Question for the guys ....
Question for the guys ....
(OP)
Ok this might be a little off-topic for this board, but I'm going to post it anyways.
Lets say your wife makes more money than you and you decide to have kids. She doesn't want to quit her job to be a stay at home mom. Would you quit your job as an engineer to stay home with the kids or hire a babysitter to watch them all day?
Just a quick question to soothe my curiousity.
Personally, I would stay home and be a part-time student, and get my masters and doctorate while watching the kids until they are old enough to start school. Then I would get back into an engineering job. I think I'd really enjoy the time off.





RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
Wife makes more than me. I'm in the process of going back to school.
Works out well and kids are great! All honors at school.
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: Question for the guys ....
Then get an engineering job with your newly-minted degrees that will allow "mother's hours?"
Your salary
Your wife's salary
Pay for babysitting
How much is it worth to you to raise your own children?
Realize all this speculation is out the window when the maternal hormones kick in.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: Question for the guys ....
Just do what works best for you and consider everything. School doesn't last 8 hours, so if you plan on being at home while they are not in school then you'll need a part time job. Good luck finding a part time engineering job.
Let's not turn this into a discussion about bad parents have baby sitters or vice versa.
RE: Question for the guys ....
I'd also stay at home and study part-time, or setup a side business, I'd PREFER it actually. However my situation is different, my wife wants to be a stay at home mom, which is fine by me, I'd rather that our kids be raised by their parents not by some stranger.
RE: Question for the guys ....
bradpa77, have you spent much time with toddlers? I certainly could not stay at home and be a part-time student when I was with my preschool kids. In my way of thinking, the object is to spend time with the kids, not ignore them and let the TV do the babysitting. A stay at home dad is a fulltime job. I am not sure where you are going to get the time and energy to do the school thing, be with your kids, keep the house in order, prepare the meals, and save some time for your wife.
RE: Question for the guys ....
The issue runs deeper than you may wish...What you really have to ask yourself is: Are you comfortable sacrificing part of your career (and possible future finicial security) while your spouse advances her own?
I would not put myself in a vunerable situation which would require me to be dependent on my spouse finicially...it seems a little irresponsible when considering the likelihood of seperation/divorce/etc...
This post may seem a little harsh, but you certainly must consider the "worst case scenerio", just like you do in engineering...
RE: Question for the guys ....
A couple of other issues that would come into play are how your wife feels about it all and how much money you need (as opposed to how much you make).
I would not anticipate accomplishing a lot on a graduate degree while being a stay-at-home parent- we'd probably have a lot more PhD's if that could easily be done.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Not put yourself in a situation where you are financially dependent upon your spouse? Worst case scenario like an engineering situation? I'd like to see you sell that to your future wife or explain it to your current one w/o losing your teeth or other vital body parts. :)
I do some hobby stuff on the side and if I could stay home and watch my boys, make a little cash flow from the hobby and let the wife work and bring home the bacon, if that is what she wanted to do, I'd be Mr. Mom in a heartbeat!!!
Brian
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
bradpa77, just make sure you are protecting "your" ability to provide for the family (especially if children are going to be involved).
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
With girls you get another shot a selling them off for good money at around 17 or 18. The boys you've got to get rid of early.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Wow!!! I really opened up a can of worms here didn't I? This is kind of funny actually. It was actually just a "what if" kind of question. It really wasn't meant to cause arguements there people. Sheesh.
RE: Question for the guys ....
By that logic, neither men nor women should ever be stay-at-home parents. Bring on the au pairs.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Question for the guys ....
Yes. Why?
What are 'mother's hours'? I don't understand. I'm fine with having an after school babysitter once they get to school age if that's what you are talking about. I just would like to have one of us parents at home with the kids during the day until they reach a certain age.
It's worth a break in my career if my wife isn't willing to do the same. It's actually worth a lot to me. I don't really knock people who have babysitters at early ages, but that's just not the way I would like to start a family really.
Are you saying you think she'll change her mind and want to stay home once she has kids? That could possibly happen. I've wondered about that actually.
RE: Question for the guys ....
I have spent lots of time with toddlers, yes. I realize how much time they take up.
Engineering is a full time job too and people get their upper level degrees while working AND having kids at home.
RE: Question for the guys ....
From the experience of several friends/family of mine I would say it's a definite possibility that she may change her mind.
Plus depending how much experience you've had with kids lately you may find you're not as good at it/enjoy it as much as you thought.
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
Back to my previous comments: Make sure you are protecting your ability to provide financial security for the family in case "she" decides she wants to be a soccer mom instead of career mom. Giving "her" the choice/ability makes "her" happy, which we all know is all that really matters :) ...if you intend on staying hitched that is!
RE: Question for the guys ....
Of course I do not have kids and who knows how that would change my mind.
RE: Question for the guys ....
This is not a design problem per se. It is more of a reactive maintenance problem. You can predict several scenarios and prepare POSIBLE solutions but it would be unwise to commit to one over the others before you have to. e.g. say you are 6 months out. That 6 mos is not a hard deadline for this decision. As some of the others have intimated, operating parameters may not remain constant. Your wife may decide to stay home and that is not something that can be predicted. God Forbid, but your wife may need extended care and not be able to earn a living for a while.
I would keep both jobs in the time leading up to the birth and shortly afterwards to allow the system to approach equilibrium. But if your overriding priority is for one of you to remain at home, and you commit yourself to finding the solution that best fits the situation, there is no reason not to do it. Your family will be better off and happier.
BTW, I worked nights as an ET while getting my Master's. My wife and I were on the same page and worked it out together, and we're both happier now. It's not easy, but if I can do it so can you - if you want it bad enough.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Several at my office have switched to second shift after children, so they can "Dad" in the mornings.
* please not the use of the term 1/2 time, in lieu of part time.
Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...
RE: Question for the guys ....
Welcome to 2006.
I am assuming from your entries that you and your spouse are in the US. If so, find yourself a decent daycare in your community and do what +90% of middle class American families do.
I find the "who is raising the children" question, ridiculous and insulting to millions (yes millions) of families. I have also found that those who have raised the question, either have no children, have already raised their families or have an unrealistice perception of today's families.
As for "staying at home a continuing your education"; good luck - sounds good in theory let us know how that works out for you.
jjf1
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
I think a couplf of posters said something along the lines of "you can't trust your wife to support the family", or don't put yourself in that position.
That sounds a bit chauvinistic does it not?
How many posters have a wife dependent on them to support the family?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
corus
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
Yeah, we all know that 1/2 time = working 80+ hrs/wk for 40hrs/wk pay.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Senselessticker,
I would never marry someone if I didn't completely trust them and also respect them. The idea that a man wouldn't want to be a stay at home dad is understandable to me--the idea that his reason would be because he doesn't want to sacrifice part of his career for his wife in case she leaves him (or he leaves her) is shocking and utterly alien to me.
And, on the issue of pursuing a degree while you have children, come on people! Plenty of people in grad school have children. I know a dozen people that raised children while in school, with the other parent also in school or working. Of course it can be done. It's just a ton of work.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Let's assume the mother works and the dad stays at home for a couple years. One day the mother decides she no longer wants a career...(this happens often you know). Now you have a problem. Specifically... a financial problem. Although the dad only lost a couple years of experience, he has really lost than that when considering the potential advancement that has been missed. Assuming he can find a job...its going to take a couple of years to "ramp up" and get the career moving again. Now he is 5+ or so years behind in wages and experience.
The idea being: It is much more likely that a mother/woman will want to suddenly give up on a career than it is likely that a man/dad would want to suddenly give up on a career. The probability of financial stability within the family is greatest when the man keeps his career moving independently of the woman's choices with her career/motherhood/etc... If the man's/dad's career is stable and constantly moving forward, then the woman/mother never gets trapped into being the primary bread winner where her choices become limited.
Regardless of how quickly the American culture is changing; some traditional gender roles will always dominate. I think its due to something we call: "nature".
RE: Question for the guys ....
There are definitely some women who once the baby comes along decide to put their career on hold, regardless of previous plans.
I suspect there are a few men that do the same though I can’t say I’ve seen it.
The thread was ‘Question for the guys’ with a title like that you’re asking for a male point of view which in many cases is likely to be deemed sexist by at least some.
Senseless Ticker may be a bit blunt for some (including me in his first post at least) but that doesn’t mean there isn’t truth in what he says.
Please note if certain female acquaintances of mine saw this I would disavow all knowledge and say someone must have hacked my account!
RE: Question for the guys ....
So the dad/man lost a bit of ground professionally and financially. But he got to spend a few precious years with his kids - could this perhaps be worth it? I bet you the kids would think so.
As this thread points out, there are many different options to working/working part time/school/not working while raising kids. Not one solution fits everyone. It is up to the parents to decide what works best for them (what they can live with and maybe live without!)
AEH
RE: Question for the guys ....
To answer the OP: Yes. I understand the time demands of children but I would not at all mind the stay-at-home dad routine. Brush up on the (cooking) skills, artfully manage (home) finances, deal with (baby product) vendors, design, prototype, and build the perfect jungle gym....
How is this not like what I do now? With the bonus of little me-clones running around!
RE: Question for the guys ....
Amen to that. I gave you a star for that quote. I'm actually a little suprised to hear of how many of the guys are not willing to sacrifice a bit of career to have a richer family life and a few years at home with the kids. In my opinion, family comes before career. Of course, survival of the family must be met so here is where the tension and conflict lies.
RE: Question for the guys ....
This is totally alien to me too. I have enough trust and faith in my wife to support me. I wouldn't have married her if I didn't have that level of trust in her. I see what people are saying about mother's changing their minds and wanting to stay home with the kids but I don't think it's a relevant arguement if you have a resposible wife. I'm confident that my wife would stick around in her job until I could find employment of my own so we could swap roles with no financial disaster done to the family. I would have no problem in her changing her mind either. I'm easy going. I could find happiness and security in either role. So if she changed her mind even after 3 months, I'd be cool with it. Whatever.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Oh and another thing, if your wife is the sole financial supporter of the family and a divorce occurs, aren't you going to be entitled to part of her income through alimony? That's how it works when the guy's the sole provider, right? It's a two way street. So divorce isn't really a good arguement in my opinion either.
Plus, do you really think you'd never be able to find a job after being off for several years? I don't think it would be the end of the world for any of us, really. I don't think any employer would turn down a potentially good candidate because he took a few years off. Especially if you can use family and career development through pursuit of a higher level degree as you reasons for staying at home. Sure you might end up taking a demotion and / or paycut but I surely don't think it's a life ending experience.
RE: Question for the guys ....
I was simply trying to answer the original question with honesty and insight. I suppose I'm somewhat traditional with respect to gender roles within a family. I would, however, like to see some stats on the failure rate of marriages when the woman is the primary source of income (especially when there's a stay-at-home dad in the picture). I would never ask my spouse to leave her job/career to stay-at-home-with-the-kids, but I hope that I could support her if she decided to do so.
RE: Question for the guys ....
So it's bad when men lose wages and experience, but not bad when women lose wages and experience?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Question for the guys ....
It doesn't sound to me like senseless is so senseless. Those who don't prepare or aren't prepared are the ones hurt the most. No one plans to divorce when getting married, and yet it happens.
Grow some thicker skin! We're talking about staying home with kids. Let's stay focused. Not everything has to turn into men vs. women.
No one says you can't find a job if you take some years off, but you are at a definite disadvantage to those who have stayed current with codes and practices and so on.
RE: Question for the guys ....
If things really start rolling in for my wife's company, I will certainly consider hanging up the engineering shoes- even if just for a while. I did just get my PE license so potentially at that time I can start my own small consulting business and do small engineering projects here and there. I also have a serious interest in stock and options trading. I would consider persuing that avenue as well.
Ed
www.engineerboards.com
RE: Question for the guys ....
The only guys who always make money at it are the men in the middle, who shave a little off the money flow regardless of its size or direction.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Question for the guys ....
All the women told me they wanted the husbands to stay in and use the schooling for advancement! IMO, Weird!
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: Question for the guys ....
A chauvinist is someone who assumes something based on gender? Saying you saw a few women do a 180 and quit work, and applying that to all women is chauvinistic I think.
I don't know whether staying at home is good or bad, but that is not my point. If you can't trust your wife/husband, maybe you should not have married in the first place?
There are responsible men and women.
There are irresponsible men and women.
HgTx,
I don't always agree with you even though you have really good points and opinion. In this case, I agree with you also, and gave you a "*".
It's also bad when a woman lose wages and experience because the man backpedaled.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Question for the guys ....
-I got a proposal to change company and country.
-I married to take my wife with me.
-My wife had a good job that left to come with me but she always said that once we establish ourselves, she would look for occupation;
-Once we arrived to our new country, she discovered that all the women of my expatriate collegues were at home, either raising the kids or just enjoying life;
-Then she started to be involved in this and she actually enjoyed it;
-We spoke about having kids;
-I spoke about her getting a job. Not because actually we need it, but realizing that one day things will change and it is quite difficult to get a job after some years out of the market (no networking, no experience, etc.);
-She was not very convinced about my reasons;
-We agreed that if she could not get pregnant until January she would start to look for a job (oh yeah and we enjoyed a lot trying not to get her a job :)
-She didn't get pregant, and started to look;
-In March she found a very good job (excellent pay and good experience);
-In April she got pregnant (nothing like a little stress to spice up);
-She started to speak about leaving her job because when you see that little thing in your arms and think that you will left her with some strange, your heart starts to break;
-I manage to convince her to stay and see how the things develop;
-We had the luck to get an excellent babysitter (but we had to try 2 before the actual one);
-So now we both work and during the day our little baby (8 months old) stays with the babysitter.
As you see, for my experience (and long post) ideas change along the time, so what I would suggest is that you both maintain your jobs, and see where the flow goes.
Regarding the question, my wife would need to earn a LOT more than me for me to accept to stay at home, not because I don't like to stay at home but because how things (real world) are.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Regards,
RE: Question for the guys ....
There is a huge difference between being a chauvinist and being a realist. A chauvinist assumes one gender is superior to the other. In no way have I suggested that man is superior to woman in any way.
I will consent that my comments may seem a little sexist in nature...To be a sexist, you only need to admit that men and woman have different strengths/weaknesses. And don't confuse steriotyping with "considering the odds".
Concerning the quote:
"So it's bad when men lose wages and experience, but not bad when women lose wages and experience?"
In a traditional way:
Yes - I would argue if a man chooses to lose wages and experience (assuming it is not due to education or starting a new business, etc...) then he is not fulfulling his role within the family. I believe this instilled into the nature of man from the hunter/gatherer era. Perhaps in another 100k years or so...we will have evolved differently.
Interesting thought: Assuming you drop your kids off at daycare everyday which is operated solely by men, how comfortable would you be leaving your kids there?
RE: Question for the guys ....
Actually recent studies have shown that women hunted along with men, back in the day. However their roles in the hunt were different.
As for your thought, no more and no less than if it was a woman. However a lifetime of conditioning sparks some alarm about the careminder being a man, but my rational side knocks it down.
And I agree that you're just providing us with the rational/worst case scenario point of view.
RE: Question for the guys ....
What ever you say.
Neither of us is convincing the other of much.
The End
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Question for the guys ....
Bait?
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: Question for the guys ....
As an Englishman I LoL,
As a Californian, tut tut tut, how sexist of you.
Guess some of this is cultural.
My original point is both women & men change their minds.
I was just sugesting you allow for this in your plan.
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
My wife toyed with the idea of staying home to raise our kids, fortunately she had the option for a full year parental leave which she took.
By the end of the year my wife was so bored she almost went back to work early and the issue of staying home permanently was dropped.
Helps that my wife is a teacher and gets to spend two months at home with the kids in the summer. Also helps that she has a fulfilling career that she finds interesting.
Like her I'd find it difficult to give up the challenging, rewarding work I do. I love my kids, and spend as much time as I can with them, but I need a life too.
RE: Question for the guys ....
If my wife made more money than me I would still not stay at home with the kids because I think it's more of a female thing to do so, like it used to be for 20000 years until the late '60s. I guess a sexist is just a person who understands that males and females are different.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Men and women are different. So what? Men and men are different too.
Some people make good parents, some don't. Some people make good engineers, some don't. Gender may (or may not) play a small role in both of those, but it is at best a very poor indicator.
RE: Question for the guys ....
OK let me see... kids need breasts. Women have breasts. Men don't. That's a pretty indicator to me.
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
kids do not, not unless you're some wacko mother's milk advocate.
TTFN
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
If you're bored then you're boring.
There are many interesting things to do in life, not all of them require being at work. All you need is time and (often) money.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Not to start an argument on the board, as this will be my last post on the subject, but if you don't find sitting around the house without intellectual challenge boring, then you are stupid.
If that sounds harsh, reread your post.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: Question for the guys ....
Boottmills![[soapbox] soapbox](https://www.tipmaster.com/images/soapbox.gif)
SW2006 SP3.0
RE: Question for the guys ....
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)
RE: Question for the guys ....
You're right on there.
ChrisC,
Read your own post:
"if you don't find sitting around the house without intellectual challenge boring, then you are stupid"
Most of us wouldn't sit around the house without intellectual challenge. We have ways of finding stimulation other than work. Hobbies, charities, political causes, reading, writing, your partner, your children, your friends.
RE: Question for the guys ....
I never said I was going to try to do better. I have been studying for a while now. I don't know everything there is to know about the market, but there is certainly notthing wrong with thinking that I can do much better than a 401K, etc...
I've done some paper trading, with limited knowledge and easily, handily blew away anything any 401K of mine had ever seen.
I think its doable with the right attitude and the right education and most importantly th right strategies and plans.
I recommend looking into it. If you would like any info, let me know- I'll share what limited info I have.
Ed
www.engineerboards.com
RE: Question for the guys ....
In the bad old times when there was slavery, it was common that white men choose a black slave that was breast feeding and made her giving the first milk to his white baby and only then feed their own baby. By ignorance, in fact the white baby was getting the worst milk and the black baby was getting the richer milk. This was then shown in the development of the baby and these slaves were frequently punished because their owner didn't understand why his own baby was smaller that the black baby.
After this "milky way story", let's go back to the thread.
We can continue saying polical correct statements and confuse wishes with reality.
Facts (not subject any kind of personal interpretation):
-In average, women earn less than men.
-In average, women's carrer development is slower and shorter than men;
-In average, unemployment is higher among women;
There isn't any country in the world that this doesn't happen, not even in European nordic countries where I think it was achieved the closest leveling between men/women.
So it is only natural that when a family is put to that decision, besides the "intellectual stimulation" and "historical"issues, the economic factors should be considered.
That is why I stated in my first reply to this thread that I woudl only consider this possibility if my wife earned a lot, lot more than me.
Sorry about this long post.
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
I am an EE in my 5th position 19 years out of school (3 of those 5 with my current company providing engineering support at a large industrial facility).
I would say you have two choices:
1 - Get out of that job and/or company if you are really miserable.
2 - If you stay in that job, you need to recognize that an attitude of viewing yourself as a narrow specialist can hurt you if it detracts from your performance.
I have throughout my career had more administrative tasks then technical. At the beginning I felt (like you) that I wanted to use my education more. After all I was a superstar in school but no longer a superstar at work... so the answer must be to shift my work activities closer to what I did at school, right?
Well, I'd have to say that mentality has hurt me. I have worked harder on those aspects of my job that involved math and engineering and not as hard on the aspects that seemed more routine/mundane.
For example, I take a little extra time to review technical details when a particularly interesting problem comes along. When complex troubleshooting opportunities arise or technical analyses arise, I usually shine pretty well. But in the day to day grind of getting routine long-range non-glamorous (but very important to the company) stuff done... I haven't put as much emphasis (maybe because it doesn't match my self-image) and I have not done as well in those areas.
And the funny thing, from a performance standpoint, my company isn't overly concerned about what I learned, what I know, or what I want to do, but instead is interested in how much I can you get done (and done well) in the area of my current assigned responsibilities. That is a perfectly logical way for the company to view the situation.
I think that I would have done better and gotten more promotions/responsibilities if I would have grasped that my main objective should be to do my job well (whatever was asked of me) and play the political game well. There may be a variety of ways to achieve that goal (and only you can judge the best way in your current situation), but I believe you can hurt your performance within a given organization by viewing yourself as a narrow specialist that should only do particular types of work. You do better and proving yourself multi-talented by doing well on every task that is assigned you. Then when new increased-responsibility positions open up, they may regard you as a flexible person capable of filing that role even though it's outside your area of expertise.
That's only my view from my particular experience, but I wish someone had slapped me a few times and explained it to me this way 19 years ago.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Are we brothers? It is a shame I can only give you one star for writing something so close to home for me! Good advice.
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: Question for the guys ....
RE: Question for the guys ....
We both now work full weeks and my baby is in daycare. She gets her needed boob in the morning, evening and (unfortunately=) during the night. She gets b/milk in the day from the pumped supplies, given by a lady she knows and trusts, and who is trained to educate her far better than I could.
If either one of us were to quit and raise our daughter at home, we'd be giving up over half of our income (allowing for the savings we make on daycare) and she'll be on her own after high school, not to mention all the deprivation in between.
This is the real family for the new economy. Welcome to the 2000's, now get productive.
RE: Question for the guys ....
Thanks BrunoPuntz for understanding what I meant.
I think epete also raises a good point about career enhancement in general, at least in today's market, having the ability to stay flexible makes you so much more valuable. For instance, I work on marketing graphics and help out in the QC area. The caveat is to make sure your salary says commensurate with your performance.