Smart questions
Smart answers
Smart people
Join Eng-Tips Forums
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Member Login




Remember Me
Forgot Password?
Join Us!

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips now!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

Join Eng-Tips
*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.
Jobs from Indeed

Link To This Forum!

Partner Button
Add Stickiness To Your Site By Linking To This Professionally Managed Technical Forum.
Just copy and paste the
code below into your site.

cedent (Structural) (OP)
15 Aug 06 10:02
Recently I was drilled by an architect because our firm's shop drawing stamp did not have an option for "Approved".  Our options are: "Reviewed - Exceptions Noted" and "Reviewed - Resubmitt".  I do understand why we use the word "Reviewed" instead of "Approved", but this was the first time I was questioned about it. I was a bit surprised.

I am curious to know the shop drawing procedures for other firms.  Do you stamp and initial every sheet of the structural steel submittals, for example?

Thanks again,
Claire
jike (Structural)
15 Aug 06 10:41
It has been along time since we discussed this in our firm but I believe your insurance underwriter does not recommend using the word "approve" since it may imply taking on additional liability including the detailer's mistakes.

I would encourage you to talk about the specific wording with your firm's insurance agent for more information.
WillisV (Structural)
15 Aug 06 10:51
I am used to:

Reviewed with No Exceptions
Reviewed with Exceptions as Noted
Revise and Resubmit
Rejected

Where "Reviewed with No Exceptions" is the same intent as "Approved" without the connotations pointed out by jike.
UcfSE (Structural)
15 Aug 06 10:53
I agree with not using the word "approved".  

No exceptions taken.
Exceptions taken as noted.
Rejected/resubmit.
Helpful Member!  JAE (Structural)
15 Aug 06 11:36
Well, for many years my previous firm used  Approved / Not Approved / Revise & Resubmit / Rejected

But then they got word that "approved" was a bad term to use legally and the changed it to what Imolson states above...using the No Exception terms.

Years later, I heard from more than one source that the wording doesn't matter a bit, that what matters is that
1.  You looked at the shop drawings
2.  You either marked it up or didn't mark it up.
3.  You returned it in a timely matter so as not to delay anyone.
4.  You perhaps took additional actions (revised plans, change orders, etc.) as a result of the submittal.

All of these are the "meat" of what the shop drawing review process is about and the wording on the stamp may not mean all that much should your project end up in the lawyers hands.

Even if you use "approved", the concept should be stated below the check boxes saying that the shop drawings were reviewed for general conformance to the plans and specifications and that the contractor is still responsible for meeting the demands of the contract documents.


cedent (Structural) (OP)
15 Aug 06 11:39
Thanks for your confirming comments. We are having an on-going discussion about this in our office.

Do you stamp every sheet of the submittal... or just the first sheet?

Do you copy your marks by hand?


JAE (Structural)
15 Aug 06 11:41
Old firm - stamped every dang sheet.

Today - we only stamp the first sheet of a bound set of anything.

Some of us simply copy the remarks by hand throughout the multiple sets - assuming they aren't too numerous.  If there are a lot of them, we will type out a listing of comments (properly referenced to the detail/sheet in Word and staple that to each set.

JAE (Structural)
15 Aug 06 11:42
I don't think the actual method you use is that key - what's important is that you properly, logically, and clearly communicate your thoughts to the contractor.

cedent (Structural) (OP)
15 Aug 06 11:45
JAE,

Typing the comments out is a good time-saving tip.

Thanks!
jike (Structural)
15 Aug 06 12:31
We used to mark up multiple sheets but haven't done this for a number of years. We keep the marked up copy and send to the GC and fabricator electronically. The GC prints out however many he needs for the field.
archeng59 (Structural)
15 Aug 06 12:53
my stamp reads:  Furnish as submitted; furnish as corrected; rejected; revise and resubmit; submit specific item.  this terminology based on E&O insurance recommendation.

stamp each sheet.  

I redline each sheet of multiple copies.  just recently, one of the reproduction firms in our area started making "red/black" copies of shop drawings.  All of the red ink shows up as red on the copies, everything else shows up black or shade of gray.  saves alot of time transferring marks if there are lots of them.  prefer to spend the $$ for copies and be working on putting out the other fires instead of the mind-numbing transferring of marks.
chichuck (Structural)
15 Aug 06 13:46
additional to archeng59's comments:

by copying the red marks, this is not only mind numbing, but yet one more opportunity to make an error.

A large firm I used to work for is now using computer program to redline drawings:  both the in-house drawings, and electronic images of the submittal.  For these, the software is of the "collabarative" type, that is, it can store multiple sets of red marks from different people, they are consolidated "manually", that is some one reads all the red marks and makes up one final set of electronic red marks on the electronic drawing or image for transmittal.  (This still is a chance to make an error, but it is an improvement on the red pencil method.)

regards,


chichuck
JStephen (Mechanical)
15 Aug 06 14:03
There seems to be a tendence in the engineering world where no one wants to take responsibility for their work, and I think the stamp wording goes along with that idea.

We have jobs where the specifications require us to submit, say, 8 copies of shop drawings.  We'll then get 5 back, each marked up by hand, throw 4 of them away, and make the revisions noted on our original drawings and reproduce.  I've never quite understood the logic in doing things this way.

A typed list of comments is usually easier to deal with on the receiving end, and has the advantage that it can be faxed back to the contractor rather than mailing a whole set of plans.  If comments are minor, it speeds things up all around to have the drawings "approved as noted" (or non-responsibility equivalent) rather than "rejected and re-submit", especially when the review cycles take 60 days or so.  If you have questions on shop drawings, a simple phone call may save weeks of review time on a re-submittal as well.
samdamon (Structural)
16 Aug 06 11:33
This is the stamp we use, on every sheet:

0  furnish as submitted
0  furnish with noted corrections
0  reviewed
0  revise and resubmit
0  rejected

Review, written comments and/or corrections provided by Engineer are solely for checking conformity of the shop drawings with the design concept of the project.  The contractor is responsible for conformity of all shop drawings with all contract documents, confirmation and correlation of dimensions at the project site,selection of construction, erection and fabrication processes, techniques and sequences of construction, and coordination of contractor's work with all other trades.



Date                     By
Loui1 (Structural)
16 Aug 06 13:00
Reviewed with no exeptions taken
Reviewed with exeptions
Revise and Resubmit

Stamp Every Structural Steel Drawing

Get two copies, mark them up, keep one, send the other one back.

Any time I talk contractors they use the term Approved as if I'm taking responsibility for any fabricator errors.  Just refer the architect to the AISC code of practice.
AggieYank (Structural)
16 Aug 06 13:55
1. No exceptions taken
2. Make corrections noted.
3. Amend and resubmit.
4. Rejected.
5. Returned without review.  (For when we get sent handrail submittals, or pavement, etc)

We transfer red marks/comments to all the sets.  It's a pain in the ass if you're stuck doing it, but usually a drafter or intern can transfer them.

We only stamp the front sheet of whatever we're looking at.

And JAE is right, you can say whatever you want on the stamp, but the lawyers probably won't care.  You looked at it, essentially approved it, and now it's screwed up.
archeng59 (Structural)
16 Aug 06 14:43
just curious, how many of you double check the redline transfer after it's finished by the intern or junior engineer?  My old boss never checked my redlines and when I became the boss, I didn't at first.  until an intern failed to transfer marks from our copy to one sheet of the sets returned to the architect/contractor.  luckily, the missing marks were not a big issue, but I started back checking.  that's almost as bad as transferring the marks!  having the red/black copies made is great for me.  most contractors in our area are not keen on the idea of me sending one set of redlines to them and they have to make copies.  dunno why.
Loui1 (Structural)
16 Aug 06 15:21
AggieYank - the structural engineer is not approving anything.  If the contract docs are wrong, thats one thing, but per the code of practice it is not our responsibility to make sure the fabricators shops dont have errors in them.  We are checking for general conformance.

As far as backchecking, it's one of those things you just need to chew people out for if they mess up.  There is no excuse if the intern cant copy marks correctly.  It takes NO experience to copy.  I just make sure my marks are large and obvious.
cedent (Structural) (OP)
16 Aug 06 16:22
We have had two incidents where interns copied marks incorrectly or not at all. We caught them both eventually without and conflict. I agree checking the marks is essential... especially with someone new.

archeng59-
Our contractors provide us multiple copies to start with (hence the problem copying marks to 4 other sets). I don't see the cost difference in the contractor making copies before the mark-ups or after. However, I think we would still have to have three hard copies minimum (one for us, one for the architect, and one for the contractor).

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!

Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close