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"Chance" of a lifetime
2

"Chance" of a lifetime

"Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
I'm hoping to get some feedback from some folks who have taken some BIG risks vs. reward with their career.  

I have a friend who is a very successful GC.  He started his business around 10 years ago.  He mostly builds $500k+ homes, small commercial buildings, and usually goes after "odd/difficult" high profile type jobs.  His quality around town is unriveled.  Most of his subcontractors are folks he has been doing business with years.

Long story short: he has a standing offer for me to join him once once I get my PE (~1.5 years).  At such a time, he plans to bring an Architect and maybe another engineer on board to become a Design/Build type of company.  He basically wants me to help run the business and deal with the city/county/lawyers/construction schedules/subcontractors etc...

If I join him, my salary would more than triple  from the beginning.  Assuming things go well within a few years...I would get a stake in the company.

Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?



RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Of course, it is.  

The question you have to answer is how much risk can you stand?  Some people and some companies fail at diversification.  That's the downside, e.g., you might be looking for a job in 2 years.  

However, the experience is probably invaluable.

And will you ever regret not doing it?

TTFN



RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Both.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I have always been told to never mix family/friends with business.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I agree with IRstuff.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

He sounds like a good guy to do business with as it seems he has a good handle on his side of the business.
I think you have decide if you can handle your side of the proposed business, which does not seem like an easy task because if you don't get permits in time, it will hold his construction side up.
I personally do not like to mix business with good friendships because its hard to say "don't take it personally, its just business" when there is money involved.

If you are willing to put in an equal amount of work and effort as he is, you may get a fast track to where you want to be in 10 years(and keep a good friend).

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Ask yourself:

How long before you retire?

Is your existing retirement portable?

What other benefits do you lose by leaving?

What benifets do you gain with the new outfit?

Do you maintain enough cash or liquid asets to support yourself for 6 months with no income if something goes wrong?

What do you want to do?

Once you know these answers, you'll probably have your answer.



RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

First off, I'd wait 1.5 years and then see how serious he was about actually doing this.

Secondly, I see you're in the Electrical field, and that seems like an odd addition to the plan- does he do so much electrical that he needs an electrical engineer to do it?  Or are you supposed to stamp foundation plans and HVAC along with the electrical?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Sounds like a great opportunity.

I always tell myself though that if sounds too good to be true it probably is...

but not always

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I'd also question the "triple" salary.  Not his offer of it, but the future potential.  If that's based on the current housing boom, and your plan is based on a market 1.5 years down the road, you could potentially be talking about two different business climates.  Certain areas continue to expand, yet building is quickly running out of steam in others.  Definitely something to consider.  I think the Wall St. Journal does an article a week anymore on the condition of the housing/building market in various areas of the US (assuming you're in the US).

Kontiki's statement about salary is also very true.  Coming from a family of entrepreneurs, I was always taught to have a minimum of 6 months take home pay ready in case of an emergency.  1.5 years gives you time to both study and start saving.

Good luck.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Small-time contractors see a PE license as a rubber stamp and assume you are qualified to do anything which may require sealing.  My only concern is your competency may be lacking with regard to sealing structural and land development drawings.  If you refuse to seal something outside your competency, will this guy wonder what he is paying you for?

As far as the risk/reward, I would go for it if I felt competent enough to handle my side of the business.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
Funny thing, JStephen, that you ask about him "being serious".  He talked/joked about it for years while I was in school.  I thought he was only kidding.  When I finally asked how serious he was  (about a year ago), I realized how serious he really is.  He's not kidding...

Concerning stamping the HVAC/Structural drawings, yes, that is part of the plan for me.  However, until such a time when I have the experience to be competent in those areas, he would employee someone qualified to do so.  He and I have discussed this.  I suppose at some point in the future I would need to consult with the lawyer on what is considered "competent".  But that's a struggle for later...

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I agree with proletariat, that he will expect you to be a "rubber stamp". And you say that you will be expected to stamp all disciplines? This is a dead givaway about your "pal's" intentions. Also bear in mind that certain states don't allow design-build to be done with a GC as the prime business entity. These states have realized that you can't trust a Contractor to be ethical enough to be the prime.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Senselessticker,
It sounds like you are already trying to figure out how to worm out of your responsability as a PE.  How much can you stamp something without getting in trouble?
Good lawyer question, you should keep him on retainer, you will need it.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I would be very skeptical about getting into something where I would be expected to stamp all disciplines.  Once you're hired under that condition, there'll be an awful lot of pressure exerted to seal stuff you know nothing about.  Definitely read up on your state rules and see what's required in the way of competency and responsible charge.

You might consider taking a few hours and working out the details of a seismic or wind analysis using current building codes for one of the guy's projects before you decide you want to jump into that field.

The guy may be taking the amount he's currently paying as engineering fees and deducing what he could pay as a salary out of it- not realizing the scope of work that gets done for those fees.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

And remember, if you seal something outside your area of professional competence, it's YOUR ass in a sling.  He will just say "Well the PE signed it, I thought it was fine."

If, on the other hand, he is happy to sub out engineering work for which you are not competent to sign off, then go for it.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I got/have a standing offer from a pal to do the same thing, only the structural part...

My compromise is this: I do the work for him on weekends, days off and at night. That was good enough for him and good enough for me. I'll make a few extra thousand the next year if all goes well. It it doesn't, I'm none the worse for wear.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Senselessticker,
I apologize for my comment, I re-read it this morning, and it is pretty nasty.  
But, for me little red flags are going off.
DaveVikingPE has a good idea.  When you get your PE, do the nights & weekends shift.  You will have an idea if you friend is on the up and up.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
Concerning stamping other disciplines...(folks do this all the time..right?).  Its an issue of if you "know your sh**" or not.  I would never stamp anything I didn't feel comfortable stamping.  In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings?  I imagine it wouldn't take long to learn applicable codes/standards.  I know from an electrical standpoint, anyone with a minimal level of technical/engineering skills could become competent in a couple years or less when dealing with the electrical.  This isn't rocket science.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

"In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commercial buildings?"  - Apparently more than you realize.  Read through the structural (and geotechnical for that matter) engineering boards here.  You will see that even the simple structures have issues that may be complicated.  A lot of this is due to the code and the variety of ways you must analyze things.  I am not saying this cannot be learned, but whom will you be learning from as a fresh PE?

Also, consider that the contractor is rarely sued for electrical problems (I believe), but will get sued if the foundation moves and damages the structure, or lets say fails and kills someone due to a structural design oversight.

Depending on your area, the geotechnical aspects alone, "although not rocket science", could create major problems and require vast knowledge of the conditions.  For example, we have a subdivision that we work in where the only 2 people, of the 250+ we have (all geotechnical), are allowed to perform any work.  One is a Senior Principal ($180/hr) and the other is a Engineering Geologist ($100/hr).  Also, there are parts of that area they refuse to work in, no matter which client, or how many times they are asked.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
I could be mistaken...but it seems I've heard that Architects often sign structural.  Am I way out in left field...or is this true?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

$180 an hour!!! Man, that's more than lawyers make! A geologist making $100 an hour!!! The classic formula has the sinior principal pulling in $360 k/year and the geologist at $200k/year. Awesome!

I would like to say that geotechnical engineering is a lot harder than rocket science. More people have been killed as a result of inadequate geotechnical engineering than inadequate rocket science.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime


...And even more people have been killed by Adequate Rocket Science...

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

DaveVikingPE, I am not sure what formula you are using, but I want to work there for my rate (a slim $90/hr).  That would put me at $180K per year!!!  Too bad it is close to (but over ;)  ) 1/3 of that.

Senseless, about the only non-geotechnical thing I would sign off on is perhaps the structural part of a simple foundation design, or small, cantilevered concrete retaining wall.  However, these are things that I work with all the time and studied in school.  I have also worked directly with structural engineers (multi discipline firm) on projects of that sort. I would not pretend to know enough to sign off on the “structure” of a building, even though I was as much structural as geotechnical in school.  It just isn’t my area of practice.  I understand it, but I do not know all the details.  Did I cover all the seismic requirements, apply all the load combinations, design my connections properly for how the structure was analyzed, etc.

Those are things you learn from working with experienced engineers in the field of practice.  They are not the things to pick up on your own.  Take a look at your states licensing web site.  Likely they will have listed disciplinary actions taken against licensed professionals.  You will see, they can be expensive, and may loose you your license for a while, or for good. If your state doesn’t list them, check NC.  They are good about busting people.  Then think about how you killed someone when your building collapsed, you get sued, you loose your license, and your pal fires you.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I'd say that half of all adequate rocket science is for the express purpose of kiling people, so I fully concur.

A well-known rule of thumb for "how much do you make?" is to take the hourly salary, multiply it by two then by a thousand, thus $180/hr X 2 X 1000 = $360,000/year. And if the $180/hr is just for billing and the company takes 75% of that, you're still pulling in .75 X 360 = $90k/year and that's not bad.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

A billable $180 is probably the norm for defense.  Not that we get even half of that.  There is usually a multiplier called the "wrap rate," that's applied to your hourly rate to get the billable rate.  I've seen wrap rates as high as 3.5:1.  The wrap rate accounts for all the overhead that can be allocated to a contract rate, including admin support, office supplies, rent, utilities, internal research and development, etc.

TTFN



RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Quote (Senselessticker):

Concerning stamping other disciplines...(folks do this all the time..right?).  Its an issue of if you "know your sh**" or not.  I would never stamp anything I didn't feel comfortable stamping.  In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings?

That's dangerous and very concerning.  I assume you would pass the appropriate PE exam first concentrating on structural or MEP.  

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Regarding stamping other disiplines "(folks do this all the time .. right?)"  

No, I do not know of anyone who does it.

Straw Poll

Does anyone know of someone who does this "routinely" or "on-occasion"?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I currently work for an A/E firm. I have had numerous interactions with the Structural, Electrical and Mechanical Engineers who work here. In my opinion, there is too much of a gulf between electrical engineering and the other disciplines for any regular engineer to bridge. I think that you would have to be an extraordinary person to be able to do it.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Oops, check my math... I skipped the 360 - .9 X 360 = 90...

I have been told, as recently as three weeks ago, that, well, since I'm a PE I should know how to engineer a power grid for a city. - that was even after I violently asserted my uncomfortability concerning doing EE work. My final answer: "the reason we have electrical engineers is so they can do electrical engineering; I'm here to do the structural work!" Some PMs, they just don't get it.

PM: These engineers just don't get it! It's not rocket science!

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

It's not uncommon to have incidental work from other disciplines included in your work, and some types of work fall into more than one field.  But to have one guy that does all the electrical and all the structural and all the HVAC and all the architecture, etc., is just not how it's normally done, and with good reason.

Senselesssticker, what state are you in, anyway?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
Please note from my first post that the GC plans to bring myself, an architect, and probably another engineer (PE) on board, and most likely expand from there (designers, CAD operators, project managaers, more engineers, etc...).

In any case, I was hoping to get some feed back from some folks who have taken some risk by joining a small company in a big position such as what I have described.  Instead, it seems, most posts (not all) in this thread would rather make insulting and presumptuous statements.  

Sheeshh...you guys are acting like a bunch of engineers!

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

"Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?"

People are pointing out considerations.  If you were not wanting honest answers from people you should not have asked our opinions.

Here:  It is a chance of a lifetime!!.  Don't even think that there could be downsides as pointed out above.


Does that feel better?

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

SS, I'd have to say the most presumptious statement in this thread came from you, I'm afraid

" In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings?  I imagine it wouldn't take long to learn applicable codes/standards.  "

Is that the standard you apply when stamping something? That a couple of years of reading the codes and standards is enough?





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Well, my boss is one who went to work for a small company and now after these many years, he owns the company and seems to be doing very well at it.  So under the right circumstances, that's definitely a chance worth taking.

The reason I brought up some of the issues that I did is that for this to work, he (and you) have to have a realistic expectation of what is to be done.  I don't do electrical work, but it sounds like this would be a fairly small part of your duties, which means you are essentially changing engineering fields without any formal education to go with it.  That doesn't sound very realistic, and that would make the risk much less worthwhile.

Now, if this guy was an electrical contractor, or ran an electrical consulting firm, I think you'd have a potential heck of a deal.  But that's not the case, which would make me approach it very cautiously.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I agree with Jstephen. In my state, seals are discipline specific and I have not yet heard of anybody stamping outside of their discipline.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Re: hiring other PEs and Architects to do the real work...
Ask yourself this:  Why does he want you if you don't have the experience to start sealing things right out of the gate?  Is it based on the fact that you are friends, and he just wants someone he can put his faith in to run that side of the business?  If his reason is anything other than this, I would question why he wants to pay you to essentially be a figurehead when you don't have the experience to perform the work.  What are his motivations for bringing you on?  I think  you should have a serious conversation with him (if you haven't already) about what his expectations are.  If you are there strictly as a trusted manager, I would say go for it.  There are plenty of successful project managers and executives that don't have a clue what their employees do.

You WILL get into trouble if you seal things for which you are not competent.  Even if something of yours doesn't fall down, you competition will report you to the board.  In fact, they have a duty to.

I would also echo the concerns of the others as far as structural being more complicated than you are giving it credit for.  Get yourself a copy of the LRFD steel manual by the AISC, a copy of an ASD timber design manual set (don't remember the publisher), and a copy of a masonry design manual from the ACI.  If you can read and understand all of these, I'd say you have a shot.  I abandoned my plans of sealing building code deviations for stick built structures after I tried reviewing these materials from my mostly-structural undergrad education.  I'll stick with stormwater where the biggest screw up I can make is causing some flooding.

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

(OP)
Thanks to everyone for all the posts.  I want to make it clear that I have no intention of running around recklessly stamping drawings someday as some have suggested.  And the direction of this thread did not go down the path I was hoping for.  Yes…it would be nice to have the knowledge and competence to stamp other discipline’s drawings someday (however, it is not a job *requirement*).  I’m sure the GC (and potential business partner) would be thrilled if I were able to wear different hats.  And if I become competent in say HVAC design and functionality, and feel comfortable enough to go to court defending my position, and assuming its still legal to sign (which it is in my state), then why shouldn’t I?  I did not intend to sound condescending towards the education, experience, and knowledge that is required to be multi-disciplined.  

We all know there are plenty of licensed engineers out there not worth their weight.  Heck, I work with a few incompetent PE’s who I would not trust to design or build a doghouse.  And I work with some designers who are more competent then the PE he works for.  Hypothetically, I’d rather have a “good” mechanical engineer designing my electrical system of my house/office, than a “bad” electrical engineer.  Engineers, regardless of discipline, should have the ability to learn and adapt to other disciplines, its part of what makes a “good” engineer.  Folks who take no interest in learning about other disciplines (although exposed to it daily), are often difficult to work with due to a lack of knowledge when trying to coordinate (and I consider he/her an example of a “bad” engineer).  Unfortunately, most engineers are not good ones.  

I’m still hoping to hear from some folks who have experience either good or bad with taking a risk by joining someone in a small business with the dream of building a larger business.  What did you do right/wrong?  What was the most difficult hurdle?  

And in response to an earlier post....Yes I believe it is possible to pick the codes, standards, and other methods of design and construction (and perhaps even become “competent” in other disciplines) relatively easily when considering residential or small commercial.  It simply does not take the same level of “know how” and experience as compared to building a nuke plant, manufacturing facility, large research facility, etc... If it did require such a level of expertise….the American dream would be unaffordable.  

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

Unless you are fronting a lot of money, the only risk you are taking is that you might be out of a job for a little while if it doesn't work out.  If the offer is as you've stated it, you'd have to be an idiot not to jump at the chance to make 3x salary.

-b

RE: "Chance" of a lifetime

I'm no structural engineer, but I've been reading about PE responsibilites on the structural engineering other topics forum and I think you're underestimating the amount of work that is required to make a good building.

People are taking this thread in the wrong direction because they see the focus not in the opportunity, but the difficulties that you are not considering.

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