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PCB Layout Software

PCB Layout Software

PCB Layout Software

(OP)
I am working for a small company that is finally at the step of needing to design a circuit board for one of our projects. Since we will only be doing a couple boards a year I don't need an advanced package. Also we are on a budget due to the low usage of the software. Does anyone have any recommendations for good packages? I have been looking at a package called Proteus from Labcenter Electronics but can't find many reviews on it...has anyone used this package? I've also looking at Cadsoft Eagle and it seems to have mixed reviews.

Thanks, Matt

RE: PCB Layout Software

How complex of a board? If it's not too complex, you could just go with ExpressPCB. The software is free and you send the  designs to them to be manufactured. Up to 4 layers I believe. The downside is that the file format is not compatible with other layout programs if you want to use those in the future, if I recall correctly.

RE: PCB Layout Software

(OP)
Monkeysolder, the boards won't be very complicated, probably double-sided with under 500 pins. One thing I didn't mention is I would like software with simulation capabilites if possible. Proteus VSM has micro sim which is partly why I was looking at it. I also would rather have my own software and not be limited to one company producing my board.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Don't mix those functions... You will be sorry.  It's hard enough for those companies to get the schematic capture/layout right let alone tossing in a completely different animal.

  "Yes sir, I want to keep my guinea pigs in with the rhinoceroses."

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: PCB Layout Software

Have a look at Pulsonix too.  Thye used to have good prices in the past, especially if the designs were not too complex.  They had their simulator too.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Have you looked at Eagle? I guess it is free... :\
But no simulation habilities :(

RE: PCB Layout Software

...Or EasyPC by Number One Systems.  I still use their DOS-based package (£94 in 1990), but they have "everything" now, including simulation and schematic capture.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Hiya-

If you want CHEAP, you can't get much cheaper than PCB
which is FREE.  It is available on sourceforge.net and
only runs on 'nix boxen.  No windoze.

I have used it for about 3 or 4 years, and I have watched it
evolve. There is an assoicated schematic capture called
"geda" I believe, but I haven't used it.

PCB, like any other software, is a matter of getting used to.
If you are used to it, it works "well".  If it is new, then
it can be "strange and different". YMMV.

For me, however, the interface seemed intuitive and I have
only had to refer to the manual a couple of times.  *NOT*
like my Mentor efforts!

They also claim to have auto routing on PCB, but again,
I haven't used it.  I prefer to route my own traces.

Produces standard Gerber files as well as postscript. Does
8 layers out of the box. Drill and assembly guide, and
ACTIVELY maintained.

Of course, linux, or FreeBSD is free, so all you need is
some sort of old PC, monitor, keyboard, mouse and a little
effort to get it all whomped up together.

Hope this helps.

  Cheers,

   Rich S.

RE: PCB Layout Software

(OP)
I have looked into Eagle and it does seem like a decent package (except no sim). Does anyone have any experience using this package? I have seen mixed reviews about it. I also looked at Pulsonix and it looks like a great package but they get a little expensive. I'm looking for something for around 1k or under. And I prefer to stay with windows-based, I've never used Linux. I'll have to look into EasyPC.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Never used it much, but take a look at Electronics Workbench ( http://www.electronicsworkbench.com/ ).  It was reasonably priced in the past, don't know about now.  They have a 45-day demo that's somewhat limited on the parts count side (50 components, 750 pins and 2 layers).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: PCB Layout Software

We've used Eagle and it seems to be a good solution, especially with the routing features and low cost. I don't think that you'll need anything too fancy with a small board that gets spun only few times a year. I've been with a few places that have subsisted on ExpressPCB for many years before needing to switch software.

If you are only making a few boards each year, which I would assume have the same design, a simulation package may be unecessary, as you could just debug it and revise the board. Simulation up front doesn't guarantee that the board will work... sometimes you just have to build it.

What type of board is it? Power, Signal Processing, relays?

RE: PCB Layout Software

(OP)
The board will be for signal processing. My company does only R&D so a few boards will be designed a year only for prototypes. I downloaded Eagle and the basic features seem great and it's easy to figure out. If I went with Eagle is there any recommendations on simulation software for transient analysis and AC/DC sweeps?

RE: PCB Layout Software

I wouldn't bother with a simulator unless there is some reason why you can't breadboard your design. Simulation doesnt make the job easier it makes it much harder so you need a very good reason for using it.

RE: PCB Layout Software

If you are still convinced that you ABSOLUTLY MUST simulate, take a look at LTSpice.  There is a yahoo group for it that can point you in the right direction and also provide a lot of support.  The word I recieved is that it is the best of the free simulation packages.

Bewarned, though, as the above posts allude to, relying on a simulation will often times send you in the wrong direction.  You are much better served by understanding the parts that you are using and following good design practices.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Second the mention of LTspice. It is a little
quirky but you can do a lot with it once you get the
learning curve out of the way.
The discrete parts database is very small but you can
add parts to it without a lot of trouble. The best
reason to learn it is that it is free and reliable.

RE: PCB Layout Software

I have to disagree with Cbarn about simulator making
your job much harder.
IF you know how to use it, and its limitations, and have
enough analog knowledge to begin with it can make some
designs much faster than monkeying with solder.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Hi 2dye4, I suppose it depends how bad your soldering tecnique is. There are 2 main areas where simulation is useful, chip design and education, just about everywhere else it's pretty much hopeless.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Cbarn

I have done it both ways for years. I have found I can
get a project working quicker by simulating some of the
tricky parts and then building a real one with less
worries. I still make stuff with discrete parts as it
can get me better performance than IC's in some cases.

I realize spice is of little use for just IC stitching.
All you need is data sheets.

I hold out the opinion that some may benefit in the long
run from learning to use spice so I tend to speak up in
its defence occasionally.

Also remember back when physical systems were simulated
by building a circuit to model it. (Analog Computer),
well spice knowledge would allow one to use it as a
general purpose simulator if one were adapt enough to
break a physical system down into equivalent electrical
components.
Many spice programs now have so many added macro parts
to do sophisicated mathematical functions that it is now
even more usefull than the basic versions for use beyond
the electronics realm.

RE: PCB Layout Software

Hi, I think you've pretty much made my point for me. I dont know what your definition of "tricky" is, maybe you could elaborate. You make it sound like you throw a circuit together, simulate it to see if it does what you want, make some changes and repeat untill you get the desired result. It may be your way but its not mine. If it works for you thats fine.

RE: PCB Layout Software

For instance
Today i making a layout of circuit that must have a
timing pulse generation with an accuracy/repeatability
of less than 30nS. Meaning i need a sequence of 2 pulses
with durations less than a clock cycle of a PIC and need
it to be repeatable to 30ns.
I have ordered the empty pcb without building a prototype
because of the difficulty of working with these dammm
&^^$&$# tiny surface mount parts.
I would not have very comfortable ordering this PCB without
testing my concept with a simulation.
I guess I could have done the calculations by other means
to verify the design but I don't see the point, thats what
spice is for, to do the calculations.
And of course I know the work is not done as I have not
modeled the trace capacitances of my pcb so I will have to
modify the final component values with a O-scope and do
some  trial and error finish work. But I have a set of
values to start with that will put me very close in the
ball park thanks to my spice simulation.

So, give me an example of how spice has cost me time.

RE: PCB Layout Software

As I said before, if there is a reason why you cant breadboard your design then spice is better than nothing. How much time did it take you? How well have you modeled it? I guess you already had the component models otherwise you would have had to spend alot more time, and of course you still dont know if it will work. Bear in mind as well the originator of this thread is not an expert like you, how long would you guess it would take him?

RE: PCB Layout Software

It took me about 30 min.
I guess for me it comes down to this line of thinking.

If you don't use spice I ask if before you begin a circuit
design do you need to make any calculations to create or
verify the design. If not then I guess it is  a simple
circuit. If you do calculate then I might suggest using
a spreadsheet to ease the burden of getting the numbers.
Or spice.

If you do not have faith in ability of spice to reasonably
model your parts, do you have better models running in your
head. If so why don't you publish a paper and become
famous. If you don't have better models in your grey
matter then why not use spice??

Of course spice is not for everybody. I just think it is
something that eventually proves beneficial to all
electrical engineers that practice their calling.
And I see no reason to discourage people from trying it
for themselves. They can each decide if it is usefull
to them or not.


I still can't get to understanding how a person can
calculate the response of a circuit faster,easier with
any other tool than spice.

We should get back to the original question posted by
mlarson about EDA and maybe start our own thread about
this if it is of interest to anyone.

later


RE: PCB Layout Software

Hi again, the reason you did it quickly (aside from being an expert) is that you didnt actually simulate your circuit. What you did was a quick aproximation and then built a prototype which your now going to test and hope it works, so in prctice you do actally agree with me.

RE: PCB Layout Software



Have a look at "Easy PC ".

Cheap U.K based software that has been around for several years.

Regards

analogue alan
 

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