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Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?
2

Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
Guys,
Is there anyone had experience pumping water with windmill as power source.
I need someone to advise me a website or books about pumping water with windmill.
It is not a big one, I just need to pump water with suction head 25 meters pumps to a 3000 liters tank, for home use.

Thanks in advance
Pitat

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

When I was young every farm in America had one or more windmills pumping water from wells. These were very simple devices, easily maintained by home mechanics. However, they would not handle a suction head of 25 meters.
neither will any other device. You will need to find a way around that limitation.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
Insideman,
How high the simple windmill water pump can handle suction head ? (Roughly)

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Probably nine meters.

Pat

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

yamin - If you can locate an old set of the Audels "Plumbers And Steam Fitters Guide", they have this specific information. The set I have is from 1946 (copyright 1925), and windmill pumps & generators are covered in volume 3.

I don't think these books have been published since the '50s, so you'll likely need to find an old-timer who's got them in a box in the attic, or at a used bookstore or antique shop.

You may have better luck overall in finding current info on wind powered generators to drive a readily available electric motor driven pump.

Good luck with your project. I'd be interested in hearing how you make out.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

I have purchased old books like that from Ebay!

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

A suction head of 25 meters means that the suction pressure is basically 190 psig and there are many pumps that can handle this pressure.

I don't think that is what you mean though so you need to be a little more precise on your suction conditions.


Tim

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Sounds like a very shallow pumpjack arrangement, substituting the windmill for the pumpjack. 3 joints of tubing, 3 sucker rods, a pump seat nipple, and a ball pump. You shoud be able to get it all cheap or free as used oilfield surplus.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

tstead - I agree this terminology is confusing.  I'm assuming they mean there is water at atmospheric pressure which is located 25m below the pump suction.  Is that correct?

BTW - I think 25m of water column is closer to 35psi than 195psi

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
I mean, I will put the windmill and pump on a small hill and suck the water from hill valley that I measure 25 mtrs vertically.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

O.K., that makes a little more sense when reading your posts now.

You can't do it - it is impossible for a pump to lift water more than about 39 feet or so (depending on atmosphereic conditions at the site).

Imagine you had a really tall tube - any diameter will do.  You have the open end of the tube sitting in a large body of water.  Now, you start to suck out all the air at the other end of the tube until you reach a perfect vacuum up there (perfect vacuums cannot be attained, but let's assume it can for our experiment.)  Now, if you keep sucking the other end with your super shop vac, you get nothing because there is nothing to suck (assume there is still air between the water surface and the shop vac).

Since you are not removing anything, there is no room for the water to "expand" to and hence, the water level will no longer rise.  So, what is that level?  At one end of the tube, you have 0 psia, at the other end you have 17 psia.  The water at the bottom is therefore "pushing" at a force equal to (17-0) psia - or just 17 psia.  Since the water in the tube is static, it too must be pushing back on that water in the reservoir at 17 psia.  Therefore, the water must be about 39 feet high.

Translated differently, the maximum theoretical height a pump can lift water is about 39 feet (adjusted for atmosphereic pressure, of course.)  If you want to move that water up that 25m (82 feet) hill, you need a pump at the bottom to move it up the hill.

Of course, there is a nifty pump called a jet pump that operates on a slightly different principle - but those are only really used for wells.  The pump basically sends water DOWN in the well where there is a jet/venturi that basically sucks water from the well where it is then sent back up the well and to the delivery source.  Jet pumps are therefore inefficient by nature and probably aren't well suited (no pun intended) for use on a windmill where, let's face it, the amount of power generated and reliability leaves much to be desired.

Regards,
Tim Steadham, P.E.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Tim, I don't disagree with your post's content but why use 17 psia?  Atmospheric pressure is typically 14.7 psia and the maximum 'lift' on a column of water is about 34 feet.  I've got to be missing something in your post.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
tstead,
So you says that I cant do it if I put the pump up on the hill, how about I put the pump lower and the pump will have less suction head but more discharge head ?

probably for Mech eng this is a silly question, but I'm just electrical guy.

thanks

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Pumping it UP the hill isn't a problem, you just are limited on how much suction 'lift' you can have on the pump.  I'd put it at the bottom of the hill assuming you will still get the wind there.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Brain fart there.  I was working on a project at the time that I wrote that post and the suction pressure I was dealing with was 16.7 psig.....since normal atm is 14.7 I had a lapse of brainpower at that second :)

Tim

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

TD2K is right...it's not a question of getting it somewhere once it leaves the pump, its a question of getting the water to the pump to begin with.  If you cant get the water to the pump then the pump can't get the water out of the pump.

It should be noted that no pump in existence has a suction lift of 34 feet because, let's face it, a perfect vacuum is impossible even under laboratory conditions let alone using a pump hooked up to industrial pipe.  I don't care if you are even using a self-priming pump - unless you use a jet pump you are limited to a practical lift of around 20-22 feet.  I have NEVER seen ANY pump that could lift water any higher than 22 feet (I'm not saying they don't exist, but if they do they are would be so esoteric that they would probably be precluded from: 1. being hooked up to a windmill, and 2. Delivering any real amount of water for any real-world use.)

Of course, as TD2K said, if you put the pump lower you might not get the wind you need.  This is but one of the many shortcomings that windmills have - yet people still swear by them and say they can solve all our energy problems.  Sorry I had to interject a little politics in this but I had to :)

Tim S.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Its been a few years since school and even then I sucked (no pun intended) at fluid mechanics so this is probably an irrelevant question but: How do trees do it? Your flow rate would be abysmal but could it be done with capillary action?

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hush,
The driving power for trees sucking water through roots is called osmotic pressure. When water is continuously being evaporated through leaves a pressure differential occurs. And as the salt concentration in the leaf cells is more, by law of nature, this should be diluted. Water from outside due to high pressure rises through the capillaries and passes through membranes into the cells. The pressure difference should be sufficient to pass water through these porous membranes. The quantity of capillaries are quiet high when compared to required flow rate (although marginal)

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

One other solution....
Around here (Texas), windmill driven pumps as well as electric driven pumps getting water from water wells have one thing in common.  The suction pipe (regardless of the depth) has a foot valve (check valve) at the bottom end of the pipe.  Before starting the pump, fill the suction pipe with water.  This way the suction head becomes minimal.
Once in a blue moon the valve gets some junk in there and it leaks.  Using the pumps a while ussualy fixes the problem.  Haven't touched it in 20 years.
Hope this helps.

Jean

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Priming a pump can be usefull but it dosnt solve the overall NPSH problem: You cant lift water more than approx. 10 meters by drawing because then it starts to boil. Usually the pump mechanism (not nessesarely the motor) will then be install down in the well.

Best Regards

Morten

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hi Yamin: hope you  solved your problem. If not here are some tips

The wind mill is a mmchine that convert wind energy in mechanic energy by rotating ist wings.
This wings moves a shaft and a gear box that convert rotational movment in an alternative movment.
The wind mill can be located any where but just over the water fountain.
There you have to do a hole to reach the water.
The pump it self will be under the water level, moved by an array of rods and pipe from the wind mill machine.
Please contact me by e-mail
Here in my country there  are manufacturers of such wind mill .

Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hello Forum

A different way to look at this case-problem:

1. Framing notes, applied hydraulics:
1.1 Some fellows already mentioned, the required conditions in order to meet an adequate NSPH for the windmill-pump.
1.2 The limitations in the head-capacity of pumps of this kind were expressel as well.

2. A suggestion:
2.1 Instead to force one (sophisticated) pump to ful-fill those required tough conditions, why not to consider two common (cheap) pumps up the ill, in a series configuration, of course with an atmospherical vessel in-between, to receive from the first one and to serve the second pump which supplies Yamin's home ?
2.2 Those two pumps can be of different optimized size..., (and the above vessel volume, as well) to deal as best as possible with the main inputs, the wind profile "in situ",  the location of the water-line and the output which is the demanding quantity of water at Yamin's home.     
Regards.
zzzo

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

I was at a tradeshow in Toronto today, and was talking with some people at the Grundfos booth. They didn't have any literature on it (apparently only available in Europe, at least for now) on wind powered pump & generator sets. He said the info should be on the Grundfos website. I took a quick look, but didn't see anything on it. You may wish to look into this further.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
235zzzo, thanks for you post, I'm  also looking  in installing 2 pumps so the suction head its not too high.
I'm going to take alook on Grundfos website.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

The problem here is where to situate the windmill.  Despite what many may think, you can't put a windmill *anywhere* and expect it to work.

Wind is very diffuse and unreliable - you need to put it where it will be spinning most of the time.

It does no good to have one windmill at the foot of the hill powering a booster pump when the windmill doesn't turn too terribly often.

Windmills are not the answer to our eneergy problems.  Anyone that says any differently probably thinks the sky is falling and that we are drowing in our own toxic pollution being on the verge of exterminating all of mankind...

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hi all :

Something must be take in mind:

All us in this cybertime are talking about one of the most
old power aviable at this wordl.

Perhaps wind is not the solution to our energy problem, but still is free , the energy token from the air is allway more than the energy spent to build the wind mill and its depreciation time is more than a car, or a turbine, or motor applied to change the energy form.
It will be usefull to the farmer lost in the far countryland,water can be saved on pond, or let it run free on land and the grass will grow.
All the water token by this mean will go back to the same land a near it font.
If you harvest big extension of land with artificial water, most of this water will go whit the fruit up to the metropolitan markets.
Of course that a hill so far in vertical from the water fountain is not the best  example to use a wind mill.
The best use of windmill is to feed cattles and the farmer's famylie  at the plain praires.
Looking at most of the post one thing must be concern to all us:
For the moment and up to the time when this world is changed THERE IS NO WAY TO SUCK WATER FOR MORE THAN 10. METER FROM THE WATER FREE SURFACE, AND IT IF THE NORMAl ATMOSFERIC PRESSURE IS 1000 milliBar.
And if you browse at this phorum , ones of the most oftem problem presented is SUCTION.
Most of the pumps have a NPSH of 2 meter and more, but this meassures have a trick: It is measure from the free water
surface so for a 2 Meter HPSH  IT STATE THAT YOU CAN SUCK UP TO 10 METER minus 2 METER = that is 8 meter meassured from the center line of suction flange to the water free surface.This magnitude is a whole sum of diferents meassures
The first is the geometrical distance from the suction flange to the water free surface and the other,and not less important, is the "distance" that pipe and fiting adds to this distance.
It easy to flow water from pump to up way , any one can do it, just within the limit of the head pressure , but you can change speed, power, or pump system , there are places such as in mining plant where water can go up to 3000 meter
But is impossible by the absolute imposibitie to suction water or any other liquid to its equivalent distance in atmosferic column.
For water it is 10. meter
For oil with a specific weigth of 0.8 kg/dm3 is 12.5 meter
and for Mercury (Hg) it is only about 0,760 meter.
So please review the Physiscs.

Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

I own a windmill for pumping water that I installed myself.  Normally, the pump for the windmill is emersed in the water.  As the windmill pumps, the water level is pulled down to what is called the "pull down" level that is determined by how fast the water being pumped out is replaced in the water column.  It is almost impossible to start a windmill pumping unless the pump is emersed in the water.  It has nothing to do with how high you can suck a column of water.  It is just that windmill pumps are not designed to pump air.

I presume Yamin's reluctance to put the pump near the water is the fact that most windmills pump the water into a riser that gravity flows to the destination.  25 meters would probably be higher than the windmill so that the water would just overflow the riser rather than run up the hill.  Windmill companies have a solution for this problem.  They have you install a packing gland at the top of the water column above the take off where the sucker rod passes through.  Because the water cannot escape past the packing gland, it is forced out the take off by the action of the pump and rises to the destination.  Frankly, I don't think there is any limit to how high this can be pumped outside of the capability of the windmill to lift the water and the ability of the packing gland to limit leakage at the well head.

Finally, as many of you have already noted ... you have to place the windmill in a place where ther is wind and head of the windmill must be high enough to be in the wind or it will not work.

I hope this helps.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

The pump is placed into the water at the bottom of the well (or whatever the source is), then pushes the water up 25 meters.  The pump is called a sucker rod pump.  The windmill has a cam the converts cicular motion into an up/down motion.  The up down energy pumps the water.  The pump can also be driven by hand with a lever.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

SOLUTION: 1 foot valve and a check valve half way up........and don't tell me it won't work because i will then be forced to send you all pictures......my windmill is running a diaphragm guzzler pump from bosworth company with a 1" inlet and a 1.5" outlet 5" diaphragm. i can get 10 gallons a minute from it...........110' run..

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Windmill guy:

Just for curiosity, could you state the distance from the intake pump, to the free water surface.

and the both distance from the intake to the two  valves
 the foot and the chek valve.

You can reach me at k281969@hotmail.com
but keep your post here for mutual benefits.
Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

110' run check is approx 55' from foot and water source..........once i primed it the water kept pumping. i haven't had any problems yet.........been running for a year now.......it has stopped and the water stays there......starts right back up without prime.approx. 75' drop straight down.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Windmill guy:

Do yo have a way to send me a schematic drawing please?

Use my mail as follow

Best regards.









You can reach me at k281969@hotmail.com
but keep your post here for mutual benefits.
Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hello Windmill Guy

I have the same request as Prof. Pardal.
I think you can do that drawing here with letters and the distances, just using your imagination,... I know you follow me.
For curiosity, shows us how it works, your solution.  
We thank you.
zzzo

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hi zzzo :

I think Windmill guy never will know about our requirement because he a visitor.

Hope he browse it post.

Pardeal.

You can reach me at k281969@hotmail.com
but keep your post here for mutual benefits.
Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

I'd like to know if this question ever got answered. I got tired of reading the responses, because some of them didn't know what they were talking about.

I have a hand pump sitting behind me, it is for submersion in a pitless water well and can be hooked to a windmill. There is a lift mechanism and a check built in the pump so it can pump as high as you wish, within limits of the weight of the water verses the mechanical strength of the components.

Also, I am currently re-designing an old windmill. It is a design my company released in 1918. Naturally the bearing system sucks so I am retrofitting it with tapered rollers.

A pump is pretty cheap for the windmill... we don't even build ours anymore because the demand is little, we have them outsourced. If your windmill is working, and the pull rod is intact, and the bearings are decent, and it is over the well, just buy a standard hand pump for the specific bury depth. Our hand pumps are designed to be retrofitted to windmills.

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hope Pumpjack become a frequent visitor.

Your facts is ok , as the pum sure is under the water, and windmill or hand lever are on surface.
The most important affairs is that  a lot of people does not understood about one of the most important  mechanical law, toghether with the gravity law, "THERE IS ONLY ONE AND ONLY ONE ATHMOSPHERE ON THIS SO CALLED -HEART PLANET"
its  value is 14.7 pound square inch or 1 Bar, or 1000 HPa
or 1.033 Kg/cm2, and with this pressure you can "suck  water"  only from a distance no more than 10.33 meters or 33.86 feet from free water surface to the suction device intake.
It can be a centrifugal pump , a piston pump as in wind mill, a siringhe tap, a tank with 0.1 e-18 Bar  absolute pressure or any other device that up today any inventor could develope.
Many things had been developing and still is amazing all us with new and important technological and scientific affairs.

But remember: only in other planet where the atmopher is more  heavier than our planet , one would suck more than 10.33 meters, or 33.86ft.

Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Pardal,
I am now a permenant resident, "pumpjack" is now known as "stressriser".

Everyone seems to be touting the fact that you can not pull more than 33-inches of mercury or 32 feet of water. This fact is irrelevant in well pumping (to a point)

Plus, the atmospheric pressure is not always 14.7 psi...this constant is for sea level. Certaintly you have not tried to boil water on top of a mountain at 20,000 feet. I'll spare you the lecture. If we can get off this undisputable fact, we could then help this guy.

Pump Jacks do not rely on any more than two or three feet of vacuum. The internal mechanism actually pushes the water up the well pipe. Did you ever operate an old fashion well pump? Did you notice that you have to pump it a bunch of times before you get any water? Did you know that some of these wells are over 100 feet deep? A hand pump with a 2-inch cylinder and a 5-inch stroke can pump water fromm 201-feet deep. It is NOT a suction lift. It is a combination of suction, then lift, suck then lift, suck then lift.

It is still unclear how the windmill is to be used. To operate a pump? or generate electricity to power a pump.

Either way, the pump should be "in the reservior" and pushing the water up the hill.

Thats settled, now Yamin beeds to make a decision


RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Hi, Stressriser.

What is clear for you , it is for me too.

Please browse all pumping topics and you will see how often the priming, suction, cavitation and so related tips are coming to it.

I think that this fact is not taked with the importance it deserves.

 
I learn about hand pump  when I was 8 years old at my uncle farm , and a task to do was fill the tank when we come home after been joying outside.

He does not had a wind mill there , but they where all around other farms.

Pardal












Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Look into windmill air lift pumping,which is an interesting method of pumping water.  Depending on your location, that is wind availability, the air lift pumping looks promising.  Pumping requirements depend on your site conditions.  Check out this website
http://airliftech.com/

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

(OP)
Duckbc,
Thanks for the good link,
anyway, thanks for all the experts for their advises, after long thinking, I decide to use pumps drive by buffalo/cow that can deliver 15 liters/sec.
further research wind is not an option because we only have 3 windy months every year.(wet  season).

Again thanks for all advises.
Pit

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

for all you.
Yamin give us the most aviable solution for himself.

Always follow the following rule

K.I.S.S. Keept it simple "sir"

Pardal



Pardal

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

I'm looking for [old] farm windmill reference materials/designs to aid in reconstruction of a typical old southwestern ontario farm windmill.

Any thoughts?

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

shamca: Other than the old Audels Plumbers & Steamfitters Guide 3, you might try the website www.windmill.on.ca The info I have is that it's operated by Bob Budd in Goderich Ontario, who gives courses in constructing windmills from recycled parts, like brakedrums. I'd be interested in knowing how you make out. (I've been doing some casual research on old windmills myself.) I'm only about an hour and half from Goderich, in London. Contact me, if you like. tbpindustrial@on.aibn.com

RE: Anyone experience to pump water with windmill ?

Baker Manufacturing made windmills and pumps for several decades.  They are still in business and still made the pumps for this if you want them.  Call Dennis Atkinson at 608-882-5100.

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