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Too much free advice
8

Too much free advice

Too much free advice

(OP)
Guys,

I have been noticing several threads recently where folks with no formal engineering training have posted questions.  For a time, earlier this year, I noticed most of these were answered, "You need to hire a structural engineer."  I think this is the correct thing to do in most cases.  I worry that we may provide very acurate advice that is inappropriately applied resulting in an accident.  I don't want to provide specific descriptions of the threads because I don't want to cause embarrassment, but I think we need to consider our audience before responding to some questions.

RE: Too much free advice

Dinosaur,

Eng-Tips is a site intended only for "engineering professionals" (see the upper left hand corner of the site under the logo).

As such, if you see any posts that are obviously from a non-engineer / novice / student, simply red flag it and the Eng-Tips management will review it.

RE: Too much free advice

Great point!  I agree 100% with you.  In my experiences, I have found that people that aren't trained in a certain area or who are not engineers tend to greatly simplify things and assume that one or two forumulas will answer everything.

RE: Too much free advice

Agree, but I find it difficult to review their credentials.

There is another problem, for example, electrical engineers asking complex piping questions, etc. and also with very inexperienced engineers asking "risky" questions here that they should obviously be asking their supervisors.  What to do?  Not enough specialized engineering talent to go around, or is specialization and experience too expensive these days?

It appears like there is far too much inexperience out there that penetrates deeply into the supervision and management level as well.  Or these people don't like asking the right questions to their supervisors.

   Going the Big Inch! worm
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: Too much free advice

Dinosaur, what would you suggest? Even if people reveal their credentials, they could be lying or distorting their proficiency level. It's difficult to control someone's naiveity; non engineers or many young engineers are unaware of the depth of their ignorance. I have even discovered much to my surprise experienced engineers that don't seem to have any idea they don't know as much as they think they know.

I wonder, how did you figure out the question askers were "...folks with no formal engineering training have posted questions."?

RE: Too much free advice

2
In my opinion it is a lot harder to even attempt to judge someones level of competency when their member profile has not been completed.  

I would like to think that as a Professional Engineer, someone who works to a code of ethics, an individual would not lie to other members.  If we have to start second guessing whether a response is fabricated this site will rapidly fall apart as distrust takes over.  

I think its best left to an individual to assess a response and its suitability.  A responder is not telling them anything confidential, or that cannot be verified by other means.  Unless its an opinion, which are like a**holes...

RE: Too much free advice

Dinosaur makes a good point.  It is pretty obvious from some of the questions that the person asking is fishing for free professional help.  We need to ignore these requests.  I think some of us, myself included, are sometimes a little too anxious to show what we know, and maybe even get a star for it.

RE: Too much free advice

3
(OP)
Well guys, I appreciate the support since my post was mainly intended to cause the seasoned professionals here to read the posted questions twice before responding.  Read it first to understand the question and decide if you are qualified to provide guidance.  Read it a second time to figure out if you are giving advice to an individual who could misinterpret the advice and cause injury or damage.

I still refuse to give specific example out of charity, but I offer this observation.

There are posts here where someone expresses a desired outcome and a description of the current situation.  The kind of detail lacks the basic information engineers use to make decisions.  Engineers talking to each other will use specific dimensions, material names by grade, code provisions they can't figure out and a host of vocabulary that have precise uses.

For example:
Non engineers will say they have a bunch of wood beams resting on top of a wall that they want to remove and need to support the beams.  

Engineers say they have a client that wants to replace a load bearing wall with an open doorway spanning seven feet.  The joists from the adjacent two rooms of the above floor (two sty bldg) are spaced 16"o.c. and span is about sixteen feet on each side.  The code requires a live load of 100 psf in these spaces.  My problem is I can not get a wood joist (header) to carry the load that does not exceed the available depth defined by the client.  Using 2x8s, what strategies would you recommend to obtain adequate strength and stiffness for this joist (header)?

Does this sound like an engineer?  Yes!  Does the previous statement?  No, and it lacks so much detail that I would not think an engineer asked the question.

The other one that bothers me is the question from the obvious new engineer that doesn't want to ask his supervisor.  It think it is a bad idea for us to guide young engineers from this vantage point.

You folks can all do what you wish, but for my part, I try and think about who the audience is before I post a reply.

RE: Too much free advice

2
There is no doubt that there are some inquiries that are from people with no engineering background, yes, even some students looking for an easy way out. However, most replies are very short and do not involve in-depth analysis or explanations. At best, most replies simply steer the person in the "right direction" of what they need to consider and where to find more information. In most cases it is simply the responder's "opinion" on a subject.

It is simple enough to ignore those questions that are looking for more information than you are willing to provide.

This is the perfect site for a "non-engineer" to post a question to provide them with idea of what factors need to be considered and who to look to for detailed advice. If not here, a site that has earn a reputation and the respect of both engineers and non-engineers, where should they go to seek some needed direction and guidance? Can we direct the non-technical person to a better site for their questions? I don't believe there is a better site or I would participate in it. I applaud those people, like myself, that are willing to seek advice from people that are more competent or have training in wide range of technical fields that is beyond my field of endeavor.

Best regards - Al

RE: Too much free advice

If you're in doubt, you can tell from the context of the post, as Dinosaur states.  You can also ask a direct question, such as "are you a structural engineer" or "are you a student".  Even when individuals lie about their credentials, you can almost always pick them out if you don't get over excited at the prospect of answering a post before thinking about the question.  

When in doubt, red flag it and management will sort it out.  If that person turns out to be credible, as near as we can tell, the post will be left alone.  We can't afford to give irresponsible advice for the sake of getting a purple star if it ends up causing problems "in the real world".

Good engineers asking questions that are out of their area of expertise should be referred to a professional, just as everyone else is, or red flagged so management can take care of it.

Thanks Dinosaur for bringing this up.  

RE: Too much free advice

I repeat what I said before and what UcfSE just stated,

Red Flag it and let management sort it out if in doubt.

RE: Too much free advice

Gtaw: Applaouse! Well thought and well spoken.

RE: Too much free advice

gtaw - this site is not, nor ever was intended for a non-engineer or student.  The purpose of the site is stated in the upper left hand corner of each page:  

INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Student posting is prohibited (see below the post box where it states):  

Promoting, selling, recruiting and student posting
are not allowed in the forums. Click here to find out why.

I participate in this site because I appreciate the advice and experience from other engineers to assist me in my work.  I provide my advice to reciprocate.  

Those seeking engineering advice, help, or actual designs (it does happen) do not belong here and should seek to hire an engineer to assist them.  This site is not an engineering firm and does not and should not practice engineering via the internet.


RE: Too much free advice

I agree with JAE and the rest who are opposed to handing out free, direct answers to specific design questions.  I'm still and EIT (preparing for SE1 this October) but I've got to say, some of the questions posed by alleged “structural engineers” are downright embarrassing.  Most of the forums are helpful and address issues common to the entire design community… those forums deserve contribution.  But don't forget though, some of these “handout” questions are being asked by direct competitors.  It may be ethical to help a fellow engineer, but is it good business to assist them in solving their problem, make them look good in the eyes of their client, and get rehired?

Here's my 2 cents for those asking for a handout (blunt as they may be)

Students: Go to the library
EIT's: Go ask the guy sealing your work
PE’s: Tell your client they may have hired the wrong guy

As for the rest: If you don’t think the question is valid or deserves help, close your internet browser and get back to work!

Speaking of which… :)

RE: Too much free advice

The post that disturb me, are the ones where they are asking basic questions that a graduate Civil Engineer should already know the answer to.

RE: Too much free advice

In a lot of cases, it is possible to answer a specific question in a general way that should be helpful to the engineer and yet fairly useless to the non-engineer.  I don't think any answer ever given should be put in such terms that it would constitute engineering advice.

You might also consider if "engineering professionals" is the same as "professional engineers".  If it is, then anyone without a PE should never post here.  If it isn't, then you have to accept that there is a fairly broad range of abilities represented, not all just graduate engineers.

RE: Too much free advice

posts i've read and written, don't tell the solution to the problem, simply because we don't know all of the different issues with the design.  mostly they're hints, guides, to be followed up by independent research (and not applied "out-of-the-box").

RE: Too much free advice

Quote:

It think it is a bad idea for us to guide young engineers from this vantage point.

I don't entirely agree with that statement.  While I think it is of the utmost importance that a young engineer is trained and supervised I also think they should exercise initiative when they come across a new problem.  The first port of call is not 'just ask someone'.  We all have a supervisor (unless you own the company).

They should be able to do research using their own steam.  That can be reading papers, text books or using this site.  Just by searching the site they may find the question has been asked before.  None of the advice given here cannot be found somwhere in published literature.

We must try and not give a definitive answer but offer lines of possible inquiry.  If this site can teach a young engineer to be resourceful that will stand him in good sted for the future and I am all for that.

RE: Too much free advice

There was a young engineer some time back that had posted a number of questions regarding seismic design.  As the thread continued, it became apparent that she was inexperienced.  At this time it was pointed out to her that her questions were best answered by an engineer in responsible charge of that project and that this forum was not a step by step by step tutorial.

Jordan

RE: Too much free advice

Eng-Tips is a very useful tool.  Since I first became aware of this site a couple of years ago, I have searched for answers to some of my questions, I have posted a few questions,  and I have responded to a few questions.  I only wish that I could respond to more questions, because I believe my 30-some years of experience in the field could be quite useful, but my time is limited due to my workload.

Whenever a question is posted from an obvious non-engineer I almost feel violated, because  Eng-Tips is intended for professionals only.  Since I have not spent much time on this site I unfortunately, have not realized that an inappropriate post could be red-flagged (as indicated by JAE, above).  I will make use of this red-flagging, and every other engineer should also.  I feel that the value of Eng-Tips is diminished by non-engineers.

Notwithstanding the above, I also do not believe that Eng-Tips should be consulted by young engineers that have not first consulted with their mentor (engineer in responsible charge).  Allow me to explain, lest I also be called a “dinosaur”. (Please don't take offense Dinosaur, I agree with you.)

After college I started in a large engineering firm.  My mentor was a project engineer with probably 25 years of experience, and he had been with the firm for about ten years. Whenever I had an engineering-type question of substance (as opposed to a question that required only a quick answer), my mentor would provide a small amount of advice and direct me to a publication (or few)  that could provide the answer.  The “answer” involved reading of at least a few pages, generally more . . . which generally referenced further reading, . . .  which I also researched. (Involved a lot of home syudy.)

Pursuing an answer to a question in this manner provided me with the background, as well as the means to answer the question, or to solve my problem.  I am deeply grateful to my mentor for his direction, and I firmly believe that his, is the best way to thoroughly learn any engineering solution.  You won’t need a photographic memory, but you’ll always remember how to solve the particular problem.

In stark contrast to the in-depth method above, is a short answer posted on Eng-tips to a potentially complicated question.  A terse response, in an inexperienced young engineer’s hand could cause more problems than imagined.

In short, first consult your mentor, research the background material and then, if you have a specific question about your research, consult Eng-Tips.

RE: Too much free advice

It sounds like you want an exclusive club, not a forum that is open to the public.

Just my opinion.

Best regards - Al

RE: Too much free advice

Use the "Red Flag" with caution.  I discovered the hard way that it doesn't remove say, a response that is inappropriate, but removes the entire thread.  And I have yet to see any sign that such a post gets reviewed- it just seems to disappear forever regardless.

RE: Too much free advice

The argument seems to be that if you ask a question then you are not competent in that subject, you are not competent to ask a question, and not competent to receive a reply. Utter tosh. It's only advice you're getting. Some of it is good, some of it isn't.
Incidentally, I once asked a chartered engineer (a PE in the US) if he could do a problem for me. He said he didn't know how to but he could check the answer I got as "he was chartered". Staggering beyond belief. Some so-called engineers need to get off their high horse.

corus

RE: Too much free advice

No one is 'competent' at everything, and unless you work in a very specialist area (or a bubble) you will always come across aspects you have not dealt with before.  At that point do you go "I'm not competent" and give up or do some research, ask colleagues who have more experience in that area and increase your level of competency.

This is the same whether you are a new graduate or a seasoned pro with 40 years experience.  Lets be clear even a seasoned pro has to learn all the time as the technology is always changing.

Increasing your knowledge, expanding your comfort zone is all part of improving as an engineer.  It doesnt matter if you are old or young.

And if asking a few questions here helps an individual to do that then the site is working properly.

RE: Too much free advice

Hi,
my 2 cents: I may agree with Dinosaur in the principle (if we read his first sentence for what it seems to mean): let's be careful not to provide anyone with a Ferrari when it is manifest that he can hardly handle a Cinquecento (pardon for taking examples from my country...). This posed, let's think for a moment to the implications of a furious red-flag use: for example, would you really shut anybody up only because the question is badly posed (i.e. using wrong / inappropriate terms), as it seems to be suggested in Reply #8? Please consider that this site is also frequented by non-anglosaxon engineers (yes, yes, prefessional engineers... once again, does someone want it to be transformed in an exclusive club?), who often struggle against language in order not to be misunderstood.
Also, I think Ussuri hits the best point: as long as an engineer has the will to increase his knowledge (= to LEARN and to ASK), then he can be called "engineer"; should he believe he knows everything and refuse to admit that himself could, one day, ask a question which would be considered dumb by someone other, then I'd call him an arrogant fossile, not an engineer any more. I do believe that the great majority of the threads are opened by people who ask for advice, and don't want their problem to be simply "solved by others".
I believe that no catastrophe has occurred in the history of humanity because someone asked a dumb question and received a competent answer. Btw, someone who is really competent should have the capability to give an appropriate answer to an inappropriate question, providing for a minimum of help but warning that question was ill-posed.
P.S.: it's not entirely true that red-flagging one post makes the entire thread disappear: it happens (a bit frequently, I admit...), but probably only when the staff decides that the whole thread was ill-posed from the beginning.

Regards

RE: Too much free advice

This whole point is useless.  None of the formulae, methods, directions, people post on here will hold up in court unless they are backed by adequete outside sources, such as BOOKS, ARTICLES, and DESIGN AIDS.  ENG-TIPS is a good guide to get you going in the right direction and to find the right resources, but is not to be cited as a resource itself.  Do you guys actually reference ENG TIPS as the sources of your equations in your calculations????? I sure hope not.

RE: Too much free advice

I agree with Loui1.  When a colleague calls me with a question I point them in the right direction, I do not solve the problem in its entirety.

woodengineer

RE: Too much free advice

1.  Not everyone has the good fortune to have a mentor.

2.  Just to clarify:  The red flag does not automatically delete a whole thread.  I've used this tool myself to get particular posts deleted (and had some of mine deleted as well).  But if the initial question was one that should not have been posted, then the whole thread will probably go away even if there are good responses in it.  If you have more questions about the red flag review process, I suggest that you contact the site management through the "contact us" link at the top of the page.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Too much free advice

  Y'know, if someone asks "Hi, I am designing a 2500psi steam tank that goes next to a day care centre and a yard full of cute puppies.  What material should I use?", you do not have to red flag it.  You can reply to them that they clearly are not qualified and that they should take this to a qualified engineer.  

  If there is no red flag, they get to log on and read the answer.  

  I have seen a couple of messages online here from people who know they are not qualified, but they are arguing with their bosses.  There is an increasing number of semi-qualified people operating FEA software (including me soon).  An Eng-tips response may keep someone from making a mistake, and it may be the resource that gets the point across to the boss.

                      JHG

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