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Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
I'm assuming everyone here tries to avoid using trade names when reffering to supplies, tools etc in formal documents (except when it really does need to be that trade name).

With that in mind is there a generic term for velcro?

I got the following on wikipedia but I'm not sure people reading the document would know what I'm on about.

"Generic terminology for these fasteners includes "hook and loop", "burr" and "touch" fasteners."

We use it to hold a camera in place on a tool and I want to get it correct when I refer to it in a modification instruction.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

The generic term I've seen used most often is "hook and loop fastener."  

At first it threw me, until I realized that the patent on Velcro must've run out and everyone was copying it now.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

I agree wit DReimer, "hook & loop".

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
Well,

I guess I'll try hook and loop.  

I was thinking maybe "Velcro (insert trademark symbol) or equivalent" might be clearer but goes against the grain a little.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

We just bought some & I believe the complete description was "Hook and Loop Fastener Tape".

cheers
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to find answers ... FAQ559-1091

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

It's interesting to look at the Trade Mark names we often use instead of the generic: Channel Locs, Vise Grips, Kleenex, Xerox, ect. Many times the trade name is easier to descride a tool or item than the generic. "Adjustable Water Pump Pliers" is a mouthful. Just an interesting observation

I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
 A.J. Gest, York Int./JCI

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

I would also go for "hook and loop fastener".

However, recently I have seen many outerwear manufacturers refer to it as "touch fastener" as it applies to pocket flaps and such.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

When I hear 'hook and loop fastener' the first thing that comes to my mind is that little hook on a ladies dress at the neck in the back just above where the zipper stops.

Why not use Velcro or eqaul. Are there standards for this? What would define the quality.

NozzleTwister
Houston, Texas

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

I prefer "Velcro or equivalent" because everyone knows what Velcro is, but not everyone knows what "Hook and Loop fastener" is.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

I probably just go with Velcro.

If they have an alternative, they usually come back and ask "Is hook and loop okay?".

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
Asherang,

I don't want them to come back.  Not because I mind the question but because it seems to take them days/weeks to come back with this kind of question by which time it has escalated from being a minor clarification to a show stopper preventing shipping of a several hundred thousand dollar tool.

Yes I know this is probably more of a culture thing etc but I'm trying to work with it while gently massaging it in the right direction.

It's impossible to make a document or product idiot proof, they'll just find a bigger idiot, but the less areas of potential confusion/misuse you leave I'm thinking the better.  

If any type of 'hook & loop fastener' will do the job, it doesn't have to be a certain grade etc then why specify one specific make, which implicitly you're doing by putting juse "Velcro".

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

We frequently see (paraphrased) "... shall be XYZ brand or equal alternative." in specifications.

This clearly shows the preferred item, but permits use of a substitute.

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

How about,

"...hook and loop fastener (the Velcro kind, not the kind on a woman's dress or bra)..."

Just kidding...

DaveAtkins

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Why do you worry about using a trademark? If I'm happy that Raychem Hexcel 0607 is the right adhesive, that's what goes on the drawing.

Suppose some idiot makes a Velcro substitute out of a (metal) file-card and an appropriate looped metal wire? is that acceptable? No. Not always.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Here is how we resolve this issue.

HOOK, and LOOP goes in the colum titled nomenclature and (VELCRO) goes in the material spec column. However, we have an assigned unique part number to each strip and a qualified parts list so our purchasing dept knonws which vendors, and their product numbers, meet our engineering needs.

Needless to say, we make a lot of part that requre velcro.

Wes C.
------------------------------
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

FYI to NozzleTwister  and DaveAtkins:

Those things on a woman's bra or dress are "hook and eyes".

(My twin sister is a fashion designer so I know these things.)

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
Greg,

Lets just say that at the moment this place is a configuration/drawing standards nightmare.  So while I can't always make it better I try not to make it worse.  Specifying Velcro when it doesn't need to be Velcro brand is I guess over specifying which I was thinking would count as worse.

Also when I posted the question I was working from home hoping to get the spec done before I got back to work and didn't have access to the data that would say what we're calling up.

And finally it's for a field modification document not drawing so I definitely want it generic in case they have to use whatever is at hand (file card might be pushing it but if it works then for once I'll let my usual attempted adherence to standards etc slip, even if this is a little inconsistent with what I say above).

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Ken

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Quote:

I was thinking maybe "Velcro (insert trademark symbol) or equivalent" might be clearer but goes against the grain a little.

Trademark names and other terms in common use can lose any legal protections if they should ever come into such common use so as to become a generic term, i.e., Kleenex, Spam, White Out, Donut... smile

Just recently, Google stated a policy such that the word "Google" should NOT be used as a verb, and my guess is that their policy on this is a preventive measure to protect their name from becoming a common use term.

Never the less, such affinities linking to a product or enterprise may be more beneficial to promotion and recognition than trying to prevent any associations as such.

Coke anyone?

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

lookintomyeyes,

Thanks for the correction on the proper nomenclature.

We'll see if my wife is impressed with my sudden knowledge of such things the next time I need to help her with her 'hook and eye'.

BTW, I'm a twin too, I have an identical twin brother.

NozzleTwister
Houston, Texas

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Peopleunit,

I have heard that in certain parts of the country, the term "Coke" is used to describe ANY kind of soda pop.  Is that why you said, " Coke, anyone?"

Here in the Midwest (at least Wisconsin and Illinois), the term "soda" applies to soda pop.  Where I grew up (Pennsylvania), it is called "pop."

DaveAtkins

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

FWIW,

When I look up "kardborreband" (literally "burdock band") in my dictionary, I get "Velcro". So it seems to be an accepted generic term.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Since moving to Houston 29 years ago, I've managed to push the words soft drink, soda, pop soda pop all the way to the bottom of my usable vocabulary list. Here they ask, "What kind of coke do you want?"

Ironically, growing up in another state, my dad worked for 7up and Royal Crown Cola so we didn't ask for any Cokes in our house.

NozzleTwister
Houston, Texas

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
So, just because I know you're all on the edge of your seats waiting to see what I'm gonna do:

I'm putting the following:

Quote:

Apply self adhesive Velcro®, or equivalent hook and loop fastener, to bottom of CCU and attach to corresponding hook and loop fastener on tool.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Have you checked self adhesive hook and loop in this application?

In many situations the adhesive bond is weaker than the hook and loop bond.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
TomfhCan I just check, are you serious or just continuing the hilarity from my post.

Just in case:

It's an almost completely non structural application.

The ccu sits on a surface, no vibration no significant load.  The velcro is just to stop any load from the routed cables pushing it off.

The existing CCU uses this system with as far as I know no problems in 5+ years.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Whats wrong with good old fashioned sticky back plastic?

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
Hook & loop allows you to pull it out and swap it without having to try getting the sticky back plastic off I guess.  Maybe looks a tiny bit better too although I don't think the customer/user would normally see it where it is.

Not my design, I'm just trying to sustain it.

Thanks for the tip on self adhesive hook & loop not being that adhesive, I seem to recall seeing it on clothing fastener type stuff.  However, since it literally just sits on the velcro with very low side load, in a very benign environment, I don't see it being an issue.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

I know I'm coming in as the smadillionth post to this, but my understanding is that it's OK to call it VELCRO(r) if you are either specifying genuine VELCRO brand, or supplying genuine VELCRO brand.  If you call it Velcro and give them a generic substitute, That's when you'll generate a letter from Velcro's legal staff.  

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
As mentioned before it's in a field change kit in a non critical application so although it goes against the grain a little I don't care too much if they use the real stuff or generic.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Greg, Some idiot already made it.

Just yesterday I saw stainless steel hook and loop fasteners in the McMaster-Carr catalog.

For corrosion and heat resistance. Life span of only 10 cycles.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Hah. Now, one day someone will be relying on Velcro's insulating properties, and will get a nasty shock.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

A decade or so ago the U.S. Army Natick Labs in Natick Massachusetts (the folks who developed MREs, astronaut food (freeze dried food and food in a tube) and new parachute & body armor technology) was developing military hook & loop fasteners including a product made from stainless steel which could hold over 100 pounds per square foot as well as a silent version.  Easier than buttons for soldiers to open when wearing gloves, but the traditional scrrrrick sound was a dead give away to the enemy.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
So,

Just to finish this thread off....

I actually got hold of some of the stuff we use the other day and...

It's not hook and loop!

It's actually like little lollipops all sticking up.

One side is course and one side finer.

I think I'll stick with the wording I put before but I guess it's inaccurate to call it hook & loop.

Ken

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

What wes6216 and some others said, always desribe a product in this case it appears that "Hook and Loop type fasterner" would be the description and then mention Velcro as one of the acceptable manufacturers. If only velcro is desired indicate Velcro as the acceptable manufacturer and mention "no substitute".

Using a trade name to describe a product or its feature is not professional.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

(OP)
Hence this post, I was trying to be proferssional.smile

In principle the 'Velcro' I'm talking about is the same stuff you see on shoes etc.  In practice as my previous post it is subtly different.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

in south america the generic name used by analogy is: cierre de abrojo
for which i could not find a translation... although: thistle zipper would be a similar concept.
 

saludos.
a.

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

Thistle zipper...I like it.

So a few weeks ago I was sitting with people from France and Israel and Belgium and no one knew the word "Velcro".  When I explained it, they knew what I was talking about but didn't have a word for it.  

Are Americans just Velcro-obsessed that we talk about it and others don't?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Generic instead of trade name for Velcro

We have a weed called Stay-a-while, but yes, i like thistle zipper as well.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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