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Arguing without getting emotional
7

Arguing without getting emotional

Arguing without getting emotional

(OP)
My position as an engineer is really between the two tales. I'm the guy who take over the R&D idea and make it work. This involves assisting the R&D people on how to design thing that is manufacturable, cheap, easy to assemble, etc. I found my self that if I don't catch their mistakes then it is my fault. If I do catch their mistakes, I still have to fix it due to various reason like the product is way down the line and the tooling is already built, etc. Now here is the real issue, I always get pumped up whenever I get to the meeting and talked with these guys trying to convince them to change the design a little bit to accomodate for better cost, assembly, service, etc. It seems like no matter how I present the fact, I always got my self in the arguing mode that at the end I wanted to kick his butt so badly.

How do you present the fact without getting emotional and still being able to convince them. And if you do get into a debate, how do you stay calm and not take things personally.

Anyone has similar situation and how to cope this?

Kinsrow

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Ideally be clear and concise. I find that some quick points on what you want to change and why you want to do so, works. If they have counter arguments, take those into account, never assume that your view is always the right one.

Also people will always argue against doing more work if they're lazy. If they have no valid reason for arguing and if the responsibility ultimately rests on you, what you say goes.

In extreme cases don't even bother listening, unless their comments are substantial.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Its hard not to get emotional when you are trying to persuade people to do something.

Always stick to the facts, and ask them "If you do it this way, what are the advantages?" when you are trying to change their method.

Then present your ideas, backing them up with the cost savings, easier assembly, etc.

Its not an easy thing to do, but when you can pull it off, its worthwhile.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

If I have a good argument, and have proof to back me up, I always send it in writing (memo or email) first, and save it. So, If others ignore me and problems pop up later and fingers are pointed my way, I show the letter.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Keep a cool head and don't get angry, no matter what.  Enthusiasm and passion can be a good thing, within limits.  Get therapy if this is a continuing problem because it will most likely drive you nuts and hurt your career.  If you have the responsibility from company management to make designs manufacturable, then request that the mgt give you the authority (can be as simple as a verbal message from the boss to the troops).  Learn conflict management , patience, and "the tricks" that are used to maneuver through the human emotional quagmire.

For example, I had to derail a poor design by a young, emotional "I'm right all the time" design engineer.  I was a team member, but not his authority figure.  But I needed to preserve his ego to be effective on the team.  All the other gray haired guys with shop floor experience knew it wouldn't work long term, but he wouldn't back down, even though he was outnumbered.  I requested we build a prototype to prove his design, and run a long-term design validation.  System failed, as we all knew it would.  The deisgn was killed, his ego was preserved, he learned an inexpensive lesson.  He may actually be a decent engineer one of these days.

TygerDawg

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Facts and data, facts and data.

Start with the facts (what it is).  Continue with what you want (what it should be).  Follow up with data (cost was/is, assembly time was/is).

Then the important part... listen.  They may or may not have valid arguments.  Do not interject; take notes and hit their bullets after they are done.

Works for me...

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Try to get involved earlier in the design process if possible, especially before tooling needs to change.  Like others have said, as long as you are armed with facts and data and listen to their reasoning, there should be no need to get emotional.

Perhaps try to share your DFM/DFA experience before a project gets started.  It's a constant battle, but one you shouldn't have to be stressed out over.  Everyone should be on the same team when it comes to cost reduction and DFM/DFA.  My question would be why they are so resistant to change the design?  Are your suggestions too engrossing, or difficult to achieve based on the status of a project?  Are there aesthetic concerns that are impacted by your suggestions that are more important to others than savings?

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Tyger,
ahhh I remember being that young, arrogant prick ;). It's a good thing that I kept my mouth shut though, b/c the oldster techs and engineers eat guys like that for breakfast.
It's actually kinda funny to watch it happen, especially if the young guy has no sense of humor and behaves like a spoilt child hehehe. Ahhh I wait in anticipation to be one of the oldsters so that I can have my fun ;) .

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Maybe the fact that you titled this thread arguing without getting emotional rather than discussing without getting emotional says a lot?

No one likes being told what to do or their ideas are wrong, but if it is put over in an aggressive way they are more likely to fight back and hey presto you have an argument rather than a discussion.

One thing I learned a long time ago is never “argue” a point or discipline anyone when you are angry.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Passion is good, over emotion is not.  

Use it as a tool to show that you care about the outcome.

TTFN



RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Ever heard of the win-win situation?  I have a corollary to that called the win-thinks he won situation.  There's two ways to do this:

1.  Make it his idea - have pre-tooling meetings with the R&D team for review.  Ask for ideas on how it can be streamlined further down the production process.  Guide them towards what you know is best.  When they come up with your idea, congratulate them for it and make a big deal out of implementing it.  This will make them feel good about the current project AND encourage them to contribute more on future products.

2.  Let him talk you down - come in with inflated requests and changes.  Let him "talk sense into you".  When you begrudgingly aquiesce, he has won, but he has talked you down to the level you orignally wanted anyway.

I prefer the first method and use it most often.  I use the second method with someone who is particularly belligerent and aggressive.  With this method, it's even OK to let things get heated - you know you're going to "lose" the argument anyway.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Kinsrow,
I was wondering if you have a Configuration Control Board (CCB).  It is always good to have a third party involved when design concerns arise.  The board should consist of people who represent all facets of your company (Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Manufacturing, Planning, Buyers …etc).  If you want to bring up ECOs that you feel will benefit the company/design, this is the group to make that decision.  What ever the decision, you have to accept it.  So, if you have beef with somebody, you can take your case to the CCB.  If this does not help, maybe some anger management classes will help.  I’m not joking, my last boss was ordered to take it or resign, to make a long story short he resigned.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

(OP)
Thank you for all of your input. I stayed with facts, the whys, etc. Occasianlly, I would bring re-enforcement from operator and assembly line. I tried not to do often due to the fact that it would create more hostile environment. Here is one of the case. The product is in pilot stage and one of the snap features don't work. they are too hard.  We had "discussion" about how to fix it, but at the end they said it's too late to change to tooling I had to make a special tool for it. Granted, I took over this process from other guy got pulled over to new project. I too think that this kind of problem should be dealt earlier. There are many cases like this that I had to double and triple check their work to make sure it is OK and when it is not OK I couldn't force them to change it and I had to fix it.  

Kinsrow

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Perhaps part of your problem is that your system is not designing for manufacturability.  Involve the line guys at the beginning of the design, get their input, get their buy-in.  Everyone might actually learn something and improve the overall process.

TTFN



RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Sounds like a similar situation to what I and others in my group regularly experience.

Do you have management backing?  If so it will be a lot easier.  If you are fighting both management and the personnel then it's difficult to see an easy way to win.

If you have the possibily why not try and institute some DFMA training or guidlines.  We've written a 2 page summary of some major points to try and get people thinking, it's too early to tell yet if it's worked but we do occasionally get people coming by asking good questions.

This may not solve the arguments but at least it's being proactive.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

(OP)
I think the problem is the culture of the company. It almost looks like they only focused on the designing the concept without looking further ahead down the line. Last time we have DFMA training, only non R&D people were involved. I was shocked that only 1 or 2 Product Engineering people were there.  I talked to several people who have been with the company more than 20 years and they said it was always like this. To make things interesting, our department used to be under their management so it is like saying without them there's none of us....:).

This I can't control, but my attitude toward them I can...and that's what I'm trying to get better at it.

Kinsrow

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

I didn't get past the second post in this thread.

Ziggi,

Fact, I argue against taking on more work all the time. I'm loaded to about 300% of my capacity juggling regulatory projects with too close deadlines.

Folks with much lighter loads trying to push stuff off on my dosen't fly well. They get annoyed, I wish they'd get on a real project or at least quit trying to turn discretionary (read somebody's hobby project) into a full time job.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Ziggi has a good point (obnoxious as it was), some people like to "spin-up" others just for sport.  I recall being nose to nose with one of the managers, both of us red faced, neither of us backing down then realized we were arguing for the same thing.  I brought that to his attention, and we both backed down as if we won.

Try to apporoach the subject as a risk/benefit.  Not just your risk and benefit, but the company/program risk and benefit.  

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Too keep a cool head while arguing just realize you are a mercenary employed by a corporation to get product X into the marketplace.  The outcome of the argument is almost totally irrelevant in the grand scheme and will make no difference in the condition of the world in 50 years.  That's the nihilist perspective, and how I get through each day.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Word of the day
ni·hil·ism  
Pronunciation: 'nI-(h)&-"li-z&m, 'nE-
Function: noun
Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing -- more at NIL
1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2 a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination
- ni·hil·ist  /-list/ noun or adjective


proletariat which are you?

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

3
I agree with tygerdawg.  NEVER lose your cool.  Keeping your cool gives you a huge edge over those who cannot.  If you know a meeting is going to be intense, arm yourself with as many facts as possible prior to the meeting and be prepared for whatever resistance you may encounter during.  Never insult anyone's intelligence or ideas (even if you and everyone else know he/she is a moron!).

When a big meeting is approaching, I usually make a list anticipated questions/concerns/problems which may come from the other side of the table.  Then I make a list of my responses which can be supported by documentation.  I usually have the documents handy at the meeting.  Of course, only about 5% of the time are the documents actually needed.  But when you need it….its like having an Ace in the Hole.  Present the info with enthusiasm and be careful not to insult anyone.  Only present what’s needed to win the point (don’t beat someone in the ground and embarrass him/her).  

Swearingen posted some good ideas.  Other options are:

1.    Play a little dumb when someone suggest something that you KNOW will not work.  Say something like: “I like that idea!  But need to (investigate/confirm/research – whatever the appropriate word) a little before I buy into it.”  Some time after the meeting send and email or phone call with documentation supporting WHY it will not work.  Let the other person know that you spent time seriously considering his/her idea (even if you didn’t).   Offer praise for his/her idea, and let them down gently.  

2.    As mentioned above, be prepared for resistance.  Anticipate tough questions/concerns and argue your position with respect and tact.  Smile while your doing it!  

3.    Realize that your idea may not be the best idea on the table, and concede with respect and gratitude to the opposition when appropriate.  

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Just a coupl eof points:

1) One thing to remember is to avoid the following (or similar):

"Your design will not work because of X.  You'll need to adopt my solution to fix it."

There are always many solutions.  A clear statement of the problem is worth so much more than a vague one accompanied with one must-do solution.


2) One of the previous posts mentions putting things in writing.  I couldn't agree more.  To accurately explain a problem in writing is to half solve it.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

kontiki,
I don't believe I mentioned those with a huge workload in there.
monkeydog,
Obnoxious? I dunno, but I do have a mean streak ;)

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Quote (monkey):

Word of the day
ni·hil·ism  
Pronunciation: 'nI-(h)&-"li-z&m, 'nE-
Function: noun
Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing -- more at NIL
1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2 a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination
- ni·hil·ist  /-list/ noun or adjective


proletariat which are you?

Depends on the day, but mostly #1.  Also, only with regard to work, not life in general.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

"The Prince" by Machiavelli should be required reading for any cynic empolyed in the corporate world.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

"Dilbert and the Way of the Weasel" by Scott Adams is also good for understanding ones role in the corporate world.  

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Word for the day:  WE
Don't you guys all get a check from the same bank account?  
Approaching a problem for the "me" and "you" perspective is a headstart to an arguement.  

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

There is a difference between "losing your cool" and "firing for effect."  

Oftentimes managers tirade just to shake people up a bit.

TTFN



RE: Arguing without getting emotional

For practice try arguing with the obtuse guys over on the Inventor forum against their beloved Autodesk product. Its a hoot!

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

(OP)
IRstuff,

What I would like to get better is exactly "firing for effect without loosing my cool"...

Kinsrow

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

In my book: "firing for effect" and "loosing your cool" is the same.  Expressing anger in the workplace (for any reason) shows a lack of self discipline and lack of professionalism.  The manager who can achieve the same results without expressing frustration/anger is of great advantage when compared to the manager who must throw a tantrum to get his people to work.  

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Kinsrow, having all your facts and figures, especially in a logical easy to follow document etc as a number of people have suggested may help.

However, somtimes people will not be disuaded from their viewpoint just because of a minor point like the fundamental laws of physics etc.

The really good thing about having it in writing and some how dated (email or formal memo etc) is that when the realization that the laws of physics can't be broken dawns and if they decide to find whose fault it was your ass is asbestos.

Of course this may not make you popular but hey.

All I can say is good luck and I feel your pain, just remember as they used to say a lot at my last place, "if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined".smile

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

The one who gets emotional looses the discussion.
There is no reason for becoming emotionally attached
to your solution.
Tell the engineers your concerns. Then listen intently.
If you hear anything to change your mind rethink it
quickly. If not look at them calmly and say that you
understand their concern but that you want them to
do it your way. Say it with a unspoken demenour that
conveys finality. Politely insinuate the discussion is
over. After all you have the responsibility for the
the design. Don't let it become an excuse for them to
shirk responsibility either by avoiding decision making.
Your final judgement doesn't mean they can turn off their
brain. You expect the task to be carried out in a good
faith effort in the manner you desire.

This may take a training period if their is a history of
argument, but things will be better when they know you
will not argue, either you do as told or suffer the
results at review time. OR SOONER

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Kinsrow,

It takes 2 parties to get into an emotional arguement. If you take yourself out of the equation, then the arguement cannot get emotional. You are left with one person ranting - and after a while, that gets old.

An arguement is not a bad thing. I hear a lot of people say arguement is bad. I look at it as 2 sides caring enough to talk it out.

When an arguement/discussion/debate whatever gets heated, you simply stop, listen, and wait. When the other side stops, you can begin again.

If one side keeps saying no no no, then ask them what it will take to say yes. If you can't make it work, ask them how they would make it work. This way, you involve the naysayer and make them part of the solution. It usually ends up with a workable solution. Not always though.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

I frequently use one technique that is called "managing in the corridors of indiference" and I believe that it can be applied in your case.
This basically says the following: If you have a major change to be done, split in small ones and pass it without strong reaction.
In you case:
There are a lot of changes that need to be done in the design. If you just present the bulk of the changes, most probably the reaction will be:"No way!!!".
With this technique you will do the following steps:

-Analyze the changes, see whcih ones are really important for you and separate from the others that :"It would be nice to have it, but I can survive without it";
-Try to realize which are the changes that the other party is willing to do and which ones you can expect more resistance;
-Pass first the ones that have a low conflict level (you can put now and then a hot topic, just to feel the mood);
-Finally try to negotiate the hot topics.

Eventually you will not be able to pass all your ideas, but you can get a quite good % of changes passed and the ones that are not accepted will eventually not be important for you. Remember, eventually a change that you find as critical, might be an acceptable change from the other party.

Other point that I usually use is the $$$ issue. Try to value the changes that you are proposing. If the finantial impact is big, it is a huge point in your favour. If it is meaningless it can also show to you that eventually the change is not so significant.

Above all, don't be stubborn and accept that others might have valuable ideas too.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

You cannot expect to only use one approach to get everyone going.  Different people require different tools.  Some people, unfortunately, will not get moving without great effort.  Others are more reasonable.  Some require tirades, others require honey.


Engrained culture is a difficult nut to crack.  Rather than trying to impose a structure or process "from the top", try to get the masses involved directly.  

Set up "tiger" teams without your involvement to deal with the next problem and empower and task them to solve the problem.  Then follow through with actual and tangible improvements and money to make the necessary changes.  Most people supposedly know what the right procedure is, but need the right forum and situation to "buy in."  note that any hesitation on the part of upper management will put the kibosh on the whole process.

DFMA, DFT, CE etc., mostly failed because it is almost trivially obvious that while the managment might "talk the talk," they don't "walk the walk."  Therefore, if you're serious, you need to be serious and do serious.

TTFN



RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Sometimes the other side is reluctant to get involved because from their point of view there isn't a problem to be solved. Approach the meeting with the view that you are going to reach a conclusion that works for you. Start of by presenting the reasons why you think you need something doing differently. Suggest a way of doing it that works for you and ask how hard it would be to implement from their point of view. Ask what you can do to make it easier for them to fix the problem you've presented. Allow them the opportunity to present an alternative solution. Above all, do not let them deny that there is a problem that they can help solve.

If they absolutely refuse to move on the problem this time around, switch the argument to a lessons learned point of view and a "how can we prevent ourselves ending up in this argument next time? what can I do to help you at the start of the project so you don't have to listen to my moans when we get to this stage again?"

And if that doesn't work, find a new job!

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Quote:

How do you present the fact without getting emotional and still being able to convince them. And if you do get into a debate, how do you stay calm and not take things personally.

One thing I've noticed through the years is that when I find myself in an emotional argument at work, it's because I am arguing with someone who, like me, cares about the work they do. Yes, it's the ol' touchy-feely, I'm okay-you're okay, "we're both playing for the same team" point.

By keeping this in mind, though, it's really helped to keep things in perspective and allowed me to learn to listen to what the other person is saying.  And by shutting my mouth, taking a deep (silent) breath and listening carefully, I usually accomplish one or more of the following:
1) realize that we are both arguing the same point, but said  in different ways,
2) find enough common ground or compromises that can help to resolve the argument and move toward a resolution,
3) catch the other person using straw-man arguments, circular logic or the like, which are sometimes very difficult to pick up on in the heat of the battle,
4) think about how I can phrase the next comment to be non-aggressive/non-personal,
5) and last, but not least, give myself the opportunity to be awarded the same respectful listening-to that I just gave the other person by saying "okay, now it's my turn...."

One thing I do have a major problem with is arguing against the person with "not-invented-here" syndrome.  These people really put my patience to the test.  But another tool I've learned to use successfully is levity.

My favorite example of this was responding to a venerable, older employee telling me that "we've done it this way since we were Company 'X' and it's always worked" by asking "isn't Company 'X' the one that went bankrupt?"  A meaningless joke with a quick wink or smile, or both, go a long way to bring the stress level of these meetings down.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Ahh...The struggles of a great Strategist.  If only everyone would do everything exactly as you want them to, the world would be a much better place.  Unfortunately, you do not have any control over people, places, or things.  Although you may have great ideas, and you may "know" that they are the right thing to do, it would take a true visionary to help you implement them.  An unlikely ally in the design profession.  It is surely maddening if you are codependent.
If something burns your ass, you had better figure out what makes your ass flammable.  Is it an overactive ambition, a fear of being unsuccessful, a false sense of pride or entitlement?  
The only thing you can do is effectively communicate your ideas, both up and down the line.  Some of your ideas are most likely great, but for various reasons will never come to fruition.  Take it seriously, but not personally.  These are things, at least for the time being, that you cannot control.  Accept it or move on.  Do not empathize with others agitation; match calamity with serenity.  Do not become a nihilist, find your Zen.  Join a gym.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

If you are thinking about the the viewpoits and sensitivities of the other folks while you're in the meeting (as it sounds like you are), that is 99% of the battle.

You can control what you do, not what they do. If you stay calm and do your best to communicate your thoughts nonconfrontationally, that's the most you can do. Trying to do more and showing impatience or anger will usually be counterproductive (I should know).

Another thing to bear in mind is that your impatience shows not only in your words, but also the tone (pitch) of your voice, the pace of your words (jumping in without allowing someone else to finish), and your body language.  To convey calmness on all those levels, you have to really be calm (not just try to act calm).

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

I guess my advice about communicating your thoughts kind of left out the part about genuinely listening to the others with a view to understanding.  Obviously important as well as was noted.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

I say hit him. You will feel much better.

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

I dont see a special problem about getting "emotional" as long as it just isnt a cover up for the following:

-Being patronizing (we engineers often tend to do this)
-Digging trenches
-Unconstructive critisims that the recipient cant use to solve the problem
-Done in public so that the recipient will be embarassed

Best regards

Morten

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

Kinsrow you are in a tough spot.

One thing I've noticed is people don't like having their work ripped apart and redone by someone else or even have it suggested that it needs to be redone.

The tough part is you seem like the person who has to make the thing work despite the fact you didn't create the problem. You probably would have seen the problem with the design before it went from paper to physical form because you have the ability to see problems before they happen, when they are happening and after the damge is done.

The people who caused the problems you are fixing are scared of you because they can't figure out what you naturally and through experience can see.Biggest problem is they are scared of you because you are probably either much smarter or just have common sense. If you have an aggresive personality its only going to make it much worse.

Try reflecting the tone you are being given in meetings while maintaining a level emotional feeling.  If someone is talking loudly respond in kind. If someone is talking slowly slow your speech down. Don't ever let people's stupidity affect your attitude, rise above it.

Whats the saying about trying to wrestle a pig...

RE: Arguing without getting emotional

If one particular person is combative, emotional, etc, be carefull!
 I worked with a person like that, I actually got promoted big because I was stable and could bring work to fruitation.
 Problem was after time it became bromide that "he gets away with that because of you" "he wouldn't say that if you didn't let him get away with it" in other words he was my fault!

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