Dyno room exhaust setup question
Dyno room exhaust setup question
(OP)
I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I'm setting up an exhaust system for an engine dyno room and have questions. Here's what I have:
1. Room purpose - dynoing 4-cycle gas car engines, anything from 4 cyl to V8s, up to 1000HP or so, both blown and NA. No sustained durability tests, just quick ramp to redline pulls and some brief steady state at various rpms/loads for calibrating the engine.
2. We have residential neighbors within oh, 100 yards
3. The dyno room walls are poured 8" concrete
4. Room has conventional 10' drywall ceiling (hanging on resilant channel to avoid transmitting sound directly to trusses)with asphalt shingles outside.
5. We have (2) Nelson 300 dyno silencers (mufflers) 12" opening, side in, end out, about 30" in diameter, 112" tall rated 25-35 dB of silencing depending on frequency. http://westernfilterco.com/critical_300.html
Why 2 and why these particular mufflers? We found them on eBay and they were a good deal.
Our main goal is to operate the dyno as quietly as possible to keep the neighbors happy. Preferably, we'd rather that they not even know we're running a engine. I'll point the chimneys straight up.
My plan is to keep the mufflers inside to keep even more of the noise inside the concrete walls, stand the muffler on end and run a chimney through the ceiling/roof. The mufflers themselves should get plenty warm, but I think the room fans circulating the air 10x/min should be able to suck the heat out of the room sufficiently. How warm they'll get I don't know - anyone have any input on this?
Questions:
1. Since I have 2 of these mufflers, I might as well use both. Should I use them independently and run 2 chimneys? That is, give each bank of the engine it's own muffler?
What are the pros & cons of this setup? Will the muffler be too big for just a single bank (4 cyl at most) and not provide enough silencing? I ask this because of a statement from another dyno muffler's website:
"If the silencer is much too large, then the exhaust noise simply passes through using only the initial large expansion for attenuation."
- quote from
http://ww w.eiwillia ms.com/ste el/index.p hp?p=Engin eSilencers
My understanding is that if the muffler is too big for the volume of exhaust input, the baffling inside isn't very effective and the muffler essentially becomes a large unbaffled chamber - is this correct?
2. Or should I put the 2 mufflers in series (I can easily do this by standing one up and laying one on its side and running its end output into the side input of the other.)
Will this provide more silencing? I realize this may increase the backpressure, but these mufflers are so large already, I'm thinking the increase in backpressure will be pretty small, but I'm no expert on this (which is why I'm asking these questions here!)
3. Question about exhaust temps. At the header, temps will be in the 1400-1600 *F range, but the muffler is a huge heat sink, so what are realistic temps at the chimney? How much lower?
4. Outlet sizing: My understanding is that the outlet should be smaller than the inlet for good sound attenuation. Both openings on my mufflers are 12". This probably already is overkill for the engines I'll be typically running, but just in case I get a blown big block or diesel I guess I'll be ready. I assume with the exhaust gases cooling, they'll have less volume and a smaller outlet pipe/chimney is ok and won't increase backpressure? Ideally, what size should my outlet & chimney be?
5. Another reason for wanting an 8" chimney is cost. A 12" double wall chimney stack is pretty expensive and custom while 8" double wall chimneys made for wood stoves and such are readily available. Would a double wall chimney rated for wood stoves and furnaces be ok to use?
After I get through the roof, the exhaust gases should have cooled even more, could I even adapt down to 6" for more attenuation or will this create too much backpressure? The reason for this is I'll need a raincap, and 6" is about the largest that are readily available, anything larger is custom again.
Thanks for any help. I think I've given all the info I can, but ask if I've left anything out.
1. Room purpose - dynoing 4-cycle gas car engines, anything from 4 cyl to V8s, up to 1000HP or so, both blown and NA. No sustained durability tests, just quick ramp to redline pulls and some brief steady state at various rpms/loads for calibrating the engine.
2. We have residential neighbors within oh, 100 yards
3. The dyno room walls are poured 8" concrete
4. Room has conventional 10' drywall ceiling (hanging on resilant channel to avoid transmitting sound directly to trusses)with asphalt shingles outside.
5. We have (2) Nelson 300 dyno silencers (mufflers) 12" opening, side in, end out, about 30" in diameter, 112" tall rated 25-35 dB of silencing depending on frequency. http://westernfilterco.com/critical_300.html
Why 2 and why these particular mufflers? We found them on eBay and they were a good deal.
Our main goal is to operate the dyno as quietly as possible to keep the neighbors happy. Preferably, we'd rather that they not even know we're running a engine. I'll point the chimneys straight up.
My plan is to keep the mufflers inside to keep even more of the noise inside the concrete walls, stand the muffler on end and run a chimney through the ceiling/roof. The mufflers themselves should get plenty warm, but I think the room fans circulating the air 10x/min should be able to suck the heat out of the room sufficiently. How warm they'll get I don't know - anyone have any input on this?
Questions:
1. Since I have 2 of these mufflers, I might as well use both. Should I use them independently and run 2 chimneys? That is, give each bank of the engine it's own muffler?
What are the pros & cons of this setup? Will the muffler be too big for just a single bank (4 cyl at most) and not provide enough silencing? I ask this because of a statement from another dyno muffler's website:
"If the silencer is much too large, then the exhaust noise simply passes through using only the initial large expansion for attenuation."
- quote from
http://ww
My understanding is that if the muffler is too big for the volume of exhaust input, the baffling inside isn't very effective and the muffler essentially becomes a large unbaffled chamber - is this correct?
2. Or should I put the 2 mufflers in series (I can easily do this by standing one up and laying one on its side and running its end output into the side input of the other.)
Will this provide more silencing? I realize this may increase the backpressure, but these mufflers are so large already, I'm thinking the increase in backpressure will be pretty small, but I'm no expert on this (which is why I'm asking these questions here!)
3. Question about exhaust temps. At the header, temps will be in the 1400-1600 *F range, but the muffler is a huge heat sink, so what are realistic temps at the chimney? How much lower?
4. Outlet sizing: My understanding is that the outlet should be smaller than the inlet for good sound attenuation. Both openings on my mufflers are 12". This probably already is overkill for the engines I'll be typically running, but just in case I get a blown big block or diesel I guess I'll be ready. I assume with the exhaust gases cooling, they'll have less volume and a smaller outlet pipe/chimney is ok and won't increase backpressure? Ideally, what size should my outlet & chimney be?
5. Another reason for wanting an 8" chimney is cost. A 12" double wall chimney stack is pretty expensive and custom while 8" double wall chimneys made for wood stoves and such are readily available. Would a double wall chimney rated for wood stoves and furnaces be ok to use?
After I get through the roof, the exhaust gases should have cooled even more, could I even adapt down to 6" for more attenuation or will this create too much backpressure? The reason for this is I'll need a raincap, and 6" is about the largest that are readily available, anything larger is custom again.
Thanks for any help. I think I've given all the info I can, but ask if I've left anything out.





RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
http://w
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
One test facility I visit frequently has about 50 single cylinder lubrication study engines. Every once in a while they all fall in syncopation and it sounds like a helicopter hovering about 30 feet overhead. Wait about 5 minutes and its eerily quiet!
Franz
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RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
I just helped install a dyno for performance automotive V8 testing. I do not have technical data but here is what we did and the results. Sprint car headers into 4" galvanized flex pipe about 4' long. These ran into a heavy (1/4") wall pipe about 8" in diameter. The pipe was about 10' long running horizontally out through the wall. It connected to what looked like a giant glasspack muffler. 8" id, 16" od, 6' long. Inside was expanded metal and some type of packing. The test mule engine was a 400 hp SBC. Standing at the muffler outlet it sounded like a small aircompressor running. Very quiet. The galv. melted for the first couple of feet on the flex pipe but the heavy 8" pipe did not seem to get excessively hot. I can ask them to check the temp after a run if it would be of interest. Ken
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
8" pipe sounds ample.
fueliefan, you need to talk a consultant, or at least start your own thread.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
MWPC - thanks for giving me some details about your setup. I'd be interested to know how hot the exhaust in the 8" pipe is. How long/hard was the engine ran? is this 8" pipe before the muffler? When you say the galvanized melted, are you saying the flex pipe was still usuable and just the coating melted, or that it ruined the pipe? Where's a source where I can buy this flex pipe?
It sounds like the mufflers I have will be more than enough to attenuate the noise to a very acceptable level, so is it overkill to mount these mufflers inside? What about using both - overkill and not worth the trouble, using them seperately per bank, or tied in series?
Sounds like an 8" chimney is the way to go. I think the eiwilliams quote about mufflers being "too big" is saying that the baffling will be essentially a don't care and the muffler will just look like a large expansion chamber if the muffler is grossly oversized. I can kind of picture this - if for example we ran a 5HP lawnmower engine into one of these baffled mufflers, and another similar engine into an unbaffled expansion chamber the same size as this muffler, the output noise will probably be the same. They're implying that a correctly sized smaller baffled muffler would be more effective in attenuating noise in this example. Or am I not understanding this eiwilliams quote correctly?
thanks for reminding me about ULF noise. What can one do to minimize this? No muffler will minimize ULF will it?
I'm not sure I understand the first response's comment
"Aim the pipe the exhaust as it will be installed in the car into the inlet of an exhaust evacuation inlet. There are several tubeaxial blowers out there that will suffice, just make sure they flow at least 4x the exh volume to dilute the gas temps."
Where's the muffler in this system, and how large must it be if we're mixing in 4x ambient air? A formula I've run across to estimate exhaust volume is 2.4 times the intake volume. Thus if we estimate a max intake volume of 1000 CFM, exhaust volume will be 2400 CFM, and 4x that to dilute with enough ambient air is almost 10,000 CFM. I don't see many axial blowers this large.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Placing mufflers in series will definitely result in cumulative noise attenuation, and also cumulative back pressure. Some back pressure after the muffler is definitely required to attenuate the lower and fundamental frequencies effectively.
What you require is some sort of flap on the system outlet to hold a small amount of fixed back pressure, fairly independant of flow volume. The reduced sound exit area will definitely hold in a lot of the noise. Something along the lines of the standard rain cap fitted to the vertical exhaust stacks of diesel trucks suitably weighted, should do the trick. It absolutely must not flutter, but with a suitably high (but balanced) total mass, flutter would be unlikely.
If the additional imposed back pressure is objectionable, I see no reason why a centrifugal air blower could not be added to make up for this. I once watched a film clip of a Formula One engine on an engine dyno where the exhaust collectors fed straight into the open intake of a massive air blower, so that idea is not original.
I have also been thinking how to build myself a suitable muffler system. This is one area where size IS important! The most practical idea I have been able to come up with so far, is to buy a fairly long length of concrete storm water pipe perhaps two feet in inside diameter. This can be filled with old automobile tyres over it's entire length, maybe twenty to forty feet or more, and buried under the garden.
At suitable odd distances heavy baffle plate flame cut from 1/4 inch steel plate with a central hole and pipe stub, would split the pipe length into multiple chambers. These baffles could be packed between sections of old tyres inserted down the concrete pipe. The individual chambers should all be made very different odd non related volumes to spread any possible system resonances.
For even better high frequency attenuation, these old tyres could each be stuffed with fibreglass insulation.
I have not tried any of this yet myself, but I believe twenty to forty feet of buried concrete pipe with perhaps a hundred old (free) bald tyres, and some heavy baffles should have a pretty high acoustic attenuation over a very wide frequency range. Especially if the outlet is fitted with a variable restriction.
Just like to again stress here guys, these are only ideas, and have not yet been put into practice.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
The butterfly is about as crude as you can imagine.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
We dug a hole and kept it all below ground level and dumped exhaust into a long rubber hose which lay in a trench that was covered by heavily leaved tree branches.
I know, it is at a different scale re power output, but we had a very strong motive to not disturb the neighbours.
In my opinion, that experience adds weight to at least some of warpspeed's suggestions re buried concrete pipe idea. I think the baffles are not required, but a blocked end and lots of small holes facing down could work along with a heavy but porous covering. Gravel comes to mind.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
That is the sort of thing you need for your dyno. Someone yards away making real horsepower, and almost silent.
The clue here is sound absorbtion through friction. In mufflers fibreglass or steel wool seems to work well at the higher frequencies. But chambers in series with small apertures between (baffles) would seem to be much more effective at mid and low frequencies.
Rubber has a fair bit of hysteresis, it turns rapid motion into heat fairly effectively and so is quite good for sound absorbtion. Old tyres would make great muffler stuffers, free too and almost indestructable!
Check out the design of the Nelson muffler mentioned in the original post. It not only has chambers in series, but they are coupled with tube stubs, to add pipe friction between chambers. A lot of thought and testing has obviously gone into it.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Franz
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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Franzh - thanks again for reminding us about all the other noise considerations besides the exhaust. I've 8" poured concrete walls, concrete floor, no windows, the roof is conventional with shingles, 6" rolled batt fiberglass insulation on the attic floor, and the ceiling is 1/2" drywall mounted on resilent channel to avoid attaching the drywall directly to the trusses so as to not transmit as much noise. For room air circulation, my fan doesn't blow outside, it blows into my shop area. This is done to avoid having a large hole in my ceiling/wall that noise could escape out of. I think I've covered everything - is there anything I can do differently? I haven't put in the door. Obviously, the heavier the better, but I'm trying to do this on a budget - any advice on making a cheap yet heavy door that seals? My other concern is my air inlet to the room - I haven't figured this out yet, I was thinking a large vent above the door, but wouldn't this be just a big gaping hole for noise to escape? What do people do to keep noise from escaping through their air inlet?
Warpspeed - I sympathize with your situation. Besides the 2 dyno exhaust manufacturers I've already mentioned, (eiwilliams & Nelson), Maxim Silencers is a 3rd maker an they have a nifty sizing program you can download from their site. Links are:
http://www.maximsilencers.com/
http://westernfilterco.com/critical_300.html
http://ww
I've heard from other dyno owners of a guy who used some 55 gal drums, filled them with old car tires, and welded a few together in series. I've been told these worked very well. I don't know how many in series, and how they were attached (i.e. if he used some smaller diameter pipe, effectively creating different size expansion chambers tied together). So your idea of using old car tires has merit. I can try to find more info or get you the guys name if you want.
What will you do about noise escaping out your ventilation system? You'll need large openings for airflow to cool the car. You also say this is a chassis dyno, so there will be tire friction noise with the rollers, which is considerable, but high freq. Also, how will you couple your exhaust system to the vehicle - if you slip on hose over the tailpipe, won't a lot of noise escape from that coupling? I've a bit of experience with this as I have an operating chassis dyno. I picked put a medium sized Maxim Silencers M31 (I believe - it's been awhile) from an industial auction. I modified an old welding cart and attached this muffler on it. I use flexible rubber dyno hose and attach it over the tailpipes of the vehicles (they already have mufflers of some sort on them) I'm dynoing on the chassis dyno to keep it quieter for the neighbors. I've no measurements, but there is a noticeable decrease in exhaust noise, but I believe a lot still escapes at the primitive coupling to the tailpipe. If you have questions about my experience with chassis dyno noise just ask.
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From your post, it sounds like a reduced sound exit area is very important for noise control. So dropping the 12" outlet to 8" or even 6" is a good idea, right? Why must the raincap not flutter? Obviously, I'm trying to minimize backpressure. I'm assuming with very large muffler volume, choking down the outlet like this doesn't affect backpressure as much?
Hypothetically, if a muffler provides 25dB of noise reduction at a certain freq and 1" H20 of backpressure, if you put 2 in series (at the same operating conditions), this doesn't simply translate to 50dB noise reduction and 2" H20 backpressure does it? It can't be that linear, can anyone give some ballpark estimate of what happens when you put 2 mufflers in series?
Well, gotta go - kids are yelling for me.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
The problem is that the anoyance level of the noise is not always directly related to the direct measured sound pressure level. It is easy enough to get rid of the harsh bark and crackle of an open exhaust port with some fairly simple acoustic absorbtion. The first muffler always gives the largest subjective improvement because it directly changes the character of the sound. It gets rid of the harshness and knocks the edges off the explosive shock waves. The second muffler will certainly reduce the measured sound pressure level further, but it will not subjectively seem to have as large an improvement as the first muffler.
That is why muffler design is so very important. It is the lower frequencies that will be most difficult to atenuate without introducing some deliberate additional back pressure at the exit end of the system. Some experimentation will be required, but fortunately it will be an easily accessible place to change things.
I have also heard about the success of 55 gallon drums filled with tyres used as short duration dyno mufflers. But suspect the wall thickness of the drum may be insufficient to prevent the drum itself from radiating quite a lot of sound. Buried 55 gallon drums in series would be much better, but they would probably rust away fairly quickly. I then thought of a long brick pit divided off into several sections and filled with tyres, that idea has progressed to using round concrete storm water pipe with suitable baffles placed at intervals.
It may even be possible to divert the silenced exhaust down into a large stormwater drain if you have one available. I now do this with my airflow bench. It now runs about as silently as a window airconditioner once all the exhaust air roar dissapears underground into the suburban stormwater drain system. My neighbours even complained about my airflow bench to begin with, but then, it was rather loud.
As my proposed future chassis dyno will be in a faily spacious open underground workshop/garage area, the fresh air ventilation system is the next part to plan. The first step will be to absorb as much noise inside the immediate dyno space as possible by fixing sound absorbant material to the walls and ceiling. The idea is to completely kill the natural reflective echo. Even heavy lead weighted curtains (don't laugh) or floor to ceiling sound absorber panels on wheels could be placed around the vehicle to deaden the acoustics. Maybe I can buy a pile of old office divider panels cheap, something like that perhaps. Turn the whole underground dyno area itself into a giant absorbtion muffler.
A very large volume of forced external fresh air ventilaton will be required, and provided the entering air and exhaust air travel down reasonably long lengths of duct that has an acoustic lining, not much sound should hopefully escape to the outside of the building.
The main vehicle entry door is going to be my biggest sound leakage path. I still have no real idea how to solve that.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Any truck and trailer type parts shop should have the flex pipe. We used galvanized due to lower cost. It is also available in stainless steel. The 4" flex pipes dumped into the 8" heavy wall pipe. The other end of the heavy pipe was bolted to the one 8" i.d. glasspack. They had another muffler of the same size but it seemed pointless to install it. I have not talked to them on the temperature rise. I will ask next time I am there.
Ken
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Two mufflers? In series, they will work well together. In parallel, you'll have half the volume of gases (at the same noise level) going thru each one...so you'll end up with two noisy mufflers! Nothing much accomplished! A tip: using a length or 14 gauge mild steel the same width as the ID of the muffler inner pipe...and by clamping one end in a vise, pulling on the other end with a come-a-long or similar tension device, twist it 380 degrees (a helix). then slip this in the perforated bore of the muffler...tackwelding on one end only(allowing for expansion). This muffler mod will surprise you! Zero restriction to flow...and very quieting!
Regarding mounting the muffler(s) inside the room...DON'T! They get hot! These "heaters" will drive you out! Plus, when they leak...you will die! Put 'em outside! BT DT! -whitevette
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
An oem contact sent me this link. http://www.cincinnatifan.com/centrifugal-spb.htm
They run GM LS2 and other stuff at full load for extended intervals with one of these fans with a single stage large dia attenuator inline. Standing outside of the boom room it is not objectionably noisy for a lab environment.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Warpspeed & MWPC, I understand the diminishing returns in sound attenuation as you add mufflers in series. From MWPC's experience it sounds like it may not be worth the trouble of using both. Muffler design is complex, in my case I've the luxury of using commercially available mufflers that I assume were designed correctly by qualified engineers instead of designing my own!
I am curious about the temperature inside the muffler. Obviously, if people are successful stuffing old tires inside barrels for homemade mufflers, the exhaust temps must cool really quickly. I don't know what the flash point of rubber is, but to even consider using them inside a muffler tells me the temp inside must not be much over 200 or so degrees F? Over 250 degs F and you'll smell baking rubber won't you? I'm assuming the mufflers will probably be within 10-15 feet of the header collector, that would seem fairly typical, can exhaust really cool that quickly from about 1500 deg F at the port?
I agree that putting things underground and turning your room into a large absorbtion chamber will really help. I see your point about long ductwork for inlet and exhaust air minimizing radiated noise. Can you elaborate on what you mean by acoustic lining for the ductwork? How's that lining take the exhaust heat? Again, this brings up my question of how fast the exhaust gases cool.
My experience with my chassis dyno is that superchargers and the roller/tire contact create a lot of high frequency noise, which is louder than the exhaust because our test vehicles all have street legal mufflers and then I attach the Maxim M31 silencer to the tailpipes, which helps a lot.
I've worked in million dollar NVH quiet rooms which had ceilings and walls covered with acoustic material. The garage entry are expensive doors that open in layered panels, each panel is about 2-3" thick and heavy - they didn't open overhead like a conventional residential garage door would, each is on a seperate track that stacks one in front (or behind) the other. They have a rolling panel of acoustic material which was placed in front of the garage entry door, effectively making it as any other wall. The material appeared to be batts of fiberglass insulation folded and stuffed into wire mesh structures (wire fencing with 1/2" square holes) shaped into a 3-dimensional isosceles triangles, the equal sides being about 18" long (i.e. they protrude out of the wall about 18"),the base being about 8", stretched out about 16-18". These were arranged in groups of 4, then these groups of 4 were placed perpendicular to each other on the wall (a square of 4 running left to right, placed adjacent to one running up and down, etc.) I'm sure there are more complete and technical plans available, this is just what I observed. If you've ever worked in one of these rooms, they're totally silent, absolutely no reflected sound, it's hard to hear people talk. Hope this helps with your room.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
From your post, it sounds like a reduced sound exit area is very important for noise control. So dropping the 12" outlet to 8" or even 6" is a good idea, right? Why must the raincap not flutter? Obviously, I'm trying to minimize backpressure. I'm assuming with very large muffler volume, choking down the outlet like this doesn't affect backpressure as much?
Again, I assume the answer has to do with how much and how fast the exhaust gas cools?
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Why does half the volume make the mufflers noisy? Does this imply that when I run a 4 cyl into my exhaust system (assume I use 1 muffler) it'll be noiser than a V8 at double the displacement?
I was also concerned about exhaust leaks and heat, but I'm assuming my ventilation fans will be able to cycle enough air to eliminate those concerns. I've worked in commercial dyno cells that had mufflers inside, but they fed into some elaborate ventilation system that I believe had additional fans helping to draw exhaust out.
This brings up turbocohen's response about using fans and no mufflers, as the fans will attenuate noise via dilution and breaking up standing waves and pulsations. I see how that can work, but I wonder if the dB of noise reduction is enough for my purposes of keeping the neighbors happy. I can see it being enough for a lab or pure industial environment.
You state: "They run GM LS2 and other stuff at full load for extended intervals with one of these fans with a single stage large dia attenuator inline."
Is this single state large diameter attenuator essentially a muffler like I have? Are you suggesting combining a fan with this muffler? Is the fan before or after the muffler?
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Those commercially designed mufflers look excellent because they have maximum attenuation located around 100Hz which is in the general region of the very strong fundamental firing frequency of many stationary engines. They should work extremely well on a dyno, and as you already have a pair, I would connect them in series.
Temperature rise will have a lot to do with dyno running time. A stationary diesel running near full load for may hours on end will be a rather different proposition to short bursts on a typical engine tuning dyno. Diluting the exhaust with plenty of fresh air by using a suitably powerful exhaust extraction blower will make a huge difference to muffler temperatures. The system will cool down rapidly between dyno bursts.
Expect an exaust flow from the engine of around 2.2 CFM per horsepower. From that you can size the blower to flow sufficient extra air against the back pressure of the total exaust system. In theory, this blower can be placed anywhere along the exhaust system. More on that later.
Rubber tyres can stand a fair bit of heat, and short of actually catching fire, should work fine. Even if the tyres do deteriorate over time, they are never going to see the road again, so it probably does not matter. They should also be fairly resistant to acidic condensation in the exhaust.
Most standard rectangular metal airconditioning ductwork installed in commercial buildings has an acoustic lining. This is usually fibreglass wool packed behind a perforated metal liner. The whole air duct is constructed in the manner of a large rectangular fibreglass absorbtion muffler. It may be possible to salvage some straight lengths with bolted and flanged ends from a building demolition site. A box of beer to the site foreman should do it! If fresh entering air into the dyno room, and dyno room exhaust air go through suitably long sections of lined ductwork, it will be very effective at noise attenuation outside the building.
Direct higher frequency mechanical noise from the tyres and the general machinery will be less trouble to attenuate than the powerful low frequency fundamental exhaust noise. The only other expected problem might be rumble transmitted through the ground. Rubber mounting of the dyno frame might be worth a thought.
The only "quiet room" technology that I am familiar with are radio and TV studios. These have exactly the opposite problem of keeping traffic noise out. One TV station I worked at for many years (ABV2 in Melbourne) has a suburban rail line going right past one wall of a TV studio, just over the fence. A tain goes past every few minutes during the day. The whole studio is a building within another building, and the inner building is isolated on rubber mounts.
Thanks for the advice on the sound proof door construction, that is extremely helpful. I will go back to that TV studio and take a much closer look at how they built the larger doors. They have dual massive barn sized sliding sound proof doors at the rear for moving studio sets and scenery, but I cannot now remember how they were constructed.
I agree that the most effective low cost sound absorbent treatment for walls and ceilings would be ordinary fibreglass wool batts held in place with fine steel mesh (chicken wire). Sound studios are built exactly like that, but the ugly fibreglass is hidden behind very expensive looking spaced slim polished wooden battens.
I know exactly what you mean about these quiet rooms being absolutely silent and it being difficult to hear people talk. It is a really strange experience. There is something really odd about total silence that most people find rather disturbing.
Now we come back to exhaust systems, and the theory about back pressure and reduced exit area.
Individual exhaust pulses can have steeply rising wave fronts that contain a lot of very harsh objectionable harmonic energy. Getting rid of the worst of the higher frequency harmonics with an absorbtion muffler system is not terribly difficult. But it is the violent low frequency pulsing that is much more difficult if not impossible to eliminate, without adding back pressure.
Question ? How do you turn a violently pulsing gas flow into a perfectly steady flow ? That is what you must really try to do to acceptably reduce the low frequency sound amplitude.
The only practical way is to allow your pulses to expand into a sufficiently large open volume, and then restrict the outlet area in such a way that the outlet is then forced into almost steady flow.
Restricting the outlet can be either a simple step reduction of pipe size, or it can be an active variable flow control device, rather like a throttle butterfly or weighted flap. The design problem is that engine exhaust volume is going to vary over a wide range, and ideally so must the outlet restriction adjust to compensate. It is really the pressure drop at this point that holds back the noise while it beats itself to death inside the expansion chamber.
Some Ferrari and Lamborghini models have exhaust butterflies so their cars sound civilized at small throttle openings. This is not a new idea.
As to flow control device flutter. It can CREATE massive noise all by itself, by modulating the escape of the higher pressure exhaust gas from the expansion chamber. If the flow control device can build up to a self resonant flutter, the noise it can generate is horrific !! So the respone of any variable area flow control device needs to be slow and heavily damped to prevent any flutter from developing.
Another better approach is to keep the flow through the whole exhaust system artificially high with an air blower. Then design the outlet restrictor to suit the much higher blower volume. The blower will more than make up for the deliberate pressure drop that you are going to require in order to achieve a sufficient sound attenuation.
In an earlier post, Turbocohen suggested that injecting fresh air into the exhast stream with the aid a blower dilutes the noise, and that is a rather neat way to express it. It would potentially lower exhaust gas temperature too, and that would offer a few advantages, particularly in mid summer heat in your dyno room.
My own future plans are to install a powerful centrifugal high pressure air blower (0.5 psi?) feeding exhaust plus fresh air into a long baffled underground chamber. This chamber will be filled with old tyres stuffed with fibreglass batts. It will have a tall and deliberately restrictive exhaust stack at the exit. The blower will be run fast enough to create a significant pressure rise within the underground chamber, to allow a suitablly high pressure drop across the exit stack. The higher the design pressure drop, the greater the total sound attenuation will be.
Obviously the exhaust from the vehicle feeding the blower intake will see none of this deliberate back pressure.
As a matter of interest required blower power, (assuming a 100% efficient blower) will be roughly psi x CFM divided by 300. Typical blower efficiencies might be in the region of 30% to 50%, so you will require two to three times the drive Hp calculated from the formula.
So as a design example 0.5psi at 2,000 Cfm works out to 3.3Hp, but a practical drive motor may end up being in the 7Hp to 10Hp range. Not exactly small.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
It sounds like ideally I should add a large blower to the system and dilute the exhaust with fresh air. I assume it would be better to put the blower after the muffler so it's not subjected to such intense heat, but does it matter to the blower if it's sucking through the muffler restriction or blowing through it? A blower is more efficient one way vs the other isn't it? Which side do you intend on placing your blower?
With a blower added to the system, instead of directly coupling my 3" or 4" flex pipe from the exhaust headers and tightly sealing them to either the muffler or blower opening, I'd probably have a large, say 12" opening and just stick my flex pipes into this opening and let a lot of ambient room air get drawn in with it. Wouldn't this setup allow a lot of exhaust noise to spill into the room? Or with a sufficient blower, and if I stick my flexpipe deep enough into the 12" hole, no noise would escape back into the room? Is this how you intend to make your room exhaust ports?
Regarding the quiet room I've worked in, it was a major OEM facility (one of the US big 3). The vehicle was run on a chassis roll - we weren't interested in logging power, we were simply using them to simulate road load and using the room to isolate an engine noise. I took a close look at the sound insulation out of interest. I believe that NVH engineers typically would use the room for their work. The entry doors were a major, expensive commercial door where the panels, when open, didn't slide on a track from vertical to horizontal overhead like a typical residential garage door would. These panels stayed vertical and stacked one in front of the other at the top of the track(s) - each panel was on it's own track. I think the the thing for you to do from a cost standpoint would be to have a rolling accoustic panel of insulation wool formed from chicken wire in the design I described previously to place in front of your door and effectively make it just another wall. This was done in this room as well.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Another possibility would be two quite separate blowers feeding the main pressurised muffler system. One just raises the exhaust pressure to the desired muffler pressure, and the other does the same thing with fresh air. The exhaust connection to the engine could then probably be completely sealed, and the exhaust blower run from a VFD to maintain atmospheric pressure measured at the engine exhaust exit point. Many VFDs have an internal PID controller, and all it would need would be a MAP sensor hooked up to the VFD. The fresh air blower could be arranged to have some additional muffling in series to prevent noise from escaping from the fresh air intake. Lots of possibilities here, and all relatively easy to try.
As far as a large sound proof entry door goes, something like a heavy fire door, or pair of doors on rails that can be hermeticaly sealed around the edges. My first thought would be a big hollow rubber gasket (tube) that could be inflated with compressed air, after the door had been firmly clamped to the wall somehow. And then as you suggest, a sound absorption lining on the inside. Sheet lead should make a fairly effective sound barrier without being too bulky.
I would like to stress that I have not yet put any of this into practice yet, but am still at the planning, thinking, research stage.
Fortunately I already have a Bruel and Kjaer sound level meter and an audio spectrum analyser, and for my calibrated sound source (hehehe) a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine either muffled or unmuffled. I can kick up a fair racket while testing things without the neighbours suspecting what I am really doing. That is the grand plan...
I believe my neighbours will not complain provided the sound level is kept low enough, and test sessions are kept short and at appropriate times of the day. If all the problems are tackled one at a time in a systematic way, It should be possible to construct a relatively quiet suburban dyno.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Thrasher, to answer your earlier question, the extractor fan inlet is supplied from about 60 feet of 4" rigid pipe collecting gas from what is presumed to be parrallel GM truck mufflers. The dyno engine dumps into a common collector with a cone leading to the muffs with flex pipe. Nothing sophisticated, muffs presumably hacked from a salvaged test mule, quiet enough.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Warpspeed said:
"Wherever I have seen exhaust extraction blowers used with dynos, the exhaust just pokes into the vicinity of immediate blower intake funnel. The general idea being that the open tuned exhaust collector end still sees free open atmospheric pressure."
I see how this would be best for accurate dyno measurements as the exhaust output isn't under negative pressure. But how does this affect noise levels? Does any noise bleed into the room significantly? My idea of feeding the exhaust in slightly downstream of a fresh air entry duct to reduce noise is entirely for noise control, but I can see how it would skew the dyno results by helping to suck the exhaust out.
Turbocohen - my understanding from your description is that the 2 sides of the engine's exhaust headers dump into a common collector, and this collector has 2 parallel outputs leading to 2 production pickup truck mufflers via flex pipe, and a blower is present after these 2 mufflers. Since this setup is using 2 production truck mufflers, they would have fairly significant backpressure wouldn't they? Is any ambient air being mixed with this exhaust, being sucked in by the blower? If so, isn't the flow volume much greater than what these mufflers were designed for? Also, wouldn't the main reason this setup is fairly quiet be due to the use of these production mufflers? I would guess it'd be no louder than a production pickup truck, but the backpressure would be almost as high as well, even with the blower?
Note I'm not questioning or doubting your observations, just questioning if my understanding of sound attenuation and backpressure is correct, and trying to understand why I need large expensive dyno mufflers if production vehicle mufflers coupled with a fan are indeed sufficient.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
The dyno test cell itself would have been designed to contain most of the noise. None of that is really applicable to a chassis dyno, or what we are trying to achieve here. Except for the basic concept of diluting the exhaust with fresh air, and using a blower to offset deliberate silencer back pressure.
I am still fairly certain that if you were to use a very large stationary diesel muffler on a much smaller capacity engine, there may be insufficient flow volume for the muffler to develop its full rated acoustic attenuation, particularly at the lower frequencies.
In about the sixth post here, Greg Locock mentioned using one of those monster dyno mufflers, and the requirement to adjust the back pressure to the correct figure with an exhaust butterfly. That chimes very well with my own testing and exerience.
A couple of posts in this thread have been deleted. A new poster popped up and made it very clear he was representing a commercial muffler company. A cardinal sin.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
Also salesmen and direct commercial promotion are specifically banned. Maybe cone 1 crossed that boundary.
Regards
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RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
The engines were isolated with thick rubber pads and the steel leveling plates were 6" thick, 10 feet long, 4 feet wide, but still, a lot of noise was transferred.
Franz
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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
By treating the project as a normal NVH project, and applying the usual philosophies, the engineer who designed it succeeded. He spaced semi porous tiles about 3 feet away from the walls, to create 1/4 wave absorbers. The engine is mounted on the cradle via normal engine mounts, and some care is taken to suspend the bits that vibrate, properly.
The guys in the labs say it is a much nicer cell to work in than the others, even when they aren't doing noise work.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Dyno room exhaust setup question
One concept to keep in mind.
Reflection is excellent for keeping noise OUT of a structure. For example, to keep traffic noise out of your home, smooth hard external surfaces and double glazing would effectively reflect most of the sound back into free space.
Preventing sound from escaping from within a noisy dyno cell requires internal absorbtion. Every time a sound echoes off a wall a little bit escapes through the wall. The greater the number of reverberations, the more sound escapes through the wall. Standing waves and resonances can build up in amplitude to the point where significant energy will pass through almost any practical structure. An internal sound absorbtion lining will rapidly dissipate that acoustic energy, and give the mass of the wall a fighting chance to attenuate what is left.