"Chance" of a lifetime
"Chance" of a lifetime
(OP)
I'm hoping to get some feedback from some folks who have taken some BIG risks vs. reward with their career.
I have a friend who is a very successful GC. He started his business around 10 years ago. He mostly builds $500k+ homes, small commercial buildings, and usually goes after "odd/difficult" high profile type jobs. His quality around town is unriveled. Most of his subcontractors are folks he has been doing business with years.
Long story short: he has a standing offer for me to join him once once I get my PE (~1.5 years). At such a time, he plans to bring an Architect and maybe another engineer on board to become a Design/Build type of company. He basically wants me to help run the business and deal with the city/county/lawyers/construction schedules/subcontractors etc...
If I join him, my salary would more than triple from the beginning. Assuming things go well within a few years...I would get a stake in the company.
Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?
I have a friend who is a very successful GC. He started his business around 10 years ago. He mostly builds $500k+ homes, small commercial buildings, and usually goes after "odd/difficult" high profile type jobs. His quality around town is unriveled. Most of his subcontractors are folks he has been doing business with years.
Long story short: he has a standing offer for me to join him once once I get my PE (~1.5 years). At such a time, he plans to bring an Architect and maybe another engineer on board to become a Design/Build type of company. He basically wants me to help run the business and deal with the city/county/lawyers/construction schedules/subcontractors etc...
If I join him, my salary would more than triple from the beginning. Assuming things go well within a few years...I would get a stake in the company.
Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?





RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
The question you have to answer is how much risk can you stand? Some people and some companies fail at diversification. That's the downside, e.g., you might be looking for a job in 2 years.
However, the experience is probably invaluable.
And will you ever regret not doing it?
TTFN
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
I think you have decide if you can handle your side of the proposed business, which does not seem like an easy task because if you don't get permits in time, it will hold his construction side up.
I personally do not like to mix business with good friendships because its hard to say "don't take it personally, its just business" when there is money involved.
If you are willing to put in an equal amount of work and effort as he is, you may get a fast track to where you want to be in 10 years(and keep a good friend).
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
How long before you retire?
Is your existing retirement portable?
What other benefits do you lose by leaving?
What benifets do you gain with the new outfit?
Do you maintain enough cash or liquid asets to support yourself for 6 months with no income if something goes wrong?
What do you want to do?
Once you know these answers, you'll probably have your answer.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Secondly, I see you're in the Electrical field, and that seems like an odd addition to the plan- does he do so much electrical that he needs an electrical engineer to do it? Or are you supposed to stamp foundation plans and HVAC along with the electrical?
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
I always tell myself though that if sounds too good to be true it probably is...
but not always
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Kontiki's statement about salary is also very true. Coming from a family of entrepreneurs, I was always taught to have a minimum of 6 months take home pay ready in case of an emergency. 1.5 years gives you time to both study and start saving.
Good luck.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
As far as the risk/reward, I would go for it if I felt competent enough to handle my side of the business.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Concerning stamping the HVAC/Structural drawings, yes, that is part of the plan for me. However, until such a time when I have the experience to be competent in those areas, he would employee someone qualified to do so. He and I have discussed this. I suppose at some point in the future I would need to consult with the lawyer on what is considered "competent". But that's a struggle for later...
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
It sounds like you are already trying to figure out how to worm out of your responsability as a PE. How much can you stamp something without getting in trouble?
Good lawyer question, you should keep him on retainer, you will need it.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
You might consider taking a few hours and working out the details of a seismic or wind analysis using current building codes for one of the guy's projects before you decide you want to jump into that field.
The guy may be taking the amount he's currently paying as engineering fees and deducing what he could pay as a salary out of it- not realizing the scope of work that gets done for those fees.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
If, on the other hand, he is happy to sub out engineering work for which you are not competent to sign off, then go for it.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
My compromise is this: I do the work for him on weekends, days off and at night. That was good enough for him and good enough for me. I'll make a few extra thousand the next year if all goes well. It it doesn't, I'm none the worse for wear.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
I apologize for my comment, I re-read it this morning, and it is pretty nasty.
But, for me little red flags are going off.
DaveVikingPE has a good idea. When you get your PE, do the nights & weekends shift. You will have an idea if you friend is on the up and up.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Also, consider that the contractor is rarely sued for electrical problems (I believe), but will get sued if the foundation moves and damages the structure, or lets say fails and kills someone due to a structural design oversight.
Depending on your area, the geotechnical aspects alone, "although not rocket science", could create major problems and require vast knowledge of the conditions. For example, we have a subdivision that we work in where the only 2 people, of the 250+ we have (all geotechnical), are allowed to perform any work. One is a Senior Principal ($180/hr) and the other is a Engineering Geologist ($100/hr). Also, there are parts of that area they refuse to work in, no matter which client, or how many times they are asked.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
I would like to say that geotechnical engineering is a lot harder than rocket science. More people have been killed as a result of inadequate geotechnical engineering than inadequate rocket science.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
...And even more people have been killed by Adequate Rocket Science...
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Senseless, about the only non-geotechnical thing I would sign off on is perhaps the structural part of a simple foundation design, or small, cantilevered concrete retaining wall. However, these are things that I work with all the time and studied in school. I have also worked directly with structural engineers (multi discipline firm) on projects of that sort. I would not pretend to know enough to sign off on the “structure” of a building, even though I was as much structural as geotechnical in school. It just isn’t my area of practice. I understand it, but I do not know all the details. Did I cover all the seismic requirements, apply all the load combinations, design my connections properly for how the structure was analyzed, etc.
Those are things you learn from working with experienced engineers in the field of practice. They are not the things to pick up on your own. Take a look at your states licensing web site. Likely they will have listed disciplinary actions taken against licensed professionals. You will see, they can be expensive, and may loose you your license for a while, or for good. If your state doesn’t list them, check NC. They are good about busting people. Then think about how you killed someone when your building collapsed, you get sued, you loose your license, and your pal fires you.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
A well-known rule of thumb for "how much do you make?" is to take the hourly salary, multiply it by two then by a thousand, thus $180/hr X 2 X 1000 = $360,000/year. And if the $180/hr is just for billing and the company takes 75% of that, you're still pulling in .75 X 360 = $90k/year and that's not bad.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
TTFN
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
That's dangerous and very concerning. I assume you would pass the appropriate PE exam first concentrating on structural or MEP.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
No, I do not know of anyone who does it.
Straw Poll
Does anyone know of someone who does this "routinely" or "on-occasion"?
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
I have been told, as recently as three weeks ago, that, well, since I'm a PE I should know how to engineer a power grid for a city. - that was even after I violently asserted my uncomfortability concerning doing EE work. My final answer: "the reason we have electrical engineers is so they can do electrical engineering; I'm here to do the structural work!" Some PMs, they just don't get it.
PM: These engineers just don't get it! It's not rocket science!
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Senselesssticker, what state are you in, anyway?
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
In any case, I was hoping to get some feed back from some folks who have taken some risk by joining a small company in a big position such as what I have described. Instead, it seems, most posts (not all) in this thread would rather make insulting and presumptuous statements.
Sheeshh...you guys are acting like a bunch of engineers!
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
People are pointing out considerations. If you were not wanting honest answers from people you should not have asked our opinions.
Here: It is a chance of a lifetime!!. Don't even think that there could be downsides as pointed out above.
Does that feel better?
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
" In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings? I imagine it wouldn't take long to learn applicable codes/standards. "
Is that the standard you apply when stamping something? That a couple of years of reading the codes and standards is enough?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
The reason I brought up some of the issues that I did is that for this to work, he (and you) have to have a realistic expectation of what is to be done. I don't do electrical work, but it sounds like this would be a fairly small part of your duties, which means you are essentially changing engineering fields without any formal education to go with it. That doesn't sound very realistic, and that would make the risk much less worthwhile.
Now, if this guy was an electrical contractor, or ran an electrical consulting firm, I think you'd have a potential heck of a deal. But that's not the case, which would make me approach it very cautiously.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
Ask yourself this: Why does he want you if you don't have the experience to start sealing things right out of the gate? Is it based on the fact that you are friends, and he just wants someone he can put his faith in to run that side of the business? If his reason is anything other than this, I would question why he wants to pay you to essentially be a figurehead when you don't have the experience to perform the work. What are his motivations for bringing you on? I think you should have a serious conversation with him (if you haven't already) about what his expectations are. If you are there strictly as a trusted manager, I would say go for it. There are plenty of successful project managers and executives that don't have a clue what their employees do.
You WILL get into trouble if you seal things for which you are not competent. Even if something of yours doesn't fall down, you competition will report you to the board. In fact, they have a duty to.
I would also echo the concerns of the others as far as structural being more complicated than you are giving it credit for. Get yourself a copy of the LRFD steel manual by the AISC, a copy of an ASD timber design manual set (don't remember the publisher), and a copy of a masonry design manual from the ACI. If you can read and understand all of these, I'd say you have a shot. I abandoned my plans of sealing building code deviations for stick built structures after I tried reviewing these materials from my mostly-structural undergrad education. I'll stick with stormwater where the biggest screw up I can make is causing some flooding.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
We all know there are plenty of licensed engineers out there not worth their weight. Heck, I work with a few incompetent PE’s who I would not trust to design or build a doghouse. And I work with some designers who are more competent then the PE he works for. Hypothetically, I’d rather have a “good” mechanical engineer designing my electrical system of my house/office, than a “bad” electrical engineer. Engineers, regardless of discipline, should have the ability to learn and adapt to other disciplines, its part of what makes a “good” engineer. Folks who take no interest in learning about other disciplines (although exposed to it daily), are often difficult to work with due to a lack of knowledge when trying to coordinate (and I consider he/her an example of a “bad” engineer). Unfortunately, most engineers are not good ones.
I’m still hoping to hear from some folks who have experience either good or bad with taking a risk by joining someone in a small business with the dream of building a larger business. What did you do right/wrong? What was the most difficult hurdle?
And in response to an earlier post....Yes I believe it is possible to pick the codes, standards, and other methods of design and construction (and perhaps even become “competent” in other disciplines) relatively easily when considering residential or small commercial. It simply does not take the same level of “know how” and experience as compared to building a nuke plant, manufacturing facility, large research facility, etc... If it did require such a level of expertise….the American dream would be unaffordable.
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
-b
RE: "Chance" of a lifetime
People are taking this thread in the wrong direction because they see the focus not in the opportunity, but the difficulties that you are not considering.