Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
(OP)
heat pump system?
I want to attempt it, but the principal (Owner) is not willing to guinea pig, and wants me to find other successfull installations first.
Essentially I want to "borrow" water from a domestic main, run it thru a plate and frame HX and re-inject it back into the main at a point downstream from where I took it. This will essentially utilize a very abundant heat sink for a large(ish)(400 ton) water source heat pump system.
Any ideas of where I can find examples of where this has been done before?
Jabba
I want to attempt it, but the principal (Owner) is not willing to guinea pig, and wants me to find other successfull installations first.
Essentially I want to "borrow" water from a domestic main, run it thru a plate and frame HX and re-inject it back into the main at a point downstream from where I took it. This will essentially utilize a very abundant heat sink for a large(ish)(400 ton) water source heat pump system.
Any ideas of where I can find examples of where this has been done before?
Jabba





RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Look for another method.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I agree with you in principle though. At this point it is merely an exercise in conceptualization.
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
TTFN
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
On the plus side... that would save money on the domestic water heating side of things too. Good point.
;)
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
You've still got the liability of protecting the water from contaminants of all sorts. ANYONE with intestinal ailments will immediately suspect your installation as being the cause
TTFN
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I am just hoping that someone here can point me to an article or case study or something.
Jabba.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
One issue with the water supply, particularly residential, since the water flow is sporadic during the day, which means that you will not be able to get stable flow and heat removal.
Another issue is that if you are the only person doing it, then you get cold water. If there are 10 people doing it, then you're going to get lukewarm or warm water and there is less heat transfer to be had. That's in addition to the contamination probability increasing and the increased disruption to the supply as more people attempt to tap into the main.
Given the limited utility of the concept; dollars to donuts, any water authority would nix the idea and possibly lock you up as a danger to their customers.
TTFN
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
As far as what happens when everyone is doing it... just because it's not feasible for everyone does not mean it's not feasible for us.
I am considering using ground water from the site for this as well. The hang up here is how much IS there? It is a 10 acre site, with an underground parking garage over the WHOLE 10 acres. Ground water drainage estimates have been from 500 GPM to 30,000 GPM. Since it's being constructed in phases, we're going to build phase 1 and see how much there is. If we can use it then... we will if not we won't.
I still think someone has actually done the domestic utility tie in thing. They do make food grade anti-freeze as well, so even if there was a leak... it wouldn't hurt anyone. And we could always double, redundant isolate the domestic water from the source loop as well, IF the numbers supported the idea.
And I still think we owe it to each other to push the edge of energy effecient design. Someone HAS to be first to try something new, or else we'd still be living in the stone age right?
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I know of a firm (www.cobaltengineering.com) that is designing a direct water main heat pump system for a project in the Vancouver, BC area, but I don't know the details, and am watching it to see what transpires there. I believe the project is called the "Montenay" project.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
htt
TTFN
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
A.J. Gest, York Int./JCI
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
The ground water idea may be possible, especially if you pump the heated water back where it came from. It all depends on how much reliable flow is available.
What is wrong with just purchasing a commercial packaged cooling tower like everyone else does?
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
The building WILL have a water source heat pump system. It's a 400 ton system in a high rise building with retail, office apartment condo and very high end penthouses. There are reasons why a cooling tower, evap cooler ground loop, air coupled or well systems are not viable. The plan now is to use dry coolers on the roof of the 4th story level of the building, but there will be 6th and 7th floor penthouses that can look down on them. The Architects HATE that.
I am trying to push for something that breaks out of the standard 400 sqft per ton, 400 cfm per ton rule of thumb, "this is how we ALWAYS do it" frame of mind. Yeah I know using a city water main as a heat sink is not a common concept. I know there are hurdles. But, it is a fantastic concept to utilize a little used concept. Think about it, there are MILES of already buried, underground piping there to use. Like a giant geothermal loop field, NOT being utilized. It would also make the building MUCH more energy efficient to NOT have to run a cooling tower, or evap cooler or even dry coolers for that matter.
That's what I am trying to do here... push the envelope a little to make our business a little more energy aware. Yes it would be EASIER for me to do what everyone else does everyday.
Again... I mention that this thread was just to ask is anyone knew about an existing system like this. I am almost SURE there is. I just can't find it, and to be honest I have not looked THAT hard either.
If I was too harsh in this post, I apologize. I fight a battle at the office every day with a designer that is 65 years old, tired, ready to retire that does not want to LEARN about anything. He applies rules of thumb to everything and screws up a lot of stuff that I have to clean up. I am a little overly sensitive to the industry inertia to just do what we have been doing.
Just because something is new does NOT make it bad. If engineers didn't think up new stuff... we'd all still be sitting around a camp fire chewing on bones and wearing hides. C'mon people... help me save the world! ;)
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
use your waste heat and sell the heated water for what it cost you, hardly cost effective when you figure in the man power to over see, operate and test to meet federal specs.
but the public util will not let you re-inject anything back into there system.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
What about splitting the supply into potable and non-potable for irrigation, toilet flushing etc. The non-potable water can be your heat source, and this may be seperately supplemented with filtered rainwater off the roof.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Have you considered using WWTP effluent?
How about a river (if possible)?
Check out these two links to geothermal projects in PA.
The first uses a river.
The second (a Google link to multiple project documents)uses city WWTP effluent.
http
http://ww
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
http://www.enwave.com/enwave/dlwc/
or search for deep lake water cooling in toronto
Sort of off topic but relevant to the heat exchanger/domestic water comments posted above in this thread.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
But at that time, the thought was to drill a well a couple of hundred feet maybe and run a closed loop down and back, making our own geothermal heat sink.
Is that not done any more? That doesn't depend on the volume of ground water to do the heat transfer.
I do agree with some of what has been said. Minimizing heat loads, running very low pressure drop duct and piping systems, simple, reliable equipment and controls has always served me well in designing energy efficient systems.
As you say, not everything new is bad...nor is everything new good either. I deplore some of the things done these days in the name of energy conservation, that do nothing more than disguise systems that were poorly designed to begin with.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I am just exploring ways to use in conjunction with passive methods, to have the most energy effecient system I can dream up, with the lowest installed cost as well.
This is FUN stuff to think about, even if it doesn;t get built.
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I have client (school district) that wants to try water-main w/ water source heat pump system. How did your situation work out? Greader3@comcast.net
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Piping potable water through a chiller is an abrogation of this responsibility, whether or not you save energy.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
----------------------------------------------------------
Your concept has zero merit and looks like the brainchild of an eager 14 year old wannabe engineer.
First off, you keep ignoring the fundamental issue of reinjection and pollution.(i.e.don't confuse me with facts) Are you going to guarantee a safe injection system. Second, how do you get this "infinite" supply of cold water and who guarantees the temperature and when you pump it back ,exactly where does this water go and who pays for the water you are using? Are you telling the utility you want credit for the warm water you are returning? Good luck.
And by the way what have you got against 65 year old engineers who don't "think" out-of the box like you, are they "tired".
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
First off, you keep ignoring the fundamental issue of reinjection and pollution.(i.e.don't confuse me with facts) Are you going to guarantee a safe injection system. Second, how do you get this "infinite" supply of cold water and who guarantees the temperature and when you pump it back ,exactly where does this water go and who pays for the water you are using? Are you telling the utility you want credit for the warm water you are returning? Good luck.
And by the way what have you got against 65 year old engineers who don't "think" out-of the box like you, are they "tired"."
Response:
My mentor was 67 years old when we met. He was neither old nor tired. He embraced learning new things. Was eager to calculate them properly, and did not take the path of least resistance at every opportunity.
I was not proposing running potable water directly thru a chiller. I was proposing running it thru a heat exchanger to isolate the potable from the chiller water. There are food grade plate and frame heat exchangers. My safety intent would be to have the potable system at a higer pressure than the chillers condenser water system so if there was a leak... it'd leak OUT of the potable system. And I don't know if you have any experience in city water or not, but it's NOT that clean. They get mains that break all the time, and Joe Dirt jumps in the hole and patches it up with little to no regard for cleanliness. It's not like our water system is a sterile, hospital like system anyway. You are the one that does not want to be confused with facts pal. I'm sorry your over the hill, and I'm sorry you think you know all there is to know. Me, I do not know everything, and never will. There is always new stuff out there, and just because it's never been done, done not mean it's a bad idea. You just crawl back in your hole, and keep doing the exact same things you have been doing for the last 40 years. What's the big deal if you re-inject the water 10F hotter than you got it?
I did not think this up. I read an article about it a while back. So it had enough merit to get published in a trade journal. My intent of posting it here was simply to have a discussion of interested parties.
To answer the question of how did it turn out... I knew all along I'd never get to do it, but still like to talk about ways to save energy. We're in desperate need af saving energy now. Our world, and out engineers have been throwing more energy at problems for far too long. It's up to us (The next generation of designers) to help SAVE energy rather than squander it like our predecessors have been doing.
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Take the "V" out of HVAC and you are left with a HAC(k) job.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Take the "V" out of HVAC and you are left with a HAC(k) job.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
FYI - The idea of using the utility water supply was being promoted by the Customer and I really appreciate having more than just my opinion to support my no-go decision.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
I also doubt very much if the water utility company will allow you to do ANYTHING with water except use it; many utilities require backflow prevention devices even on residential system to prevent any water from going back into their system.
However, have you considered using the floor of the parking structure as a heat sink? Imbedded tubing in the cement floor of the parking structure would create a radiant floor system that could act as a heat sink (rather than using such a system for comfort heating or snowmelting as we do up here in the northland). And adding tubing into a floor that most likely already has a wire mesh or reinforcing steel grid would not add that much cost.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Utility companies are, in MY opinion a little bit hypocritical and over cautious. I understand their position, but I think they are ignoring a great heat sink that COULD be designed to function safely, and could generate them revenue. While conserving natural resources and saving energy. I know, that water delivery mains are far from clean, let alone sterile.
Is 40 considered a "young buck"? If so... thanks!
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
But much more objectionable is that heating water drives out the dissolved gases, especially the oxygen. This changes its taste and "quality" significantly. It is the dissolved gases in water that make the difference between ice cold water from a fresh bubbling mountain stream, and warm water from a stagnant shallow pond that has been sitting out in the sun for a while.
Both may be acceptably chemically and biologically clean water in the strictest scientific analytical sense, but the difference in perceived quality is very obvious to either human or animal.
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Nice insight.
Jabba
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
http://
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
RE: Has anyone used domestic water main as a heat sink for a water source
Not appropriate for THIS project.
Newest development... there is a lot of ground water at the site. It's still a little undetermined exactly HOW much there will be, but they are thinking in the neighborhood of 500 GPM at it's slowest. The have to collect it and pump it away anyway. I am going to try to utilize this throw away water, thru a HX as a retro-fit to the central plant water source loop once it's established how much water will actually be available.
I'll not be depending on this heat sink, so if it dries up someday the system will still work, but it'll be a nice way to lower the demand on the evap cooler when it's available.
Jabba