Women Men Work Place Inequities
Women Men Work Place Inequities
(OP)
I favor equal opportunity non-discriminatory work place practices. I’m fine with breast feeding rooms. I’m happy to see people going off and having babies.
But, I do believe our culture over looks many bizarre inequities where men are not afforded the same flexibilities extended to women.
I want to highlight a couple, any body know of more?
Minor Issue #1 –
Foot wear at work.
I’m a male engineer. I wear shoes to work every day.
I see women wearing all manner of flip flop (any shoe that makes a flip-flip sound when you walk), bedroom slippers, open toed things, plus some of the weirdest heel geometries I have ever seem.
I’d like to come in open toed flip flops or maybe bedroom slippers, but I’d really be dressed unprofessionally.
Minor Issue #2 -
As a male I cannot post photos of attractive women in swim suits in my cube without the fear of someone claiming that it’s inappropriate.
At a previous job, one of the IT managers apparently did most of his recruiting down the gold club or something because all of the people in his department had great figures and tended to dress somewhat provocatively.
They wall papered their cube with photos of them selves and their friends at pool parties and such. It was just fine.
If I had borrowed some of those photos and put them in my cube I’d have definitely been reprimanded.
My point -
I learned in the Marine Corps that there is always the 10 % group of people that just don’t cut it. The same goes for both genders.
I actually witnessed this first hand as a Civil Service engineer (20 yrs later) while on a shake down cruise on one of our fighting love boats 20.
I’d like to see female professionalism in the workplace enforced as uniformly for women as it is for men.
But, I do believe our culture over looks many bizarre inequities where men are not afforded the same flexibilities extended to women.
I want to highlight a couple, any body know of more?
Minor Issue #1 –
Foot wear at work.
I’m a male engineer. I wear shoes to work every day.
I see women wearing all manner of flip flop (any shoe that makes a flip-flip sound when you walk), bedroom slippers, open toed things, plus some of the weirdest heel geometries I have ever seem.
I’d like to come in open toed flip flops or maybe bedroom slippers, but I’d really be dressed unprofessionally.
Minor Issue #2 -
As a male I cannot post photos of attractive women in swim suits in my cube without the fear of someone claiming that it’s inappropriate.
At a previous job, one of the IT managers apparently did most of his recruiting down the gold club or something because all of the people in his department had great figures and tended to dress somewhat provocatively.
They wall papered their cube with photos of them selves and their friends at pool parties and such. It was just fine.
If I had borrowed some of those photos and put them in my cube I’d have definitely been reprimanded.
My point -
I learned in the Marine Corps that there is always the 10 % group of people that just don’t cut it. The same goes for both genders.
I actually witnessed this first hand as a Civil Service engineer (20 yrs later) while on a shake down cruise on one of our fighting love boats 20.
I’d like to see female professionalism in the workplace enforced as uniformly for women as it is for men.





RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Regards,
RLS
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
But then I am in the office today and away from all clients and so I've elected to wear flip-flops. So sometimes we can get away with these things.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
The canteens are usually filled between 1 and 1:30 because thats when 1 gets to c the 'hot girls' wearing tank tops, skirts, sleeveless, 3/4ths etc.
I guess its just me who is not supposed to wear casuals for work!!!!!
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I think we're getting too hung up on whether people dress professionally when it is far more important whether they act professionally.
I had a coworker and a previous job that always wore a suit...and acted like a frat boy at mardi gras.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Whether one likes to conform or not, for most people, perception IS reality.
Brian
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I don’t think I can objectively evaluate your comments.
I have a half sister. Her thing is very provocative dress and appearance, bizarre diets and fanatic exercise. She also has a Mechanical Engineering degree. She attended two very good schools at huge expense to her parents.
She worked a brief stints as an Engineer, but eventually settled into a carrier as a waitress and selling vitamins at the mall.
Most of the family including myself considered her dress extremely tacky. We mentioned it to her. She said she thought it was attractive and her right to put her best side forward. She also felt it was an asset she could leverage in the workplace. I truly felt she looked like a street walker. I never approach women that dress like she does. I would have guessed that men expressing interest in her had issues or a very narrow focus.
During her engineering periods she filed against at least one coworker for sexual harassment, maybe more. In the end I wondered if she found herself unemployable and maybe blacklisted because of how she handled things in the office.
Even when she’s visited me. She would tell me how she met some guy in Borders Books that was truly a lover of romantic literature and how she got his number. I could only look ate her in her “outfit” dressed like I don’t know what and wonder how her mind worked.
Even though we using the same terms and words to describe these things. Her application of social décor is obviously way out of phase with mine.
also, What are capri pants?
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
"During her engineering periods she filed against at least one coworker for sexual harassment, maybe more."
What's important is if she was successful. Was she?
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
As a rule I just listen quietly and refrain from asking any questions. It makes family relations easier.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Agreed. But they are provocative.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Carriers have waitresses?!? I knew they were big, but.....
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Many characteristics have no value as predictors at all. Some only have minor statistical significance. Some characteristics are significant.
That’s not to say that I stereotype or classify based on appearance. I do know that I can manage many affairs in a manner that gives more or less control to some one else.
Visual characteristics and experience are really the only risk management tools we really have.
Simple safety examples:
An encounter with a fidgety, rapidly talking panhandler with dilated pupils (possibly be extra cautious not to say anything inflammatory).
A large group of people dressed in gang colors on a corner on a dark night (possibly choose another route because of appearance).
Do I want someone that dresses like a TV flirt representing the company in serious negotiations for a product or services?
This may be a somewhat unrelated example:
There was an incident in my own office where I decided not to let a particular contractor continue handling some technical negotiations for us. I don’t consider the word “dude” to be a business greeting. He also didn’t have a background in the technical area. I might have overlooked the lack of technical expertise if he had handled himself better professionally (in this case the other company is providing the technical expertise).
I mentioned to him that I viewed his way to familiar style somewhat inappropriate. He actually argued with me, insisting that’s his style. His “style” is also not how I interpret the company handbook.
I don’t make the personnel decisions, someone else handles that. I do know I won’t let him handle that particular project any more. All he gets is technical writing work from me now.
Bottom line;
It’s a matter of choosing what group you want to affiliate yourself with, visually or other wise.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
It's beyond me why so many people get hung up over things like attire.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
It wasn’t always that way. The blue jeans thing is the result of some very successful television marketing.
There is nothing more frustrating than having serious discussions over pay and benefits sidetracked buy a group of fashion sensitive people that insist permission to wear jeans at work is somehow a significant benefit. It’s just fashion consciousness.
I personally don’t believe blue jeans are comfortable anyway. As I have aged, and the clearances in certain areas of my body have tightened up, I don’t want a 3/16 inch seam of denim (with rivets) anywhere.
I can find serviceable Dockers and the like on sale in thrift shops and e-bay wholesale lots for sometimes as low a $5 a pair. They fit in well enough with daily business décor for life in the hive, (not necessarily for meeting vendors or customers). If I get them slimed while looking at something on an airplane, I just toss them.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Remember, just because you are comfortable strolling around in your skivies, doesn't mean that everyone else is so open-minded. While at work, aren't you are supposed to portray the company image, not your own?
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Regards,
RLS
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Nevertheless, when we have an important visit or an important dinner, I wear suit, not because someone asked but because I feel I should wear one. Even if much more unconfortable.
It all goes with common sense. If common sense has a normal distribution, it means that at least 5% of the population doesn't have it have very little. These are the ones that dress strange.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
In my current position I am a calc monkey. I sit in the 'dungeon' at the far rear of the building, below ground level. We are never invited to client meetings because we are doing work for project managers internally so they go. Senior management never comes anywhere near us. Hence I am happy enough to come to work in jeans and a t-shirt.
If the situtation changes, and smarter attire is needed I will dress appropriately, but at the moment no-one would see my smart appearance so I dont bother.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Those statements are certainly an eye opener and easily prove the rule that I live by. If you want to remain a "calc monkey" keep dressing like one and no one will inadvertently mistake for anything else, like a decision or rain maker. I practice and teach a philosophy of "dress for the position that you want NOT the position that you have". Unless of course you have zero ambition or have become a total burnout like lostsailor.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I'm not a burnout, I'm a realist, as are my clients, most of whom I've been working with on a continual basis for over ten years. My corporate management recognizes the fact that I keep my clients happy and the money rolling in. So long as this situation continues I suspect they're not going to push issues like dress codes and the "company image". It's been my experience that providing quality service and profitablity brings a level of professionalism and credibility that goes somewhat beyond what you call a "philosophy". I can only hope that, in addition to dressing for success, you also practice and teach something substantive. I've managed to earn the respect of my clients
and employer for what I do, on my own terms. Can you say the same? See you around the water cooler.
Regards,
RLS
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
My current role is the complete opposite and I feel that if I wore a suit in my current position I would be overdressed to the point of being silly. Its the same as a man that turns up on a muddy wet construction site, in october, in a pressed suit and pair of shiny loafers, and with no PPE. He maybe wants to look like the MD of the company (the next position he wants) but in the circumstances just looks like a plonker. The respect from your colleagues suffers.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
In my dept I diligently work to identifying those that share your attitude of "the company image means nothing to me" so that they can be eliminated at the earliest possible moment. Ever heard of loyalty? Geeez...
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Regards,
RLS
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I have received many free meals, paid for by vendors. At conventions I am invited to hospitality suites to look at new products and enjoy free food and drink. I have been handed hundreds of goofy pocket trinkets.
It's not because aerospace sales people really enjoy my company. If stopped working, I would be invited to very few lunches and technical demonstrations.
When I'm at those functions, I am hard at work too. I’m careful about what I say and that I don’t disclose sensitive strategy or pricing information. I study all relevant vendor demonstrations and vendors thoroughly.
Usually, I’m at it until long after I have liked to go back to the room and call it a night.
That’s why it’s so much more interesting to be an engineer than a mechanic in this business.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Getting back to inequities in the work place… I’m going to play devil’s advocate concerning companies being more flexible with woman. (Because I do not think it’s true that women receive additional flexability)
Scenario A:
Women (please note that I am generalizing) tend to miss more work due to medical reasons (women simply require more maintenance than men to keep the mind and body running smooth when comparing an equally healthy man/woman). Companies tend to be tolerant of this fact and extend flexibility to women such that there is no discrimination even though John A. Doe spent 2 days on sick leave last year and Jane A. Doe spent 8. The tolerance is extended not because Jane is a woman, but because she is a valuable member of the company who brings special skills to the table when considering her place within the team circle. John and Jane each are treated equally when considering pay raises and promotions.
Scenario B:
John B. Doe is obese (due to poor personal habits) and is out for 8 weeks on disability due to “back problems” associated with carrying around an extra 100 lbs. The company is obligated to extend flexibility to John B. Doe because he is a valuable member of the company who brings special skills to the table for the entire team. Jane B. Doe, on the other hand, is out for the same 8 weeks caring for herself and a newborn child. Upon both Jane and John returning to work, each are extended the same flexibility. John and Jane each are treated equally when considering pay raises and promotions.
In scenario B, John has been given special treatment over Jane. Jane’s absence from work was due to natural reasons. She is not responsible for letting the team down. John, on the other hand, could have avoided the missed work if he was more responsible with his body and personal habits. John let the team down (as well as drove up medical insurance premiums for rest of us).
Unfortunately, corporate America usually doesn’t see this kind of discrimination.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
What makes you think that "obese" John Doe's "extra" 100-lbs is not his natural state? Are you his Doctor? Almost all people out there have some kind of personal limitations that affect their ability to do various kinds of work. I would appaud any employer who chooses to see the bigger picture and makes an effort to accomodate an otherwise good employee's limitations.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Whew, good thing senseless doesn't run the world! I'd have to:
* ride the bus (safer than driving)
* give up skiing (too dangerous)
* give up wakeboarding (ditto)
* give up skateboarding (ditto)
* give up mountain biking (ditto)
* give up racquetball (ditto)
* give up running (too hard on the knees)
* give up child rearing (as a male, it would be unnatural for me to want to leave work early or take days off for parenting - that sort of thing is rightly reserved for female employees, correct?)
Heck, after I gave up nearly everything I consider fun (to help keep the team running), I might have a hard time not putting on those extra 100 lbs, and I might be a real bastard to deal with around the office (no stress relief)!
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
OK lets talk about clothes from what I can tell half of you want women to dress up like your mothers and half want low cut tops and provocation.
Conclusion it all depends on your team / company and there is no right or wrong answer.
I'm lucky that my work provides work wear hence this is a none issue (I do wish the tops were a little tighter though
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
The only way I see your scenario B being valid as a trend, is if men have more unhealthy living habits than women.
I did a little surfing on obesity and it seems to be fairly equally distributed across sex. When you start looking at smoking, drinking, and even genetic health tendencies, I don't know if the distribution supports your point.
I have met slender women that apparently lived on cheese curls and potato chips. Ssnack products are marketed as foods, but I believe should really be classified as toxic materials anyway.
From what I can tell, you can take a bar of animal fat, mix it with sugar, coloring, spray it with vitamin C and D and call it a fortified food.
I’d like to see the MSDS sheets for those candy bars posted near the snack machine!
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Thanks, now I have this perpetual visual of my Mom in a low cut top being provocative. :0)
Regards,
RLS
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
Aarrrgh! GET OUT OF MY MIND!!
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I was examining a mech defect under a microscope with TV monitor blowup. She came by and remarked that it looked like a part of female anatomy. I found it annoying, but it would probably do me harm if I had made a complaint. She was a long time tech employee serving as a dept supvr.
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
I can't believe folks with such a good education make
comments such as these, Get over it and move on for God sake!
We must learn to deal with all walks of life.
Chuck
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw
RE: Women Men Work Place Inequities
What does your mom look like? Seems the other chaps might be a little hasty