Difficult decision to make
Difficult decision to make
(OP)
Dear All:
I might be confronted to a quite difficult situation somewhere in the future and I would like to ear your views about this.
My company is reducing staff and my department is not excluded from that reduction. I have been reducing staff by firing incompetent/non-adapted staff or by not replacing the ones that leave. Since the ones that I fired the decision was done based on performance and eventualy they would be fired anyway, I didn't have any problem with my sleep. But now we are looking to positions that are eventually not needed and/or do not justify a full time position and/or can be outsourced.
I have 2 persons in that situation and eventually I have to release one (my boss mentioned both of them, but I am struggling to keep one), but this is has been quite fight inside my brain.
Some background on these 2 persons:
One is a man and other is a woman;
Both are low specialized workers easily replaced, and clearly excedent for the ammount of work needed for that section;
Both are with us for many years (over 10);
Both are already well over 40;
The woman has 3 kids and she is the only one that takes money home;
The man has 4 or 5 kids (eventualy some already working)but at least 1 is still a child. He is immigrant and recently finally he got authorization to bring his wife and the youngest daughter to the country;
Now, who should I release?
If I look to the company's interests, and since the man sometimes helps in other works not directly connected to his functions, I should release the woman;
If I look for the social environment, the woman is the only income for his family and I know that for the man is easier to find a job even in the civil construction, that has been booming around here.
But then, will I keep the least "skilled" staff and release the "better" one? The commas are just because this is non-skilled labour so their job quality in the position is basically the same.
The things have been more calm now, but I know that sooner or later my boss will come back to this issue.
What would you do?
I might be confronted to a quite difficult situation somewhere in the future and I would like to ear your views about this.
My company is reducing staff and my department is not excluded from that reduction. I have been reducing staff by firing incompetent/non-adapted staff or by not replacing the ones that leave. Since the ones that I fired the decision was done based on performance and eventualy they would be fired anyway, I didn't have any problem with my sleep. But now we are looking to positions that are eventually not needed and/or do not justify a full time position and/or can be outsourced.
I have 2 persons in that situation and eventually I have to release one (my boss mentioned both of them, but I am struggling to keep one), but this is has been quite fight inside my brain.
Some background on these 2 persons:
One is a man and other is a woman;
Both are low specialized workers easily replaced, and clearly excedent for the ammount of work needed for that section;
Both are with us for many years (over 10);
Both are already well over 40;
The woman has 3 kids and she is the only one that takes money home;
The man has 4 or 5 kids (eventualy some already working)but at least 1 is still a child. He is immigrant and recently finally he got authorization to bring his wife and the youngest daughter to the country;
Now, who should I release?
If I look to the company's interests, and since the man sometimes helps in other works not directly connected to his functions, I should release the woman;
If I look for the social environment, the woman is the only income for his family and I know that for the man is easier to find a job even in the civil construction, that has been booming around here.
But then, will I keep the least "skilled" staff and release the "better" one? The commas are just because this is non-skilled labour so their job quality in the position is basically the same.
The things have been more calm now, but I know that sooner or later my boss will come back to this issue.
What would you do?





RE: Difficult decision to make
Could you offer both of them part time (work sharing) as an alternative? Half pay is better than none.
I don't envy you but, when it comes right down to it, the situation is not your fault. You have a job to do & if you don't do it your boss probably will & could well include you along with them. Which I'm sure you are aware of as a possibility once you've done all the dirty work anyway.
Good luck.
RE: Difficult decision to make
If you are axing based on merit, then merit it is.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Difficult decision to make
If I couldn't answer yest to at least one of those questions, I would be gone.
I worked at a place that constantly told the employees that they didn't mkae enough money to give more than 1-1/2% to 2-1/2% yearly raises. People who made over $50K per year were often given nothing. They weren't laying people off, but just their cheapness and lack of dedication to their people was ebough to send the real talent packing.
This is just my take. You may want to tough it out.
Onto the firing: if there is no clearcut choice who would help your company or even be more capable or more willing to assist down the road, which seems a little unlikely, I would then lean to keeping the one who needs it the most. The first priority is with the company, unless its a dead heat in which case I would want to go with my heart.
Ed
www.engineerboards.com
RE: Difficult decision to make
The problem here is that it is not a question of "merit" anymore, it's a question of numbers and ratios.
If I look to their performance they are Ok for the function, so I cannot fire them based on merit or lack of it. The thing is that this function doesn't justify 2 persons full time (eventually doesn't even justify one) and can be easily outsourced. This I also have to agree with my boss, but it is the social problem that I am creating by releasing this person that is letting me worried.
RE: Difficult decision to make
He finally decided that in the morning whichever one used the water cooler first would have to go. Debra came in the next morning, hugely hung over after partying all night. She went to the cooler to get some water to take an aspirin so the executive approached her and said:
"Debra, I've never done this before, but I have to lay you or Jack off." Debra sighed then replied: "Could you jack off, I have a terrible headache."
RE: Difficult decision to make
I don't think that the company is sinking. What has changed was the philosofy that ruled until some years ago.
Until like 3 or 4 years ago, the company had a philosofy of having very little outsourcing. All functions were company's employees, from cleaning ladies to canteen staff, to security guards. Around 3 years ago, it changed his philosofy (that frankly speaking was a little bit outdated) and started outsourcing (and releasing the affected persons) . Now we have outsourced security services, cleaning services, and in my deparment, much more subcontractors working for us. For your reference we managed to reduce the our headcount in our department by over 25% by using the method that I described in my initial thread. Of course we had to change some working methods and outsource much more but the fact is that the operations and were not affected and the product keeps on coming out of production lines.
RE: Difficult decision to make
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Difficult decision to make
When you outsource a job, you still have to pay to get the job done, but now you also have to pay someone else's profit. That can net you a short term savings, provided that the local job market is saturated with the skill you have outsourced.
The other problem is, when business picks up, you may find it difficult to hire or rent people who are even as good as the ones you laid off already. The outsourced suppliers are in the same labor market, and will have just as much difficulty.
Instead of finding ways to mitigate the impact of a sizable wage or staff reduction, your company should be finding ways to increase sales. If they're not doing that, they're doomed, and so is your job.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Difficult decision to make
RE: Difficult decision to make
There are many, many situations where outsourcing is the smart choice.
Yes you are (hopefully) paying someone else's profit to perform the function, but there are lot of times where it would cost you that amount of profit plus a lot more to perform that same function in house. Scale is one of the greatest influencing factors and he listed one great example, security. Who is going to attract the most qualified security personell in my area, a large contractor who's sole business is security, who intimatly knows and understands the legal, insurance and training required to operate.... or the engineering firm.
Your blanket statement taken to the extreem means you must form an oil exploration division, drill, transport and refine fuel for your company vehicles. Or, you can run down to the local gas station and outsource.
A couple of billion other factors come into play, but the bottom line is that a business can't be everything, or do everything, competently, efficiently or profitably.
JTMcC.
www.firstratefabricators.com
RE: Difficult decision to make
This is a no brainier, do what is best for the long term interest of your company.
RE: Difficult decision to make
Let's say you pick one of them.
Let's say the other one see's the "writing on the wall" and find another job. Your now out an employee. What good did playing "guardian" do?
Pick which one is most likely to be able to transition into other tasks. That one is most likely to try cross-training elsewhere in the company. Good for the employee, good for the company.
RE: Difficult decision to make
Why don't you can them both? Are you running a charity or a profit making venture? why don't you outsource everything but those positions that bring in money, i.e., the "business developers"?
If it's so important to you that the company save money, why don't you quit and do the company a favor, I'm sure you'll be appriciated.
In all seriousness,ask yourself these questions over and over again. Who the heck wants to work where the thought of being laid off at any second looms high - so high that you can't concentrate on getting the job done - as if that matters?
"Our workers are our most valuable asset! Gentlemen, I say that we sell them!"
RE: Difficult decision to make
As for the often quoted "our employees are our greatest asset", what a joke.
Our GOOD employees are our greatest asset (and hardest to replace) but the poor employees are a drag on the whole shebang and should be eliminated at the first available opportunity.
JTMcC.
www.firstratefabricators.com
RE: Difficult decision to make
If you recognize that "B" is the logical choice, don't you think that others do, too?
Pick whichever provides the least value to your company and do what you must.
I hope your company is decent about such things and will provide a good severance package.
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RE: Difficult decision to make
RE: Difficult decision to make
My point is that MedicineEng's position has now been overtaken by emotions. If that's the case, then MedicineEng is useless as someone who's job it is to fire people.
And it sounds like that company needs to outsource everything - meaning: the company is ceasing to be an engineering company (I've assumed that's what it is) but some sort of middleman that, if it's not super careful, will cease to be necessary. Surely a boon for the stockholders...
MedicineEng should fire both employees as that's the only "fair" way to deal with the issue. MedicineEng stated:
"One is a man and other is a woman;" sorry, but in the USA fo 2006, that's not even part of the equation, unless you want a discrimination lawsuit.
"Both are low specialized workers easily replaced, and clearly excedent for the ammount of work needed for that section;" FIRE THEM BOTH AND HIRE A "KID."
"Both are with us for many years (over 10);" So what? It sounds like they haven't advanced beyond "low specialization" in ten years, so they're slackers.
"Both are already well over 40;" Age discrimination anyone?
"The woman has 3 kids and she is the only one that takes money home;" Oh, so you're a charity?
"The man has 4 or 5 kids (eventualy some already working) but at least 1 is still a child." Oh, so you're a charity?
" He is immigrant and recently finally he got authorization to bring his wife and the youngest daughter to the country;" If he's an immigrant and he's been in the country for ten years (I assume that he has) working for your company, how often do you let him go back to see his wife? Sounds like your company has a liberal policy on vacation time - and that costs money! That, or this guy and his wife have an odd relationship.
Why does MedicineEng feel guilty (if that's the right word - don't know, but it's good for now) about any of this? Is it MedicineEng's fault that these two employees are in the postions they're in? What are the consequences for MedicineEng if one of the employees isn't fired? Losing one's own job? Is MedicineEng's job even necessary itself?
And... if this is the biggest part of MedicineEng's job (sounds like it's pretty important), once the firing is done, what else is left for MedicineEng to do? Look out!
RE: Difficult decision to make
Perhaps you could refer this particular problem to your superior? After all, you say its a dead heat. Perhaps your boss could offer some clarification?
RE: Difficult decision to make
Just some clarifications/answers:
-My company is not an engineering company, it's a manufacturing company outside US;
-My job is not to fire people, my job is to run a department, in which part of my responsibilities is to manage the human resources of this department;
-The fact that these 2 employees are in the company for so long comes in the sense that I already explained before that previously the company had a philosofy of no/almost none outsourcing;
-The fact that I mentioned the gender and the age of the persons doesn't imply any type of discrimination. Is just to let you understand some of the constraints that I have. And discrimination aside, it is (at least for me) easier to release a young man that I know that has more probabilities to get a job than a older woman that is the only income of his family;
-The policy of vacation time is the same for all employees, no matter immigrant or not. Before he was going home once a year (and making a child/year).
-Regarding the severance package it will be according with the law (eventually a bit more). In their case, it will be something around 1 year salary
And yes, I am not insensible to the constraints of this case. If I was, this thread wouldn't even exist: I would fire both and that's it.
RE: Difficult decision to make
Why would you even worry about their home life/breadwinning?
Where do I have to go to get a 1 year severence package?
RE: Difficult decision to make
Actions can be rationalized for most any type of discrimination. In this case basing your decision on age or sex is every bit as unpalatable as basing it on race or religion.
RE: Difficult decision to make
You have to come to this country and earn what they earn per year (that most probably is what you earn in a month)...The maximum severance by the law is 1 year salary.
Zapster:
If you see in my words any discrimination, so be it. It is not my intention to have any discrimination based on gender or age. It is solely yo explain better the situation. I believe that all persons that have to take decisions like this one, put all these facts into consideration and doesn't have anything to do with discrimination.
Can you fire without a blink of an eye a person that you know that it will have immense difficulty to get a new job, in a country where social security is virtually inexistent and that he (she) is the only income for his (her) family?
And the quesiton of the gender comes in the sense that even with all the non discrimination laws that are (or not) enforced, the fact is that men can easily get a new job than women. This is reality.
RE: Difficult decision to make
To all managers or would-be managers who consider any sub-par employee (that happens to be 50% of them) a slacker that should be eliminated asap...
Have you ever told these people what you expect from them in clear and measurable terms? (already before you hired them?) Have you ever compared their actual performance with those requirements, discussed on how to improve and seriously followed up on that? Have you provided them with the training they needed?
If any of the answers is no then have a good look in the eyes of the person you are firing and see who is the first to look away.
RE: Difficult decision to make
I dont like that the corprate sector has a tendency to not be forthcoming with information concering things like job security or fair pay.
This sadly may mean that i am never allowed into upper management.
BSK
RE: Difficult decision to make
Given the threat of workplace violence or vandalism, I believe the norm is to not give people time in the workplace to stew about loosing their job.
Over the past 4 years I have witnessed two telling events.
One layoff everyone knew was coming soon, the actual day came unannounced. People were met at their cubes when they came in and escorted off the premises. Their personal belongings were set to them. They received two weeks additional pay on top of their severance in lieu of their two weeks notice.
In a second event, someone in another group working in our area gave his boss two weeks notice. She wound up escorting him off the base that morning. I understood it had to do with his new position with a company that was a potential competitor.
For those reasons, I was 100% prepared to leave the very minute I gave my two weeks notice with my previous employer. I had no personal items in my work area. My project notes were updated ready for turnover. I also had made the arrangements to start the move in 3 weeks to avoid loosing income over the transition.
I felt bad about not being able to give my boss more notice, but the decisions to escort someone off the premises ASAP might have been in the hands of a corporate security person.
As a side note, I always try to maintain useful project notebooks and pass down records, just in case.
It’s a rule of low risk project management. I do believe my insentience on maintaining good a project notebook, sometimes caused my boss to believe my leaving was imminent.
Not the case at all. I did not decide to go until they announced an across the board pay cut.
RE: Difficult decision to make
The corporate rules is to fire immediately and pay in money the equivalent to the advance notice. The reason is the one that was already stated.
I think that the issue is that we are seeing this issue with "engineer's" eyes, so a lay off is bad, but with the set of skills that was given to us derived from the formal education that we had the luck or made the effort to have we are better prepared to get ourselves out of the mud, if needed.
The issue is that we are speaking about low specialized, virtually non formally educated staff that barely know to write and read.
RE: Difficult decision to make
(Of course I'm joking guys,,)
RE: Difficult decision to make
Which one is the highest cost to the company?
One thing I would keep in mind is this, if the person remaing is your only subordinate, look for a new job.
RE: Difficult decision to make
RE: Difficult decision to make
"Can you fire without a blink of an eye a person that you know that it will have immense difficulty to get a new job, in a country where social security is virtually inexistent and that he (she) is the only income for his (her) family?
And the quesiton of the gender comes in the sense that even with all the non discrimination laws that are (or not) enforced, the fact is that men can easily get a new job than women. This is reality."
Given this context, sure you can retain the employee that adds most to the company. If this happens to be the men, then at least be sincere and make sure you throw all those glossy "social responsibility" brochures in the shredder, because they would be seriously outdated after you fired the woman!
RE: Difficult decision to make
Management has a pretty good idea of the desired headcount and the jobs (not necessarily people) they want to retain.
What they have done is allow you some "A" or "B" choices and this particular case doesn't appear to be an "either/or" but "both".
If you can't demonstrate a genuine need then you are fighting a lost cause and it is best to make the cut quick and clean for the empoyee's sakes.
You say some of the jobs are going to outsourcing, so are you able to get either or both taken on with the outsource provider? or is that the problem?
If there was a genuine capability to retain one job then you might be justified in concerning yourself with their personal circumstances but in this case you may just be making a tough decision harder.
From the way this is reported to us, this is a staged firing sequence and I might wonder if you have done it in the right order?
I would think it might be better to make the difficult fires first (while you have the nerve for it) and to give the good guys first pick in the job market. I'd save the brown-nosers, the dead beats and slackers till last and gain some perspective.
I don't know what anyone else thinks.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Difficult decision to make
It's been 2 weeks since your last entry.
Are you still there?
What happened?
RE: Difficult decision to make
I am still here and still have my job...
Thanks a lot for your replies and interest in this.
Right now the things are more calm and the frenzy for outsourcing has relaxed a little bit.
I am sure that it will come back.
I am still evaluating the situation but I will have to close my ears to emotion and follow the rational thing to do, whatever painful (to me and the involved parties) it might be.
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