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Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Anyone have a listing of ford part numbers vs. water pump pulley diameter / offset / bolt pattern?

I want to overdrive the waterpump on my 71 429 to alleviate some slow idle cooling deficiencies.  

Thanks

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

The MARCH company has a good selection for this engine (429-460) and even conversions to serpentine belt drives.
I would go to their site and e-mail them you application.
If you can locate a larger crank pulley, it will run everything a bit faster, otherwise you get into selecting other pully sizes to reduce the other acc drive speeds.
All most everyone goes the other direction trying to get more engine power back and gets into charge and heating problems.
Good luck.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Don't bother changing the pulleys; they were right, once.

Replace the radiator before you do anything else.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
In general terms I would agree with the pulley suggestion, however there is more to the story.  Engine displacement has increased to 514 CID, there is a automatic transmission cooler tempering the air before the radiator, and the waterpump is a cast aluminum edelbrock unit that seems to be lacking on flow in the lower rpm range.  Edelbrock is unable to supply a pump curve even though their website boasts a "water pump dyno".  If I set the idle up it stays cool.  At 500 rpm it heats up.  Radiator is in peak condition.  

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Ah.  Speed parts.  In that case, my second choice would be downsizing the w/p pulley a bit.  My first choice would be a genuine Ford pump.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines


Ford Racing does make a performance pump for the 429 that claims more flow at lower RPM. March lists an overdriven W/Pump set up.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Hi allornothing
Before you spend megabuck$, here's a few cheapo tricks that might work. If the impellor doesn't already have one, you can install a circular sheet metal disk at the back of it (spot weld it, no rivets). Also try to move the impeller back or forward on the shaft to optimize the flow at that lower rpm. Again, make sure the damn thing can't come loose. Good luck.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Interestingly enough, the stock pump with the cast impeller did seem to perform more reliably at low rpm.  I have some suspicions that the edelbrock pump is made for those in mind that idle their overcammed engines at 1500 rpm.  

To enhance the story some more, the motor is in my 1971 ford LTD and I am using it tow a 30' 6500# holiday trailer.  Ironically as long as I am moving or on high idle everthing is fine from a cooling aspect.  Only when I am jockeying around in a camp spot is the overheating occuring.  This is what leads me to believe that fancy pump I just bought is not pumping adequatley at low rpm.  I think I will hunt down a pulley that is smaller for the water pump, therefore increasing the base rpm of the pump and bladed fan, leave the crank pulley alone, since it runs the ps pump too.  I will add a clutch fan if I can hunt one down.  I may also switch from the 1971 steel fan to a 1976 steel flex fan of a newer LTD.  The thought on the clutch fan is to return extra HP at highway speed / cool conditions.  The clutch should lock up during any hot operation provided water flow is happening and the rad is hot.  

Any clever folks out there know how to make a RTD work on a DVM with a minimum of parts?  i.e. an op amp / resister network?  I haven't gotten to installing a proper water temp gauge yet.  (yeah yeah I know, I have just been busy . . .)  

I would love to finish edelbrocks work by installing a flow meter in the radiator hose, any smart ideas to measure flow in a rad hose for cheap.  A 1.5 inch magmeter would be sweet but $3K is a little rich.  

a household water meter might work, but I don't have one and am not too sure how well it would deal with 100°C coolant.   

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Running hot at low speed is more likely insufficient air flow rather than insufficient water flow.

Do not reduce the air pumping capacity of the fan. In fact, increase it if you can.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines


Yes, why all the focus on water flow?

Electronically measure water flow rate but no temperature gauge...

Looks like an example of doing first things last.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

got a fan shroud?

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Fan shroud - yes

Temperature gauge tell you that you have a problem, a flow meter may tell you why.  

Guess it's just the P.Eng. in me.  smile

I agree, fan speed / air flow is also important, hence the smaller pulley that started this whole thread.  smile

Im am considering the clutch fan, since I do not have a problem above idle.  Clutch fan is temperature dependant, not rpm dependant.   

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

I was thinking bigger fan rather than faster fan.

Increasing pump speed just might induce cavitation at higher speeds than tested for in original application.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Run by a scrapyard and pick up an electric cooling fan and shroud from say a VW Rabbit. They are nicely engineered and shouldn't cost more than 20 bucks.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

If you dont mind loosing a few horse I suggest the stock ford rigid five blade fan off the 70's era trucks. they have about the same pitch as a flex fan but dont flex. I have used these fans to effectively cool a number of ford cars that have had problems overheating in cruises. Also im not sure you lose all 3-5 HP that the fan chews up, I think you get some of it back in thrust. You will see what I mean when you intall it. wink

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines


Fan thrust brings up a point with big blocks. Big engines fill the engine compartment much more thoroughly. More than once, I have helped heating problems by modifying fender wells and moving hoses to imporve exit air flow.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Seriously, back to the very fist post, I want to try a smaller water pump pulley to increase the fan speed relative to the crank.  The present pully is 6 1/2 inches and I know there are smaller stock ones around.  The older mustangs have about a 5 inch unit.  The present fan is a 6 blade solid steel unit.  It does move a ton of air, I think it and the pump is just running a little slow at idle.  

As for engine compartment space, it is pretty plentiful, this is a full size car.  

I still really have my suspicions on the water pumps ability to pump at low rpm.  

Edelbrock says high pump rpm is not a problem, claiming that I can spin it as fast as I want within the constraints of the mechanical pulley ratios.  

I would like to track down a IR thermometer to compare block temp to radiator core temp and see if everything is hot.  This would go a long way to understand where the cooling breakdown is happening.  

i.e. if the rad is cool and the engine hot, there is probably not enough coolant flow;

if the rad is hot and the engine hot there is probably not enough air flow.

Differential temperature would tell a lot more than just engine temperature.

  

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
For the record, the present fan is 6 blade solid steel and the top pulley is 6.5 inches the lower pulley is 7 inches

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines


Is the 500 RPM idle in gear or in neutral?

Amazing, you are towing a 30 foot long trailer that weighs 6,500 pounds with a car, and you don't even think you should have an engine temperature gauge.

"if the rad is cool and the engine hot, there is probably not enough coolant flow;"

"if the rad is hot and the engine hot there is probably not enough air flow."

if the engine starts smoking or knocking going up a hill, it's probably ruined.smile


RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

I've never had a new radiator that had hot and cold (blocked) sections, but I've had a few used ones that sure did.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

I had a used radiator that was not more than 18 months old, and looked perfect inside.  Every tube you could see was clean and shiny and demonstrably flowing nicely.

The tubes that you _couldn't_ see, in the other row of two, were _all_ clogged up so solid that no amount of commercial radiator cleaner, acid, whatever, would even touch the gunk in them.

I only discovered the clog because I had the radiator out, and was sloshing acid back and forth between the tanks by seesawing the core on a sawhorse, and the flow into the lower tank didn't look right.

I only tried that because I had already tried everything else.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

AllorNothing

The approach you mention will tell you where the problem is.

I would also suggest that a stock water pump will solve any problems if they exist.

I have never seen an overheating problem attributable to lack of water pump capacity on a modern, engine in stock condition and in good working order.

I have seen plenty of problems from insufficient airflow, whether due to insufficient fan capacity or removal of shroud.

I have seen some problems due to air flow restrictions, especially due to engine bay crowding.

I have seen plenty of problems from poor water circulation due to deposits blocking or restricting flow.

I have seen plenty of problems due to replacement thermosets being poor quality or incorrectly designed or installed.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Here's my 2 cents--after a long absence from here because of a sciatic nerve pain down my leg.

I've never had a decent clutch-fan with one exception.  I've tried quite a few new aftermarket clutches and none of them ever drove the fan fast enough for me, and they wouldn't even attempt to lockup until over ~200 deg F--too hot for me.

The one exception was the stock clutch on my ex-1975 Chevy half-ton w/454.  That clutch would lockup above 200 deg F just about solid.  The fan would roar, the truck would actually slow down, and the temp. would drop pretty fast.

Wish I could find some kind of inexpensive magnetic clutch that I could control myself, that would lockup tight.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
I am intrigued with mikes experience with clogged passages.  I had a 76 LTD with a hopped up 400M and as the years wore on a noticed that it would heat up under heavy load on the highway.  Ironically the problem was seperation of the water passage from the cooling little metal wrinkles of heat dissipating metal.  

Looking at the aftermarket pump, it looks considerably better made than the stocker that I took off with the leaky seal.  The tolerances between the impeller and case as well as the backplate and impeller look a lot more precise.  Perhaps pretty but not good for pumping at low speed.  

As my handle would suggest, the following plan of action is under way.  (once I reinstall the steering box which just got back from repair from other non-related issues).  I am going to add not one but three temperature measuring probes.  radiator inlet, radiator outlet and block temp.  I found some nifty temperature sensors from national semiconductor (LM34DZ) that read off degrees farenheight directly to a digital voltmeter.  I will keep you posted on the result. (Now i want an IR scan to see the temperature distribution in the rad !!)   

I have rustled up a clutch fan out of a 95 3/4 ton and fan, solid steel five blade, and the six blade steel flex fan from the 400M. I have found a raft of the large pulleys but no small ones yet.   

Regrettably the bolt pattern from the clutch fan is different than the pulley and pump.  And based on comments above, that looks like a pretty marginal fix.  BTW, my 90 mustang GT 5.0 has a clutch fan and a seven blade fan that seems to move a lot of air when required.  The Rad in that car is now 16 years old and still working dandy.  Amazing what regular antifreeze changes does.  For the record the pump seal pooped out about 2 years ago.    

I will be concentrating on finding a smaller pulley as the next step post temperature gauge installation, provided my suspicions are confirmed.  

My money is still on that rotten ($200) edelbrock pump not working very well at low idle. (Agreeing with the comment about stock water pumps working very well!!)

Regrettably, I never had the opportunity to tow with the stock pump, but tend to think that since the problem is at idle, the problem is independent of the trailer be attached while sitting still.  smile
 

Cheers.  

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Good comments all!
I think you can get IR sensing thermometers fairly cheap at cooking / kitchen shops like Williams Sonoma, Crate & Barrel, maybe Hoffritz.  They may not be really accurate but you're looking for variation, not accuracy.

Anyway, good luck.  What happened to the 400M?

Cheers
cheers

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
First 400M spun a rod bearing a wrecked the crank, second 400M got parted out when the car was retired.  The 400M made good power, the 76 LTD would chirp the tires going into second gear and topped out at 145 mph.    

Some preliminary info on the temperature readings from the last couple of days.  

Temperatures are stable on the highway, engine runs at 175°F and suprisingly the inlet and outlet temps of the radiator are not that far different.  

When idling, the temperature of the engine will slowly climb to 205° F at which point I got back on the highway to cool it off.

I did observe a nearly direct linear correlation between engine temperature and radiator temperature.  

When the motor was at 200, the outlet (bottom) of the rad was 180 and the inlet was 190.  

The conclusion that I have reached in that the radiator is not performing adequately with only a 10° drop across the rad.  I would have seen much cooler outlet temperatures on the rad outlet if the coolant circulation was inadequate.  Can't expect the engine to run at 180° if the coolant temperature going into the enginer is already 180°.

A band aid fix could be fan speed increase, but I have chosen to order a new radiator as the next logical step.  Should be here this weekend, I will keep you all posted.  

Please don't get too picky about the 10° differential between radiator inlet temperature and the engine temperature, the sensors were just strapped onto the hoses and the upper rad hose probe was subjected to significant airflow from the fan and may have been reading cooler than actual.  The radiator outlet temperature sensor was much more wind protected.

For the record the radiator looks perfect, but is quite old.  (I have owned the car 20 years +) and can't quite remember if I changed the rad when I bought the car or not.  

Perhaps I will saw it apart and do a post mortem.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Sorry, but it seems to me you are about to replace your radiator based on known to be quite inaccurate data.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Is there something inconsistent about that?:)

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
The mystery deepens.

I put in the brand new 3 core crossflow radiator, and a fresh 180° thermostat for good measure.  

Went for a drive on a 75° evening.  

The cooling system behaves quite differently but still not right.  

Before the car would always cool back to normal if you could get on the highway and get some air to move.  

Now it takes a lot longer to overheat, but when the temperature creeps 180 190 195 200 there seems to be little that one can do to cool it down.  Driving on the highway does not cause the engine to get back to normal operating temperature.  

Regrettable I damaged one temperature sensor during the install and have to replace it.  

Oddly the heater in the car is not putting out the heat that it should either.  At 200°F coolant temperature you should be able to nearly bake a cake inside the car.  There is a vacuum operated block valve in the heater core line that I will check next to see if it is not opening up properly.  

I checked the fan to shroud clearance, 1/2 inch.  

Hoses are clean inside.  I did notice a few gummy stringy looking deposits on the "spring" in the lower rad hose (the one that keeps the hose from collapsing under vacuum).  Cleaned it well and reinstalled.  Strained the nearly new coolant.  Got very little debris.  Engine block looked whistle clean when the water pump was off a month ago.  

I did a fancy install of the temperature probes on the new rad.  I put a brass thermowell in the top and bottom shells next to the inlet and outlet ports.  While the coolant was out I also put a brass thermowell right in the intake into the coolant passage on the engine side of the thermostat.

I ran the car 3 or 4 times, trying to get out any airlock that may have occured, the coolant reservoir went down significantly the 1st and 2nd time but has stabilized now.  This leads me to believe that the system is now full.  

Starting to really be puzzled, am considering putting old stat in if temperatures don't make sense when the 3rd probe is reinstalled and I can verify radiator operation.   

Thinking about spending some time to more effectively seal the radiator to the radiator support to ensure all air goes through rad and not around.  Looking at the places where the air could go, there is maybe 10 per cent (compared to the rad surface) cross sectional area where the air could bypass rad.

Seriously though, I am sure you could suck a pad of writing paper onto the front of the rad at idle.  At 3000 rpm it is really sucking a boat load of air through the rad.       

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Could it have a blown head gasket.

Could you have moved the ignition timing.

Could you have damaged a sensor that effect A/F ratio.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
I Don't believe there are any head gasket problems, engine runs good, coolant level is stable once full, oil is clean, no steam in the exhaust.  

Will check timing.    

A/F is a 800 cfm edelbrock carburator, A/F ratio is at best "dynamic" smile

I have recently learned of Robertshaw Balanced Sleeve Thermostats and am wondering if my high volume pump is not hamping the oem thermostat.

Getting the thermo sensors back online soon, I will be able to measure rad in, rad out, engine, trans oil in, and trans oil out.  

Will keep you all posted.  
   

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

I do not normally recommend running without a thermostat, but for a test run to eliminate it as a variable might be a good idea.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Hmmm,

Got temperature probes on line.

Locations:

Radiator Inlet (Tank near upper hose)
Radiator Outlet (Tank near lower hose)
Coolant in Intake Manifold, (Water Passage Behind Distributor)
Oil (Lower Left Side of Pan)
Trans cooler in / out.
Trans cooler is connected in series with trans cooler in radiator.

Okay, with the stock type thermostat the engine coolant would climb to 200F and the radiator reads 170 top and 155 bottom.  What it tells me is that flow is not happening.  Thermostat appears to work, radiator is 80F till motor hits 180 and then begins to warm, but not as much as I think it should.  30 degrees differential! 45 degrees pump suction to engine.  

Heater is working fine, indicating that there is at least some flow if not good flow.  

Changed thermostat to balanced tube robert shaw design. 180F.  Cooling system is much more stable, first run was last night and the system was not fully purged of air yet.  (This morning the overflow container was about a pint of fluid lower).

Last night I had to move the 6500# trailer and was able to idle the car successfully for 5 minutes or so while I hitched.  Temperature climbed slowly to about 205F, and the radiator was considerably warmer than with the stock thermostat.  (Still about 15 degrees differential between engine and top of radiator.   

I am still puzzled why the radiator top was still 15 degrees cooler than the motor and the coolant at the bottom of the rad it was still 25 degrees coolant than the motor.

I would have expected the top of the rad to be almost identical to coolant in the motor.  

Oil in the motor was 30F cooler than the engine coolant sensor at idle, but rose to near 200 when towing.  (no suprise here).

It was a cool evening about 70F.

Once the engine was at 200 after idling for a while, it was reluctant to cool back down on the highway.  (Odd, since it would always cool on the highway even with the stock stat and old rad.)  

The upper radiator temperature crept up to 190 or so but still had a differential top to bottom of 20 degrees or so.  

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it seems like something still isn't quite right.  

The rad is now new, water pump is new, 180F robert shaw thermostat is new. 55% glycol / 45% water is new prestone with Redline water wetter.  

Have spent some time plugging holes in the radiator support to force airflow through rad.  No bugs, bras, windscreens, or crap like that in front of rad either.    

Fan is 5 blade flex steel (oem ford 400 circa 1976.)  Blades are 3/8" from shroud.  Blades extend from shroud about 1 inch beyond shroud.  

The pulleys from engine to fan are such that the fan runs slightly faster than the crank.  10%?

Thinking about ceramic coating the headers.  

Thinking about more detail to "seal" radiator support for airflow.  

I did install a trans cooler in front of the rad, about 10x10".  Temperatures on it go from 130 to 180 depending on load.  

It appears to be more or less working, but I wouldn't mind a little more insurance.  

I am also hoping that the rad is full now since it has cooled and sucked in another pint.  

I sure wish I had a flow meter on the heater hoses and radiator hoses . . . . . .





     

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

(OP)
Last night's test run was quite informative.  

Ambient was about 65F

City driving resulted in a stabilized engine temperature of about 190.  (180 Thermostat).  Typical upper radiator temperature was about 10 degrees cooler, typically 180.  Lower radiator temperature was about 10 to 15 degrees cooler at 165-170.  

Extended idling would cause the engine temperature to climb as high as 205 after extended idling (10 min)

Radiator temperature went to 195 top and 190 bottom.  Pretty much on the bubble if you ask me.  I am not really convinced that a hot day would be a good situation.  The oil temperature was quite a bit lower at idle, probably in the 170 - 180 range.  

The 205F engine was reluctant to cool much when resuming city driving.  The engine hovered around 200 for a good 15 minutes of driving.  

Getting out on the highway resulted in a very quick cool down, the motor settled in right at 180 - 185 and the radiator settled in 155 top and 150 bottom.

Going camping on the weekend, forcast is hot.  Keep you all posted.   

RE: Water Pump Pulley Sizes for Early Ford Engines

Until I got my overheating problems corrected on my '96 Jeep Cherokee, I carried a 2 gallon Hudson sprayer and would stop and spray the radiator with water when the temp gauge began to nudge the red zone after slowly climbing for an hour in 90F weather. Then,I was good for another hour of highway travel.

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