Career advice for an entry level engineer
Career advice for an entry level engineer
(OP)
Hey guys,
I am new to this forum. So, I don't know if this is a right place to ask this question. I got my B.S. in Structural Engineering last year and I have been working at a Timber Industry for over a year now. Recently, I am thinking about going back to grad school, but the question is if I should do my MS in engineering or get MBA. My long term career goal is to become a project manager or managing principle. I asked couple of engineers and some said to get MBA since engineers usually don't have enough management and market knowledge to become a good manager and other said, MBA is overstated and I should go for MS in engineering to move up. In my personal opinion, I think I should get MBA with PE or SE license. What you guys suggest for this situation? Your suggestion on this matter will be really helpful.
Thanks,
I am new to this forum. So, I don't know if this is a right place to ask this question. I got my B.S. in Structural Engineering last year and I have been working at a Timber Industry for over a year now. Recently, I am thinking about going back to grad school, but the question is if I should do my MS in engineering or get MBA. My long term career goal is to become a project manager or managing principle. I asked couple of engineers and some said to get MBA since engineers usually don't have enough management and market knowledge to become a good manager and other said, MBA is overstated and I should go for MS in engineering to move up. In my personal opinion, I think I should get MBA with PE or SE license. What you guys suggest for this situation? Your suggestion on this matter will be really helpful.
Thanks,





RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I think the MBA would make me more rounded and capable of more easily being accepted into management, etc...
That's just my take. Others will certainly see it differently. It will depend on your industry, your job aspirations, etc.... It might even depend on the individual looking at your resume.
Go for the PE for sure either way. Particularly in structural, it seems to be important- although the structural PE exam appears to be fairly difficult.
Ed
www.engineerboards.com
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
If you are hoping to go into consulting engineering, with an A/E, E, or E/A firm, I would probably go with the MS in structural engineering. The MS is getting quite important for the Structural discipline - it helped me considerably to be a much much better engineer than I ever would have been with a BS only. With the MS, you can develop yourself into a good engineer, get licensed, and you will eventually move into management, project management or marketing as you get older.
With an MBA only, you get a lot of business savvy, but I would question whether you would ever become a good structural engineer.
There's nothing worse than an engineering manager who doesn't understand his/her discipline very well.
I have a friend with an MS in Structural who, after working a few years, went on to get an MBA while working. Our current president is an architect who just got his MBA.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Thanks,
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Regards
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
So it definitely made me a much better engineer.
If you study some of the salary surveys out there, I think that in structural, the MS may get a bit of a boost in salary compared with B.S., perhaps $2000 to $4000 per year. The separation between the two stays about the same and maybe grows narrower in later years.
The big difference, in my view, is that the MS opens many more doors of opportunities (in structural) than the BS. I manage a small structural engineering department and generally will not even consider hiring BS graduates. This is true of some of my other manager friends out there as well.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I was thinking of getting my M.S. in Structural Engineering at San Diego State University while I work for a firm, because they offer part time program at night. Question is will it look bad on my resume since I got my B.S. from UC San Diego which is much more reputable school than SDSU?
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I'd check out the placement statistics of SDSU to see how they fare. Also, call some area-wide SE's to see if there is any sort of "reputation" for either school...how they compare, how well their grads do, etc.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Most of the better mangagers I've had didn't have an MBA. Some of the useless ones did, or other higher business qualifications.
Just my 2C/P
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I think every structural engineer where I work has a master's, the rest are considered interns even if they have a B.S. This is not the case for other disciplines. Most of the electrical, mechanical, and civil folks have only a B.S. The structural department will not even hire someone full time who doesn't have a master's. I've always wondered why an M.S. in structural seems to be so important.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Dik
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
But the work experience did a LOT for my grad studies, as I was hungry then to really get into structural engineering while some of my other fellow classmates, who went straight through from undergrad, were quite burned out on studying.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
a survey i one read said
engineers from 0 - 5 years experience wish they had more technical understanding, and wished they took more technical courses.
engineers from 5 -15 years wish they had more business understanding, and wished they took more business / mgmt courses.
engineers from 15 + years wish they would have a better world understanding, and wished the'd taken more diversity, arts and liberal arts courses.
(just thoughts)
Wes C.
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Weighing in on the MS vs. MBA discussion from above, I would agree that it really depends on what you want to do in the future, and that may change as time goes on. When I was in school, I always thought the people who got a masters degree were crazy. After I graduated and worked for a summer, I missed learning and started taking prerequisite classes for an MBA. When it came time to decide whether to continue with an MBA or switch to MS (mechanical engineering), I decided to get the MS. I don't regret it one bit. I thought that I had a pretty good grasp of engineering subjects when I earned my BS. I learned during my MS studies that I still had much more to learn, of course I was also working full time and that probably played a role in the revelation. Now that I have also earned my MS in engineering, I am much more confident, not just in my knowledge of engineering but in my abilities. I learned valuable research and writing skills that I didn't gain while working towards the BS. I also have better analytical skills. These are skills that directly affect my everyday work.
As far as salary is concerned with the MS, having the MS gives me two years of "experience" towards advancement but does not directly affect my salary. What does give me a monthly increase in salary, through license premium, is my PE license. In the civil/structural world, I think a PE license is almost a necessity, if not at your current job, definitely in the future. Do that first.
One other thing you might consider is a Master of Engineering Management. It is kind of halfway between an MBA and MS as you get exposed to management classes but also take some upper level engineering classes. However, it won't get you the recognition that either an MBA or MS will get you because it isn't as well known. Several noteworthy universities offer the MEM degree through distance learning, as well as MS degrees. Good luck with your decision.
Jason
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
If you work in the automotive engineering world, then a masters or PhD taken while you are less than 30 will REDUCE your starting wage, in Australia. Wait until you have some real world experience under your belt before pursuing either. By then, your knowledge in your industry will exceed anything you might have learned at university. That is the point behind Wes' note of the 16th Sept.
By the time you are 30 you might well choose to pursue a further degree, but it might well not be in engineering.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
What Greg says is correct, a lot can change in 5 years. Five years ago, I wouldn't have imagined myself where I am now and I bet that 5 years from now, I won't be where I now imagine myself going. When I am 35 or 40, I might wish I would have gotten the MBA, or chucked it all to be a missionary, you never know.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
One of my profs once told me:
"Never get a Master's degree unless someone else pays for it"
Of course, he was a Prof at a state school, so who knows. But I say if you can get a free masters, valuable experience, and be able to continue to pay off debt instead of quitting and incurring more debt, thats the way to go. Just my opinion.
Chaos
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
In New York City there are five engineering schools and three have graduate programs. It seems that many of the native-born engineers you meet from this area went to City College, Manhattan College, or Polytechnic as undergraduates. I've never come across anyone who disparaged another engineer because of his/her school (legitimate engineering school that is). We have our preferences - everyone thinks their school is tops.
The graduate schools are City College, Poytechnic, and Columbia. It seems that most make their decision based on location to home and available courses, since most of us in the city went/attend school at night. Again, I've never come across anyone who looked down upon someone because of their school.
There's a young engineer in my group who went to a highly regarded school in upstate NY then received his MS from a state school in the midwest. So what? There's another young engineer who graduated from U of Illinois. So what? Is it the name of the school on the degree or the the person with the degree who gets the job done?
Quit worrying about what others will think; does it really matter in the long run?
Just don't get one of those degrees based on your "life experiences". We had one here with an MS and PhD from California Pacific University. Good guy; knew how to bring in work, but it was hard to keep from laughing whenever he introduced himself as doctor.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
A good majority of the engineers at my company graduated from Kansas State University, which has a good reputation as an engineering school. Many engineers graduated from Unviversity of Kansas, which I obviously think is not as good (hence I didn't go there) but they are still good engineers (some of them anyway). Still a few more graduated from Wichita State University. It makes no difference where they came from, what matters is the work they do. Now you probably have never heard of any of these schools but we have 140 very fine engineers working here and the company doesn't care where they went to school, just that they are degreed engineers.
In short, if I were in your situation (and I was very similar about 5 years ago, although not structural), based on my experiences I would continue working, get the MS paid for by your company and get a PE license. At that point, you are then in the drivers seat for your career. Good luck!
Jason
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I think the marks, and who your supervisor is, is probably more important than the school.
Personally, someone in the top 5 at SDSU is more impressive than bottom 5 at UCSD to me. If you work with a good professor that is well respected in industry, that is better than someone just starting out as a professor.
Just my thoughts.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I just spoke with my current boss, and he said getting MBA is better choice because being a project manager I would need more business knowledge than technical knowledge, but When I look into the job market, I see many project manager has MS in Engineering rather than MBA. Am I right on that? Do you guys know many engineer with MBA in the position Project Manager ?? I know that MBA gives you significant salary increase compare to MS in engineering.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
MBA vs MS. It depends on the role. If the job is more business related than technical, then MBA of course. If the job is mroe technial, then MS.
There have been many conversation about who makes more money, MBA vs MS. Again, it depends. If you work at Microsoft, I am willing to bet the techies make more money. If you work for Morgan Stanley, I am willing to be the MBAs make more.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Absolutely. I would add that it also depends on the company since PM can be a nebulous postion.
For example where I work some PM's strictly manage the administrative & contractual aspects of the project; others deal only with technical matters; and the rest of us are somewhere in between.
We have two PE/MBA PMs. One only deals with managing budgets, schedules, reports; he won't make any technical decisions; can't design his way out of a paper bag and he admits it. The other is an excellent structural engineer but he's a disaster when it comes to managing budgets, keeping the project files in order, etc.
I work for a large company; most of the corporate managers are not engineers. Many of the regional managers and P/L managers are engineers. The way we operate, these people deal mainly with money issues and business development/marketing; they do little or no technical work. If this is your ambition (LARGE COMPANY) MBA is probably the way to go. However, you still need to have a good understanding of how a project gets done.
If your goal is to work in a smaller firm, where many of the principals are more actively involved in technical work - MS.
AS a PM, my work I prefer the engineering aspect of the project. Honestly,tracking project schedules, budgets, etc doesn't require an MBA; it's more a matter of being organized and dilligent. Most of the PM's here are PE/MS rather than PE/MBA. Another aspect of my job is business development/proposals - doesn't take an MBA.
PaKaz - I had an uncle who lived to be 95; not one grey hair on his head. His philosophy was simple: Pace yourself.
Take a breather; give yourself some time to find out what will give you fulfillment in your work.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Maybe it was the morning OJ with the rye chaser or the five DiNobili cigars (aka guinea stinkers) each day.
Then again, he wasn't an engineer; that might've had something to do with it.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
You have no doubt read the salary reports that state MBA graduates' salaries are in the top 10, or whatever. Those MBA's are typically people who work for financial organizations or upper management at large public companies, etc. Harvard graduate MBA's will usually command a starting bonus of tens of thousands of dollars and high starting salary. You won't see that as project manager of an engineering firm.
What you need to decide is if you want to tend more to the technical side of engineering or more to the management side. The rest will fall into place after that.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
If you really want to make $$, forget about MBA or MS. Go to law school! I know a firm in Denver that pays 100k+ for first year lawyer. But they wont even interview you if you are not in top 10 (or 10%, i cant remember). Also, with engineering degree you can also do patent law. Unlike PE, you can take the bar immidiately after you graduate.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
My personal opinion:
It's not the school. It's the person.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
I never actually found out. Early in my career I was told it was someone who had a gold key to the rest room. The firm I work for doesn't have any.
Even people I know who have this title won't explain it. Maybe they're afraid to admit they get a bonus.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Good luck with "the couple of years" thing. In /hard/ engineering, a couple of decades is the right amount of experience.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Be nice or you may get red flagged.
PaKaz, if your employer is paying for it and unless it's a really obscure school I would have thought the answer is pretty obvious and you've found it. I really don't see the school being an issue but things are different here in the US than back in the UK.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
They don't.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
What you need depends on what is required of you, for that particular job.
It sounds like you are looking for an exact "cause and effect" answer. I think people are trying to tell you, "it doesn't work like that".
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Correct me if I am wrong, M.S. in Engineering will give me advancement in my engineering career, but not much salary wise. After 5-6 years later, it won't even matter. MBA (on the other hand) will deteriorate me from the engineering field, but I will be in the managerial position. But as some of you said, with MS I can be in managerial position. Is this right?
Thanks again for all of your comments on this.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
You can be in managerial position with/without an MS, with/without an MBA or with/without a high school diploma. There is not going to be any one magic formula. Some companies will look for that piece of paper on your wall, some will look at the work you actually do. Some companies will prefer MS, some will prefer MBA, yet others will see that MS/MBA and think you are overqualified. At my company, most of the managers have some kind of masters degree but not all of them. My wife's uncle is the owner/president of a company with multi-million dollar sales per year and he didn't finish high school.
The key is that you need to do what you can and want to do. It won't do you any good to go for the MBA degree if you won't finish or get fed up halfway through and don't learn what you should. If your interest lies with the MS, do that and use that to your advantage. Simply having the MS or the MBA will not magically open up the floodgates of salary and promotions. It is what you do with that education that will lead you in the future.
Oh, and a small correction. In the structural/civil field, the MS combined with a PE/SE license can lead to large increases in salary with the right company and area of practice. Good luck with your decision.
Jason
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
My personal choice would be an MBA, but my situation is diferent from yours.
Go for the one that sparks your interest and you should get the most "bang for the buck" with it.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
One point I never saw brought up was the issue of marketability within the Engineering community. Ignoring the question of quality of school for MS, the mere fact of having the MS in your back pocket is an insurance policy.
You never know where your path will lead you. You may be plotting a course as Captain of your ship, but sometimes the winds are fickle and may send you a different route than you had charted.
If you intend to stay in California and practice structural engineering, then the MS route (initially) gives you a very solid resume if you should need to find work elsewhere. If you can pull off the MS while working (no easy task, you will be making large sacrifices) then how hard would an MBA be for you?
On the other hand, it seems people being groomed for management maybe don't need a lot of highly specific education. Say you go the MBA route, you will still be working as an engineer until you are promoted to PM, correct? That may be all the engineering you really need once you move into PM work. They don't need to be as technically savvy as people managing the actual design.
Like BelSpringKen wrote: pick the one that interests you more. From what I can tell, the PM/MBA route is potentially a fast track to upper management, meaning more money and more pressure, a lot more.
The MS route can get you to the same place, but will take you longer. I, personally, respect someone more who would go the MS route and what I consider paying your dues. To each his own though. You won't have to care what the little people think once you are in management, will you?
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
My understanding is that the MBA is more relevant for running a company, but most other managers in an engineering company are really project managers anyway.
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
2. What you learn when you're there is always far more important than what they are teaching you. This applies to BS as well as MS, and I intend to find out about Phd school.
3. There are always people who went to a better school, drive a better car, and have a better job. Enjoy where you go, have a good relationship with your advisor, and pay attention to what they are trying to teach you.
Nick
I love materials science!
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Now here is my next Dillema.
1) I can stay with my current employer for next 3 years and get paid for my schooling but I will not gain any design experience since it's not a design firm. (my work will work around my school time) By the time I will graduate, I will be debt free but no solid hands on design experience.
2) I can go work for a design firm and by having little experience from my current job I will get a little salary bump. I have to pay for my schooling from that money (for state universities, I think can pull it off) but I am gaining the design experiences. So by the time I will be out of grad school, hopefully I will have solid 3 years design experience, but a little debt.
Which one is the better choice?
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
If you can't handle the deblt, go for the free schooling.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
If the other route is taken, you've degree with little or no experience, which may, or may not, be a difficult selling point.
TTFN
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RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
RE: Career advice for an entry level engineer
Also you should be able to get merit-based funding from the grad school if you go full-time. If you don't have house or car payments, or a family to support, you might be able to get enough to live on without supplementing it with loans.
Hg
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