this problem:

1.    The sales and marketing team at a software company create an excellent sales proposal. Thanks to this proposal, the company gets purchase order for over 1 million dollars. Management sees the large purchase order and everyone in the sales and marketing team receives a substantial bonus.

2.    The accounting team at a manufacturing company realizes that they are spending too much in photocopies. They purchase a scanner and save the company thousands of dollars per month. Management notices the reduced costs in the financial monthly reports and award the accounting team with yet another bonus.

3.    The mechanical engineering team at an electronics company run an FEA study on several of their products, and find that they can reduce costs greatly by changing the materials of a few key components. They make the changes and save the company several thousands of dollars in material costs, without compromising the quality of the products. Since this project was not widely known throughout the company (i.e. there are no reports or purchase orders), management does not take notice. And there is no bonus awarded to the engineering team.


Part of the problem is that, unlike a salesman or an accountant, frequently engineers do not have tangible ways of communicating their “triumphs”. For example, a good salesman can always say, “look at all the software I sold this month” and show the purchase orders that were received. What can a good engineer say? Certainly one can measure things like a reduction in product defects (indicating improved quality), but even this is not tangible, since what exactly reduced the defects? Was it the new design or was it the new training procedures created by the quality control department?

It would seem to me that we have our cards stacked against us, when it comes to receiving recognition. This is why it is important for us to “toot our own horn” and let management in our companies understand what exactly is it that we do, the value of our work and how it saves money and increases profit. Because if we do not broadcast our contributions, management will not value our work and we will run the risk of eventually losing our jobs. Personally, I believe that any engineer can greatly improve their career by simply sending out an email to their management every time he or she makes an important contribution to their company.

Finally, by tooting your own horn you are not only helping your career, but you are helping managers everywhere understand and value our profession. As always your thoughts on this are welcome.

RE: Tooting your own horn

I personally think that business focus goes through cycles. My example here will be that of Ford Motor Company. Originally a company rooted in Manufacturing through the 1940; and then in 1950's it was design (styling), and the 1960's sales took the lead as the company focus changed. Then in the 1970's the companies focus changed again -  this time the company was run by the "bean-counters" - where finance and planning become the focus of the company. Well around the early 1990's, through another restructuring, Ford became more product (read engineering) centric and the planners were out.

I don't think it's a bad idea to toot yourself... but remember sometimes a toot smells pretty bad smile ! And I bet you'd find that your senior management is probablly more in tune with what is going on than they are (usually) given credit for.

Wes C.
------------------------------
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

RE: Tooting your own horn

When you can figure out how to toot your own horn without anyone knowing your are doing it, then you will be worthy of a brown-nosebelt in the art of self-promotion.

Even though I mock it, I believe it is an important political skill.  After almost 20 years as an engineer and never promoted into management, I am coming to realize that political skills are worth cultivating no matter how distasteful thye may be.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Um, do you /want/ to be 'promoted' into management?

Just asking...

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Tooting your own horn

josepv,
The bonus system you describe was a formalized system at my previous employer, anybody who had made achievements like the ones you described could fill out a form, be judged by a jury and win a bonus.
And yes the same discussion came up with the engineers because engineers save more money than anybody else. However management's point of view was simple: engineers are SUPPOSED to save money when selecting the most cost-effective design, it's part of their job. It's not part of an accountant's job to save money on the copying machine.
This was somewhat frustrating in the beginning, but as you think about it a little longer, the system puts engineers in a special category of employees (say between the management gods and the mere blue collar mortals) which was a very satisfying feeling. I don't even know if I'm being cynical or not... smile Anyway there's some sense in there but it means that, as you wrote, you have to subtly toot your own horn from time to time to be noticed in the positive sense of the word.

RE: Tooting your own horn

4
It's incumbent upon every engineer to understand the value, in monetary terms, of what they do- and to demand their fair share of compensation in return.

Do yourself a favour:  do the math, work out how much money you save, the problems you avert, the billings you generate etc. in the course of doing your job.  Then put in a second line item for the value of the overtime you worked but were not paid for.  And write these numbers down on your annual review.  Perhaps then, management will sit up and notice rather than continuing to take you (us!) for granted!

RE: Tooting your own horn

Is the pay structure not different in the USA for engineers and sales people?

In the UK many sales jobs pay a very little as a basic wage, commission is a major part of their earnings. Engineers tend to have a higher basic salary but limited chances to increase this. It is also not uncommon for a sales person who finishes bottom of the sales figures for two consecutive months to be shown the door; the same does not apply to engineers.

Why do we tip a waitress but not a person who collects the garbage, why do we tip a taxi driver but not a bus driver a train driver or an airline pilot?

I would certainly not view very highly someone who came up to me with a list of ways they had saved me money, that is what I pay them for.

RE: Tooting your own horn

You don't tip your garbage man?  Around here it's customary to give them money on christmas.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Usually it is difficult to quantify the value of good engineering.  In the construction world, a good design translates to expensive problems that don't happen.  It takes many projects over a long period of time for management to finally notice that, "hey, so and so must be doing a job because my phone never rings about his or her projects."  I always try to focus on the construction workers who build my designs.  They really know the difference between a good design and a bad one.  A compliment from them feels great even if it does not immediately translate into $$.

RE: Tooting your own horn

I'll tip the garbage man with a 30-pack of frosty deliciousness if I throw away something extra-ordinarily large or heavy.  Only seems right.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Geez, our unionized garbage men make more than I do (er, did, before I was laid off because I finished training the dude in China) and have a great pension.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Tooting your own horn

Admittedly it's easier to quantify these dollar values in some lines of business than in others.  Problems averted are definitely harder to quantify than savings attained in capital expenditure.  But it's important to try to put a monetary value to what you do, whatever you do, if you have a hope of knowing what you're actually "worth" to an organization.  We engineers have been so poor at this that our compensation levels relative to those of many other professions in "business" has slid enormously over the past fifty years.  Engineers aren't less valuable today than they were fifty years ago!

ajack1:  if you take your employees' desire to save you money for granted, I guarantee that there are at least a few people in your organization that ACTUALLY value their own time and aggravation and stress level and risk to their meal ticket a lot more highly than they value "your" money!  Make some of it "their" money- enough of it that it's way more than a laughing matter around the water cooler- and chances are, attitudes will change.

The Dilbert guy has it nailed:  in many companies, there is no real incentive to innovate or to take technological risk.  There is therefore little incentive to do much of what many of us consider "engineering"!  If the spec calls for a $5,000 part, but a smart employee does the homework and determines that a $500 part will do the job- but MIGHT represent some risk- and there's a hundred of them- what makes you think they're going to be the first penguin off that particular ice floe merely to save you money?  If they take the risk and it pans out, in many organizations, the Dilbert guy has assessed that their entire "up-side" is a certificate of appreciation in a handsome plastic frame!  Their down-side might predictably be a pink slip and a boot to the @ss on the way out the door.  What would you do?

RE: Tooting your own horn

"certificate of appreciation" ??? What company would do that?

In most organizations, the result is more like the relieving-your-full-bladder-in-dark-pants joke.

RE: Tooting your own horn

How about one that I used to work for?  That, and $300 for assigning my patent rights, is the sum total of what I got for inventing something that literally kept them out of bankruptcy.  Well, the plaque was plated with brass, and some of the particle board it was mounted on was real sawdust rather than plastic, but you get the picture!

RE: Tooting your own horn

I have a copy of a letter addressed to the 'team' from a General.  A couple of plastic blocks inscribed with a picture and thanks to the team etc and a little model of an Enhanced Paveway.  I also got several T shirts but these were more gizzits than actual rewards for contribution.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Moltenmetal thank you for your advice on how to run my company, as you have absolutely no idea how much I pay anyone, what bonuses or perks I give that puts you in a perfect position to make that judgement.

The fact is at least in certain industries we now work in a very global market to suggest  “Engineers aren't less valuable today than they were fifty years ago!” is simply not true.

 Many very good engineers work for wages that we would not get out of bed for in certain countries, they are driving down the market price to pay the “high” wages that certain parts of Europe and the USA demand you need people who perform to earn the money they get.

Whilst one of your ideas (which I assume you were getting paid for) may have saved a company have you considered that your attitude may have been what put them in danger in the first place? Was your reward a small plaque or keeping a well-paid job?

RE: Tooting your own horn

Certificate of appreciation: we have a 'STAR Award' with the hideously cheesy "You're a star" tagline. Gruesome isn't it? It was known as a "Personal Best" award in the Enron days. The wags in our building have mutated the STAR award into the RATS award with the predictable tagline "You're a rat". Both award schemes are supposed to recogise someone who has gone beyond what might be reasonably expected in order to achieve some goal. There is a financial incentive ranging from a couple of hundred pounds up to four-digit sums, although the higher ones are pretty rare. The awards aren't something you set out to get, but it is a nice surprise to get a reward you weren't expecting.

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: Tooting your own horn

Saving a company money by ingenious ideas and by going the extra mile is often not part of one's official job description.

If I were an owner, I would genuinely appreciate recognize and reward someone for going above and beyond the call of duty.

That is not necessarily what I pay them for, but would be appreciated.

Ed

www.engineerboards.com

RE: Tooting your own horn

ajack1:  

You are correct that I have no idea how you compensate your employees, what bonuses or "perks" you give them etc.  All I have to do on is your own words:  

"I would certainly not view very highly someone who came up to me with a list of ways they had saved me money, that is what I pay them for."

As to your statements about my previous job:  you know as little about THAT situation as I do about how you compensate your employees.  I had a good laugh about your reference to my "reward" being "keeping a high paying job"!  

Fortunately, I learned my lesson, moved on and ultimately found a company which doesn't just talk about valuing the contributions of its employees.  This company demonstrates its respect in real terms, especially to its engineers- but not just to them by any stretch.  In my experience, that's a truly rare situation amongst engineering employers.  

Tooting one's own horn here is totally unnecessary.  But if someone here ever did feel that their contributions weren't being properly respected, I would GREATLY prefer that they provide me with a monetized list of any achievements I might have overlooked rather than simply taking a walk!

As to "market pressures" and globalization driving down the levels of engineering compensation: that's a truism.      Engineering was once a profession but is now viewed as a commodity, but it's not India and China and eastern Europe that we have to blame for that!  Is it engineering that has changed, or engineers?!  In my view, commodification and the slide of engineering compensation relative to that of other professions is not the fault of "business", it's primarily the fault of engineers themselves for not properly valuing their own services and those of their peers.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Moltenmetal you state “Tooting one's own horn here is totally unnecessary” That is exactly how I feel, the company I own is a very small company and I am fully aware of exactly what individuals are contributing to its well being. When people go beyond what I expect of them they are rewarded to the best of my capabilities. I do not need them to tell me about it, I am fully aware of it and it is what I pay them for.

However much you laugh in global terms we are in well-paid jobs and for whatever reasons that is the market place at least in the field I work in.

If people feel they are under valued I would say either that they are not and are actually getting a good deal or the market rate or they are and they should go out and find someone who is prepared to treat them in the way they deserve as you seem to have done.

I still fail to see how “tooting your own horn” helps.

RE: Tooting your own horn

To me it's a matter of how you define "tooting your horn." I think it's very wise to help your management understand what you do and what you accomplish. People often look at the end result and have no real appreciation of what it took to get there. They may consider that anybody could do something similar.

This is particularly true if you've got just one piece of a large project. All the management really cares is that the project comes in on schedule, to specification, and at (or under) budget.

To me, the best way to toot is to generate routine updates and progress reports and distribute them to people in your chain of command (however high your relationships warrant). Keep 'em short and sweet.

They also serve as a nice record for updating your resume and if you work in an organization that does reviews and solicits participation in generating them.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Tooting your own horn

ajack1:  same here:  smaller company, where it's relatively easy to attribute successes, failures and the influence each of us has on the bottom line.  A niche business, offering good value and service to our clients for good compensation.  But that "other place" was a small company too, also in a niche business- no guarantees.

Glad to hear that you recognize and compensate for extra skill and effort rather than merely taking it for granted. That's sensible business and good management.

In larger organizations, individual contribution to overall company performance is more tenuous and more easily lost.  Greed and stupidity of management can easily get in the way.  It's incumbent on each employee to make sure their efforts, skill and personal sacrifice are acknoledged and compensated.  Ultimately, the only power any of us has if these are not recognized is to "walk" and find a better employer- but it's better to try to address the situation first rather than simply expecting management to figure out your dissatisfaction by osmosis or body language!  In most organizations, extra efforts, uncompensated overtime and personal sacrifices freely made this year become expectations next year- not only for you, but for your colleagues as well!  Let this go unchecked for fifty years and you have what our profession has become.

The challenge, as others have identified it, is how to "toot your own horn" in a way that doesn't attract the gut response that you gave to the suggestion.  Skilled people do this subtly but effectively.  But only a fool leaves it entirely to chance!

RE: Tooting your own horn

I agree with Beggar, the key is to generate short, concise executive summaries that clearly show your role. I will toot the horn of my group (Metallurgy in my case) as opposed to saying "I."

Of course years ago a plant manager told me the quickest way to move up the ladder was to get into quality. Hate to say it but he was correct!

I do appreciate the compensation I get, and I especially appreciate the freedom I have to do my job without being second-guessed or sitting in meetings all day. Those two things allow me to go home with very little stress at the end of the day.

RE: Tooting your own horn

I agree that it is important to quantify your contributions to the ongoing business success of a company if you expect to be promoted or given monetary rewards.  I think that as engineers it is easy to lose sight of the business realities because we're very mired in the details of producing things.  It's not a bad idea to contain the inner geek sometimes in order to avoid what just seems neat and instead do what is required for the business.  Ultimately your boss does not care about interesting ideas if those ideas do not/cannot:
1) interest a customer
2) increase productivity
3) be sold
Employees are one of a businesses flexible costs, therefore of course the employer wants to pay the minimum to obtain the labour (in this case mindpower) required to produce the end product.  I think star engineers probably know better than to stick in a situation where their talents are overlooked and are more likely to go find work elsewhere.

In Canada I believe there are far too many engineers produced by universities.  If the profession wants to promote its professional status then it must limit the number of people that can gain entrance to the profession.  This could be gated by a post graduate examination process.  Those with just an undergraduate degree and without the post graduate qualification could do just support work and going into the education process students would know that there are other hurdles to cross to get to the higher paying engineering positions.  You can obtain a Peng in Canada, but this is largely a work experience and ethics gate, not a knowledge gate.  If there are many comparable replacements for a person then even promoting oneself may not bring the financial reward sought.


RE: Tooting your own horn

Quote:

"I am fully aware of exactly what individuals are contributing to its well being. When people go beyond what I expect of them they are rewarded to the best of my capabilities. I do not need them to tell me about it, I am fully aware of it and it is what I pay them for."

Well, Ajack1, I'm sure some of the heat would not have been generated in this thread had you stated, in the first place, that yours was a small company as we can understand the justification for such a claim.

The problem is more often one for larger companies where there is an increasing remoteness between "he who pulls the oar" below decks and "he who steers the ship".

In any sizeable group of employees there is always at least one with a brown nose.

The brown nose secures his position by praise and admiration for the boss.
This is the guy who is not content to simply claim credit for his own work (if he deserves any) or to ever admit his own errors.

He will claim credit for the the work others have done and will lay the blame for what errors he makes on others.
And, when others do make mistakes, he will ensure the boss will hear it from him.

Not all bosses are as perceptive as you.

I once made the mistake of doing a lot of very hard and very good work only to go into a management meeting to hear a dedicated brown-noser saying " Here's what I've put together" and presented my work as his own.

Sadly, he seemed not at all embarassed by my arrival at such an inopportune time (brown nose, thick skin).

So sure, you may know what everyone has contributed but I do hope you speak to each one personally some time and say to them what you know.

It certainly helps them to know they are appreciated and they may even then accept it when you say you pay what them what they are worth (though most managers lack the nerve to say this and have a stock of phrases they will use, presumably prepared by HR, such as about how they'd love to pay more and if it were up to them, but....)

In fact, reviews and appraisals are there exactly for this purpose. They are also there so the helmsman and the oar puller can examine what each expects from the other, what each has done and that the realistic expectations get sorted from the un-realistic.

Incidentally, when anyone says they know what someone is worth, I hope it is exactly because they have discussed it with the people concerned, and not because they have a very good friend with a brown nose who comes to praise Caesar and who saves them the need for talking to the nasty dirty oar pullers.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Tooting your own horn

Maybe I didn’t emphasis just how small very small is, I am only talking about 5 employees here. So it is very easy to be fully aware of what all are contributing here, I fully appreciate that this is not the same in a large or even medium sized company.

Despite the fact that I am nearly always the first in and last out and spend many hours in the evenings and weekends preparing quotes and doing other bits I seldom take as much money out of the company as the people I employ. The fact is I work in a global market and in certain countries I have to compete against people with comparable skills get paid a quarter or less of what I pay, that is not whinging it is purely stating facts.

I do try and reward people but unless we have made a substantial profit on a project it is seldom a large financial reward, more often than not it is small things, get some ice cream in on hot days, a couple of tickets to the match or the theatre, a meal for two an extra days (paid) holiday is we are slack that kind of thing. As well as of course letting them know personally how much I appreciate their efforts.

For any personal “reward” it is also worth saying that whilst A will be happy it may well annoy B,C and D. One worker working harder and three doing less is not a good return from the companies point of view.

I HATE “brown nosing” and see “tooting your own horn” as a form of this and I stand by my earlier post I would view this in a very bad light.

On my visits to America I do struggle with the tipping concept out there, if I go to a restaurant and have a good meal and good service I will willingly tip, if I have a great meal and great service I will tip more, however if I have a lousy meal and lousy service I will not, I see no good reason why I should. I have paid good money and what I received was below my expectations, why tip?

This is where I seem to differ from most on here, people seem to expect extra for just doing their job as a right or maybe I am just more aware of what a tight budget small companies run on. Either way I am sure I will get shot down.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Small company environments are definitely different. What you do is more easily noticed, and when you do something significant you can communicate the accomplishment in a quick statement that 'something has been accomplished'- more information passing rather than bragging.

Larger companies have more opportunities for politics and political players. There you may have to "toot your horn" just to get noticed over the other politics - and "tooting your horn" may be important for the company as well. I've seen quiet, reserved people in large companies laid-off because management didn't realize a person had unique skills for a critical position - to the determent of the company.

Most people really only want to be noticed and appreciated for what they are doing - a part of "fitting-in" the environment. Being noticed and appreciated is a major reward in itself.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Tooting your horn is illegal in the UK after 11.00pm.

Unfortunately, brown nosing is not illegal.  In my experience most engineers are a quiet bunch and dont really do enough to sing their own praises. But I would like to think if I did something so unique and clever I would tell people about it.  It has to be said though, particularly where I work, most of the engineering is reworking on a theme so there is limited scope for saying how good you are as its all been done before.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Not to hijack the thread, but waitrons here in the US make less than the minimum wage, and are expected to make it up with tips.  They get taxed on their tips.  The IRS has targeted restaurants to try to get more accurate reporting from servers so income is not hidden.  "Service" is not included in the meal's cost here, as it is elsewhere.  It's not the servers fault if you don't like the food.  Please don't struggle with tipping here.

RE: Tooting your own horn

“Tooting ones horn” is not much different than bragging.  Be careful that you are not labeled a braggart.  

Personally, I believe that I am a bit of a braggart so I can give some basic advice.   NEVER try to make yourself look good by making someone else look bad.  I have never seen an engineer with a brown-nose-belt in the art of self-promotion violate this rule in public.  In contrast, I see most politicians use this technique quite effectively.    

RE: Tooting your own horn

& before 7am as I recall.

Trouble is brown nosers often end up managers due to their actions.  This then perpetuates the problem.

Death to Brown Nosers!

Or if your company has abandoned capital punishment maybe just undermining them & winding them up until they look silly or can't take it anymore.

RE: Tooting your own horn

Kenat,

No, I liked plan A better. Kill 'em all!!

RE: Tooting your own horn

Sorry Guys, no time to read it all. But consider this: if you think engineers have a problem with recognition, how about poor "Quality Guys" (QA, QC)?

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

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