English language globalisation
English language globalisation
(OP)
Did the first step for globalisation start with the learning of English?
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English language globalisation
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English language globalisationEnglish language globalisation(OP)
Did the first step for globalisation start with the learning of English?
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RE: English language globalisation
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Also, it is a melting-pot language. Even though English is a Germanic language, it is heavily influenced by French, which links it with the Romance languages too.
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
Tower of Babel anyone?
RE: English language globalisation
Linguistics is a fascinating field, the way I remember it is that English resembles, in structure, the languages that the children of parents with different mother tongues speak (creoles, technically). I have a feeling HgTX is about to write a long post correcting me...
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
I think the first step towards globalization was stepping aboard the Nina, Pinta, or Santa Maria.
rmw
RE: English language globalisation
Why do you forget India. We were a British colony for centuries. Definitely each region in India has its own influence on the usage of English in that region.
RE: English language globalisation
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
21 Reasons Why The English Language Is Hard To Learn:
1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
2) The farm was used to produce produce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was
time to present the present.
8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10) I did not object to the object.
11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13) They were too close to the door to close it.
14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
RE: English language globalisation
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: English language globalisation
In French there is an additional difficulty in that they drop the ends of words in much of their pronunciation. So without seeing the written words, there can literally be as many as ten or more different words that sound the same when spoken.
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
Although “dove” is a common form of the past tense of “dive,” a few authorities consider “dived” preferable in formal writing.
Spoken English is not always as easy to understand. Take the Geordie dialect for one example of the many variants. The Geordie accent is a culmination of the old Viking tounge & the Celtic accents nearby
How man mutha man. - Please mother don't embarass me.
Ye knaa what ah mean leik. - Do you know what I mean?
Eeeh man, ahm gannin te the booza. - OK, I have had enough, I am going to the bar.
Whees i' the netty? - Who's in the lavatory?
Gan canny or we'll dunsh summick. - Be carefull or we will crash into something.
"Ah wes palatick" - "I enjoyed myself"
"Howay doon to the Chinese, pet" - "Would you care to dine with me"
"Mindshesweelstacked" - "What a stunning figure that young lady has"
"Ootside!" - "Let us settle this matter in a civilised manner"
"Aal cloot yer lugs" - "I am sorry but corporal punishment appears necessary"
Whyaye Globalise that
RE: English language globalisation
German is like going Direct on Line. The moment you start, everything is needed and all knowledge of grammar is very important otherwise you cannot communicate. There is a sudden in-rush but after a short time it drops off and you are away running.
English is like using a softstart. The moment you start, things are a little easier and the inrush of data is relatively small to get movement. However, the amount of data builds up and up until you are either successfuly away and running or you decide to bypass..
RE: English language globalisation
or
"Mad Cow"
I see what you mean
RE: English language globalisation
Most of the good books, technical or not, are written or translated in English, Most of instrument technical instructions are written in English. Most of the music is heard in English, everybody remember the Beatles and Frank Sinatra songs.
Most discursive language in ONU, NATO, and UNESCO and even in CEE is in English. Is for that reason that I question if the first step for globalization started with the learning of English language?
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
I would say the explosion of globalization has been the result of:
A) The invention of the sealand container which made shipping cost-effective
B) The growth of communications technology. I would speak to my wife via cell phone from China and it was as clear as if I was on a landline across town and only cost 18 cents per minute (from US to China).
The growth of English is much more the result of globalization and the strengths of both the American development machine and the American consumer market.
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RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Market dynamics now affect the globalization of language. When USSR and East European forces were dominant it was fashionable for us to learn Russian language and know more about Russian literature and music. Now no one acknowledges or flaunts their Russian language skills.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
I think the Romans did that a long time before the British, Spanish, French and Portuguese started building their empires, why were they not all speaking Italian at that point?
RE: English language globalisation
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin
RE: English language globalisation
If I read your reference correctly and recall my history for a time the countries in the sphere of influence were speaking Latin. At least the educated classes and probably when it came to trade, not the peasantry maybe but still quite a major second language.
To some degree this status continued well after the Roman Empire fell, as your reference details, especially for the educated and religious circles.
So, I guess I'm missing your point.
The Romans did do it, not quite as global but quite comprehensively in Europe/Middle East/North Africa.
The British/US just did it more recently and slightly more globally.
Could well be that in a few 100 years another language has taken over.
Ken
RE: English language globalisation
It is a good read, and it explains a lot of the anomalies, and foibles in the language, as well as making comparisons with the differences among English speakers around the world.
I recommend it to all English speakers. It was given to me by a UK English speaking person.
rmw
RE: English language globalisation
I believe that macho (as in macho-man) also comes from portuguese, and verandah, however you spell it. On the other hand I know of no american indian words in the english language (as spoken in England), other than How, maybe.
corus
RE: English language globalisation
plus many place, plant and animal names.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Neat thread. Here is my 2 pence worth.
The first truely global power was probably the Romans in my mind. They held a larger proportion of the known civilized world, for a longer time, than any other civilization before or since.
So, the first step of globalization started with ..... war.
With respect to how easy it is to learn english, I think a large part comes from what other language you already know. People with a Asian background have a lot of difficulties with english because in many of their language, there is no tenses in verbs. Chinese people say "I go work today." and "I go work yesterday." because in chinese, work is work, whether it is yesterday, today, tomorrow. Yes, I work with a lot of chinese speakers, and the numbers seem to be increasing. If you already speak french, or spanish, the transition is somewhat easier, so those speakers pick up english quicker. In french, there are past, present and future tenses for verbs. There are also feminine and masculan verbs, and conjugation of verbs and a whole bunch of other rules that I have fogotten since high school. I can see why english would seem somewhat easy to pick up in comparison. N'est pas?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: English language globalisation
also
mocassin papoose wigwam
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
What is the large Blue slice next to "English"? It looks like quite a large % but (unless I am missing the obvious) there does not appear to be a Nationality associated to it.
A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Double Dutch
Gobbledygook
Scribble
Spoke them all myself at one time.
A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.
RE: English language globalisation
(I just wouldn't want my silence taken as agreement with the notion of English as creole.)
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: English language globalisation
I'm with you on the Romans although I wonder how much was trade/treaties as opposed to outright war.
Quan je'tais jeune ma proffser dit l'anglais est tres difficile for les autres.
(Apologies my French is somewhat rusty)
Basically all my language teachers and aids plus a number of non native English speakers I've met say English is actually quite difficult to learn for the reason that its grammar is so inconsistent and doesn't conform to the format of most languages (at least the common European ones). Obviously the slang and differences between US/UK/AUS/NZ etc is also an issue. However, it would appear others disagree.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
"Quan je'tais jeune ma proffser dit l'anglais est tres difficile for les autres.
(Apologies my French is somewhat rusty)"
Quand j'étais jeune mon professeur me disait que l'anglais est très difficile pour les autres gens.
You see...it's not so easy with all those genders, tenses and conjugations!
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
It's nothing for me to be in an outback Australian town of 200 people over 1000km away from anything resembling a city and hear the local children smack talk each other in east LA ghetto accents.
LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Leading Hand, Natural Horseman, Prickle Farmer, Crack Shot, Venerable Yogi.
RE: English language globalisation
Regular Irregular verbs:
walk walked walked (regular)
take took taken
see saw seen
cut cut cut (why not cut cutted cutten hahah)
read read read (same spelling different pronounciation)
Iregular plurals, (regular just add an s after noun)
goose geese
die dice (i thought it was dices)
man men
doe deer
fish fish (why not fishes?)
Countable and uncountable noun
so much water
so many bottles of water
so much money (why do u use much when you can count money?)
If someone is riding IN a car, how come you ride ON the bus?
so many other thing I had problems with. I think my accent and grammatical errors is just part of my personality now. If I think about it too much, I wont have confident speaking to anyone. I hope some of you can see it now how had it was to learn english. With my native language if you want to use past tense, you just have to put the time. So its very easy. All verbs are always the same. For example
I go to school yesterday. Instead of I went to school yesterday. Pretty obvious its past tense since you put yesterday.
RE: English language globalisation
Here's just one verb, "can" = "pouvoir":
pouvoir pus pouvais pusse peux puisse pourrai pourrais
pouvant pusses puisses pourras pourrais pu put pouvait pût peut pourra pourrait pûmes pouvions pussions puissions pourrons pourrions pouvons pûtes pouviez pussiez pouvons puissiez pourrez pourriez pouvez purent pouvaient pussent peuvent puissent pourront pourraient.
All verbs have a similar set of various conjugations and tenses.
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
I thought the plural of fish is fishes. Isn't it?
A doe is a female deer. These are not singular vs plural.
Okay, indonesian and chinese both say things in the past with time, eg. I go to store yesterday and buy milk.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: English language globalisation
Besides that, we would not differentiate people/things in gender during conversation, exp he/she, un/une, le/la.
No singular/plural in Chinese and Indonesian (I think) as well, exp one tree, two trees.
Languages should be simple and easy to understand. After all, it's a way of communication among human.
RE: English language globalisation
I find it hard to believe that a langage starts complex, and then simplifies over time. Some of the more controlled languages (French? Chinese?) or invented ones (written Korean?) might occasionally take a step in the direction of simplicity, but this is just a small step back against an ongoing trend.
While I'm at it, do languages come with their full set of tenses defined (say teh subjunctive), or do they come into being?
Or am I talking rubbish?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Modern pakistani urdu borrows words form arabic and english. Modern Indian Urdu borrows words from Hindi. Above chart also misses arabic, hebrew and entire African continent.
Prior to this, I set out to write the following:
It’s amazing (and amusing at times) to see Engineers playing linguists. But on the other hand they are as much part of the society as anyone else and their views are also important.
I am an engineer too. But my understanding is languages are dynamic things keeps evolving or even dying over time. They certainly did not arrive with a set of rules (only engineers can think that way- the amusement part). On the other hand there have been need to "standardize" some grammar rules (not words by themselves) and which has been done to most known or established languages to date. This after sometime this creates a notion that set of language rules are rigid and should remain so; this is where the complexity begins. These are the rules that are most prone to be broken as they should be, in my opinion. A dictionary or grammar should be no more than a reflection of evolution of the society, they are not meant to impose a set of rules for languages.
Languages should not be seen as anything more than a means to communicate. The rules should be identified only to avoid confusion. Anyone setting rules with a idea in mind they will some how be "enforced" are gravely mistaken.
One of the reasons for English being so accepted worldwide, is for its "relative" simplicity and also being dynamic and in general generous enough to accept words from different languages.
One language that was especially created by Pundits was Sanskrit (ancient Indian language), it was so ridiculously rigid that it is extinct today (for all practical purposes), in fact it was never a language of common people. However all variations of it, which are much easier and dynamic, are in use as fully developed languages or dialects in Northern Indian subcontinent. I am not sure Latin was the same way, someone can enlighten.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Girl, to amorous boy-friend: Go easy, I'm virgo intacta.
Boy: Oh, I can speak Latin, too. I'm infra dig.
RE: English language globalisation
However there is certain evolution which I feel is driven by various scietific, social and political developments happening around us all the time in history.
Ciao.
RE: English language globalisation
I think going from spanish to french, is probably easier that going from spanish to indonesian.
Learning the next languarge, and its difficulty, is probably more related to what language you already know, than the language structure itself. No?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: English language globalisation
English is the easiest to learn.
If you want to be "perfect", than probably they have all the same complexity, but for "normal" communication purposes, English is easy.
RE: English language globalisation
I learned it by the time I was three, I have never been able to learn another no matter how hard I tried!!!!!!
RE: English language globalisation
So my wife and I had always been told English is actually very difficult to learn.
She sometimes gets spanish speaking clients and just last week one came in and said english is very difficult to learn.
Obviously just one data point but until I'd seen some of the posts on this site it's what I'd always been led to believe.
Ken
RE: English language globalisation
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
"fish fish (why not fishes?)"
Both are correct for different useages.
If you are talking about a number of individuals it is fish for plural, as in " I caught three fish today.
if you are talking about different species use fishes as in "There are seven different fishes in this tank, an angel fish, a tetra, a ......."
RE: English language globalisation
I believe I addressed that in my September 11th post.
I was aware of the discussion being about relative difficulty.
I was just trying to add a data point.
RE: English language globalisation
In French the word "si" can mean...
Si = so:
Les bâtiments sont si grand. "The buildings are so big".
Si = if:
S'il vous plait. "If it pleases you".
Si = yes (in answer to a negative):
Si, je vais le faire demain. "Yes, I'll do it tomorrow".
Si = the musical note 'B':
Cette chanson est en si bémol. "That song is in B-flat".
Don
Kansas City
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
in the "United States of Europe", where we speak I don't know how many of different languages, English is getting more and more important, as a "glue" language. BUT it won't brinh to any globalisation. Because of this, I notice a sort of reaction in the European Countries (not political, in the everyday's people) to keep their own language more than before.
I'm not scared about English.
Also the globalisation will be over, as any "S logistic" curve. It will not continue like that... NO
RE: English language globalisation
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
http://sw.fcsuper.com/index.php
RE: English language globalisation
SW07-SP3.1
SW06-SP5.1
RE: English language globalisation
'If English is infectious, American must be pandemic.'
Or maybe
If English is infectious, American must be a mutation.
Kevin Hammond
Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: English language globalisation
Given that UK has had effectively Dutch & German monarchs since the American Colonies were founded perhaps that explains part of it
Also I recal learning that one of the first English Dictionaries was actually written by someone with a strong local dialect (not Queens English) hence some of the weird and wonderful spellings.
RE: English language globalisation
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: English language globalisation
Go to
http://www.americanaccent.com/
British accent is more guttural
For sounds go to
http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/speaking_clock.htm
Cheers
luis
RE: English language globalisation
The language we use doesn't affect only how we say what we think, it also affect how we think period. Accepting someone's language forces you to accept their culture, and many other things as well.
For instance, academic titles in different languages didn't match some 10 years ago. We all had engineers, masters and doctors, but a doctor from America wasn't at the same level of education as the doctor from Germany as the doctor from Romania as the doctor from Israel. Even if often same words were used, in different languages they had different meanings. Now EU is doing the bologna process to - make European academic titles compatible with English/American ones. In my country, we now have Bs and Ms and Ph.d. We used to have ing, dipl.ing, mr.sc. and dr.sc.
If Germany or Norway took over with language/economy as the US did, I'm quite sure the US would be doing the same thing to be compatible with German / Norse titles.
And so on.
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: English language globalisation
<http://www.slinkycity.com/euro-english.html>?
Ever notice if something is transported by land it's called a shipment, but if by sea it's called cargo?
RE: English language globalisation
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: English language globalisation
European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).
In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c". Sertainly, sivill servants will resieve this news with joy. Also the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typwriters kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Government will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"'s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivon vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru.
RE: English language globalisation
Ugh = I'm hungry
Ugh = lets hunt
Ugh = you're a hard worker I want you for my mate
Screech = I've got a tiger by the tail
RE: English language globalisation
http://
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: English language globalisation
I wonder how a linguist would react to this (the article does not mention what kind of research group this was). How does this tie in to similarities between Zulu and Mandarin, and how does it match other genetic similarities between Zulus and Chinese?
I am not a language specialist but my guts would tend to think one would rather go from nontonal to tonal and be able to expand vocabulary, than the other way and having to invent 18 times as many words (I am taking Vietnamese as an example which I know has 18 ways to pronounce any vowel) to keep the same vocabulary.
RE: English language globalisation
This works pretty well, up to a point.
Hg
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RE: English language globalisation
Does English language have its origin in Frisian language spoken by approximately half a million people in the Dutch province of Friesland, in nearby areas of Germany, and on a few islands in the North Sea or this has not a scientific base?
Please not bellow some similarities between Frisian and English words
Frisian: Kaai, Tsiis, Swiet, Wiet, Twa skiep
English: Key, Cheese, Sweet, Wet, Two Sheep
Cheers
luismarques
RE: English language globalisation
Ancient Britton/Celtic, Latin (from Romans, Church and second hand through French), Germanic Languages (Angles, Jutes, Saxons etc), Scandinavian (Vikings), French (Normans) plus the language of pretty much any nation that was ever part of the British Empire or that Britain traded or warred with.
So I'd say there was a good chance the words may have come from similar roots.
RE: English language globalisation
This comment raises an interesting point, which version (when does it become a dialect?) of English is most used? Like the original poster of this comment I would have naturally assumed that the American spellings were much more widely used.
However, English is the most widely used business language within the EU, and from what I've seen "UK English" is nearly always used.
Plus having recently returned from a round the world trip I was interested to notice that the British spellings are quite often used in India and Malaysia. Some of the other countries had more American influences, and there were quite a few examples that didn't bear much resemblance to any formalised spelling that I'm aware of!
This is especially surprising given Microsoft's efforts with spell checkers!
RE: English language globalisation
And their efforts with US English as the default language!
RE: English language globalisation
RE: English language globalisation
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: English language globalisation
However the fact that US Engish is being used more as a first language has little bearing on its status as a "globalised language", it merely reflects that the US has a larger population.
I would suggest that a more accurate measure of "globalisaton" would be how much the language was used in international business communications. English being the main business language of the EU (having a population of 500M, which dwarfs that of the US) might suggest that usage would be closer if you look at it this way, but a much higher percentage of EU communications would be conducted in a language other than English than US communications.
As you say, it is very tempting to reach for the trump card of a billion or so Indians but I'm certain that not the whole billion of them speak English, and I don't have any real information as to which version they speak, for all I know they could use UK spellings when communicating with the UK and vice versa!
Anyway my head hurts now, where's an economist when you need one!
RE: Australia, I have a strange thought that they were using American spellings while I was there, although I could be wrong, can anyone confirm?
RE: English language globalisation
Anyways, the U.S. population that speaks english as first is upwards well over 225, which is still well above the total Int'l english speaks as first language. As far as globalization goes, it's prolly a mixed bag (as the example above shows).
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: English language globalisation
Answer: Princess Diana's death.
Question: How come?
Answer:
An English princess with
an Egyptian boyfriend
crashes in a French tunnel,
driving a German car
with a Dutch engine,
driven by a Belgian
who was drunk on Scottish whisky,
(check the bottle before you change the spelling),
followed closely by Italian Paparazzi,
on Japanese motorcycles;
treated by an American doctor,
using Brazilian medicines.
This email was sent to me by a Canadian,
using Bill Gate's American technology,
and you're probably reading this on your computer, that uses Taiwanese chips,
and a Korean monitor,
assembled by Bangladeshi workers
in a Singapore plant,
transported by Indian lorry-drivers,
hijacked by Indonesians,
unloaded by Sicilian longshoremen,
and trucked to you by Mexican illegals.....
That, my friends, is Globalization!
GMWindow
“Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare.”
RE: English language globalisation
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