Relay testers
Relay testers
(OP)
Hi all.
We're currently looking for a relay tester. We're trying to
find one with a database containing lots a relay types and easy to set up.
Right now, we have a Pulsar. But without the software to run it, it is somewhat difficult to set up...
Last Friday, we met a sales rep from Megger. People here
are not too happy with the presentation we've had for
the MPRT.
Anyway, Omicron, Doble and Manta are the next possible choices. Any comments or suggestion?
We are a service company and we're going to test more and
more generator protection relays. We looking for the right
equipment.
Thanks






RE: Relay testers
http://home.att.net/~john.horak/
David Baird
Sr Controls Designer
EET degree.
Journeyman Electrician.
RE: Relay testers
http://www.enoserv.com/index.php
RE: Relay testers
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RE: Relay testers
Maybe this company is an alternative for you. For us it is.
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RE: Relay testers
I am working for a service group in finland. Three years ago we have been infront of the same decision. After a look on the Doble, KoCoS and Omicron we've decided for an ARTES 440 II.
Main sticking points for us were the good support, the options of the device and the price (as always).
RE: Relay testers
Binary inputs should double as oscillographic measuring channels.
In this regard I believe the Doble F6150 pips the CMC 256-6.
However with regards to software, the Omicron test universe Ver.2 is streets ahead of Pro-test.
Omicron seems to maintain an innovative position one step ahead of the rest.
I do not know another test set that can import all electronic settings from any IED, manipulate these settings to test parameters and automatically populate test plans on an equal with the Omicron.
I believe GE Programma have are aiming for this too.
I am not familiar with the RTS package.
However, you may want to consider these guys.
They are new kids on the block that have an interesting market offering as a open test kit solution.
http://www.ips-energy.com/en/
They claim to be able to represent any relay information in an importable IEC 61850 format. This manipulation is performed automatically for electronic settings.
By all account it covers all the database angles covered by RTS too.
In the near future all test kit manufacturers will have to make their test kits fluent in the IEC 61850 protocol, as this will be a require to converse with the majority of modern relays.
RE: Relay testers
The Manta I used was state of the art at the time (10 yrs ago). Havent used the new one.
Our Pulsar spent a lot of time in the repair shop, or being dropped in order to get it to work.
Programma does not have the power for US 5 amp relays.
On the Software side, Omicron is clearly the best. In the service world, one does not get paid until the report is submitted. The ability to make a nice report automatically and quickly is a clear plus. Omicron does a nice job. Protest is very poor at this, as is Manta and Programma.
Some people quip about computer controlled or not. Perhaps if all relays were mechanical that would be a rational response, but in my experience, one would be a fool in trying to test a SEL, Basler, ABB, or GE without talking to the relay during the test. Then of course there is the documentation.
Some utilities have minimal documentation, such as relay test cards. Not in the private world.
I like to have the ability to modify the test plans easily. Multifunction relays can be 1-100 different functions.
RE: Relay testers
You're pointing to a real problem among field engineers for service companies. We had to test a wide variety of relays. Working for several clients, we'd find one who was a Schweitzer fan, another who'd bought GE Multilin, a third who liked Basler.
Software just to communicate with the devices was a problem, as was manuals. Manuals on CD definitely help this problem.
But it is really an exercise to have to look at each application of a multifunction relay and decide which functions to test and how to test them.
old field guy
RE: Relay testers
I agree. It was bad enough in the past to have to carry along several milk crates filled with the IBs for just the GE & West Relays. At least there were certain things that could be memorized such as 1,10, 7,8 on a CO.
A SEL, GE or Basler manual are often 2-300 pgs long. Many of the new manuals do not even give testing procedures. Keeping up on the SW for all these relays. Being able to buy a laptop computer with an RS-232 serial port.
Worst part is that many people are straying away from some kind of test switch at all on the digital relays, or if they do have them, the voltages are in the wrong place, etc. And drawings, settings.....
I guess the good thing is that with the proliferation of new relays, there still remains a demand for qualified relay people after all.
Good luck.
RE: Relay testers
Omicron (www.omicron.com) CMC256-6 is ready for IEC61850.
They have ethernet port, they can trip by GOOSE messages instead of binary inputs, they are able to import SCD files etc.
They have the new XRIO concept to draw characteristics for a lot of relays (without need to import the RIO files, characteristic is generated by the XRIO itself). They can test in primary or secondary quantities.
Software is easy to use (you do need some practice).
Performances are more than enough for testing numerical relays.
Very good Comtrade Viewer.
ISA (www.isatest.com) DRTS-6: no ethernet port (yet?). Only RS232 or USB.
Some parts of the software are very good and easy to use.
Very good export of test data, in Microsoft DataBase format. Easy to elaborate them with Excel.
Possibility to test in primary and/or secondary quantities.
Similar concept to Omicron XRIO: a library of functions that draw relay characteristics (mainly distance protection) for the different relays.
Sometimes tricky software (sequences), but usually well running and easy to use (easier than Omicron).
Doble (www.doble.com). Software was not easy to use, now it is better but still it looks like glued on the old software. Anyway much better than before. In my opinion much less user friendly then Omicron and/or ISA.
They do have ethernet interface, not ready for IEC61850 but as far as I know they will come soon with it.
Hardware is superior to the other 2, but you appreciate it only while testing elechtromechanical relays. For numerical relays there is no clear advantage.
General Electric - Programma (Freja 300). (ht
When (or if) are 6 current generators coming?
Still RS232 port?
What about ethernet interface?
Software is very easy to use but the performances are also limited. Quite slow in testing distance protections.
RE: Relay testers
For the old electromechanical relays you can find such databases. For a digital relay, there are so many available settings that even if the relay is in the data base, the functions that you need to test may not be part of the test template.
I would advise that the testing SW be flexible and have test modules that are dedicated for the protection type you are testing (overcurrent, diff, distance, etc).
By the way, Doble does not support analog input for osc. viewing.
RE: Relay testers
RE: Relay testers
RE: Relay testers
I am Relay Engineer & i have used OMICRON CMC256-6, FREJA300 & DOBLE F6150. I have analyze some points as listed below;
1) CMC256-6 is very good to test for Static, numerical & digital relays not for whole scheme.
2) F6150 is very to test for electromechanical, static & numerical relays & schemes.
3) FREJA300 is quite good to test only for numerical relays.
4) Omicron Test universe software is much more better than Doble F6TEST software & FREJAWIN software is nuch more easier than Test Universe software.
5) Front Panel control is only available in FREJA300.
6) FREJA300 is semi-automatic relay testing kit. CMC256-6 & F6150 are used as fully automatic relay testing instrument.
7) Graphical lookout of ProTesT software is not very good but, it is more flexible & fast than others.
8) Application of ProTesT software is very useful for generator protections as well as motor protection relays because we can able to program & calculate somany parameters in software.
RE: Relay testers
I am contd. with above points;
9) Relay testing is very easy with CMC256-6 & F6150 because Omicron is providing RIO files library with TESTUNIVERSE SOFTWARE for testing of various relays & Doble is also providing very good relay library with F6TEST & PROTEST SOFTWARES including RIO IMPORT facility. But, it is very difficult to test some special characteristics with FREJA300. FRAJAWIN SOFTWARE is also having RIO IMPORT facility, but characteristic creation is difficult than F6TEST & TESTUNIVERSE.
10) IEC61850 feature is available in F6150 & CMC256-6, but it is not in FREJA300.
11) Some of the special features like CT saturation waveform for differential relay testing, Power system model for dynamic testing, Power swing creation (Asynchronous method & DZ/DT Method), Inrush gap creation for static differential relay testing etc. available in softwatre & it is possible to Create & test with F6150 & CMC256-6 but, these features are not available in FREJAWIN software.
12) Finally, my conclusion is; harware wise F6150 is much more better than CMC256-6 & FREJA300, but there is no doubt; TESTUNIVERSE SOFTWARE is more better than DOBLE F6TEST SOFTWARE. CMC256-6 is having maximum 4-voltages & 6-currents channels & F6150 is having maximum either 6-voltages & 6-currents or 12-currents channels.
RE: Relay testers
RE: Relay testers
RE: Relay testers
www.etap.com
RE: Relay testers
Omicron is in my view the Mercedes of test sets. Unfortunately also pricewise! But if the price is not so big problem, CMC256 would be my choise, probably as the Mercedes :).
ISA - DRTS6: a friend of mine is using it very intensively almost two years without any problems. I am a bit suspicious about the quality of Italian electronics, but in this case I have nothing to say. Software of this tester is also close to Test Universe, and upgrades are free - very good option!. If Italians were more flexible with their offer, I would buy DRTS6 instead of Freja300. By the way, new Freja300 costs more than new DRTS6, so if you have to choose new one ISA should be the winner.
Regarding the simultaneous testing on both ends of the line - at least any of this 3 tester with which I have personal experience, has GPS option to synchronize injection of two testers. Good option, but I doubth how frequently it is used. For the moment this advantage never have been required in my practice.
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: Relay testers
My reply is to Mr.MilliAmps,
Why not? It is possible to do with End-to-End Testing. These is the procedure if you can use F6150 & CMC256-6;
Step:-1
If you can use GPS receiver annetena on both end & just synchronise both the instrument on time.
Step:-2
Create Phase to Phase/3-ph & Phase to ground faults in STATE SIMULATION & STATE SEQUENCE modules with the help of power system model (Single Line/Parallel line/Parallel line with Tap etc.)
Step:-3
Apply faults from both end simultaneoulsy & see the bahivour of the scheme operations including carrier send carrier receive signals.
It is very easy once you will do it.
Reply is to Mr.Dandel,
What you are suggeting to test with ETAP & ARTTS? Over current & earth fault relay co-ordinations & testing?
My understating is; that you can do with any numerical relay testing instruments. I have used ETAP POWER STATION 2.5 version (Load flow, SC & TCC modules), it is calculating fault currecnts on various bus based on input data. Another important thing is; ETAP/EDSA/CYME etc. freq. domain programs whivh good for power system studies/analysis not for relay performance testing. For relay performance testing; EMTP/ATP/PSCAD/NETOMAC softwares are good to create transient conditions even same files (.cgf/pl4) can be used for ened to end testing. This is only the relistic method to check the performance of Distance schemes.
In theory; there is no difference in theory & practice but in practice; there is some!!!!!!!!
Thanks
RE: Relay testers
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00123456, I see that some values are the same all over the world! This was one of the main reasons for me to choose engineering profession - the law of Ohm is not ideologically dependent.
Thank you for the nice explanation about end-to-end testing. When our company became rich enough to buy two Omicrons I will use it, but now I will pray the customer not to ask for such tests
www.triel.dir.bg
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: Relay testers
I can understand commercial problem, but End to End testing is also possible to do with FREJA300 & FRAJAWIN 5.1 SOFTWARE if you have two instruments with external sync. modules. Programma (Now, GE) is providing GPS-100 receiver that can able to generate 5V TTL-signal on specified time.
Every thing is not a big thing, only thing, you need to just some!!!!!!!
Thanks
RE: Relay testers
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: Relay testers
If you have one Freja300 + FrejaWin software & one DRTS6 + ISAWIZARD software then also it is possible to do end to end testing for distance protection. It's 3-4 cycles difference between FREJA300 & DRTS6 for activation of sources that time you need to enter in one of the software.
Very simple!!!!
Thanks
RE: Relay testers
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: Relay testers
RE: Relay testers
Sorry,i am late
I know ETAP power station software is having module or option that allows relay testing, with direct communication between software & DRT6 or ART3 (ISA make) instruments on desired freq. sampling rates (say; 2kHz, 5kHz, 10kHz or 20kHz etc.), but again i am saying it's a ETAP is a freq. domain program it's not a electromagnetic transient program. So, it it just creating fault waveform including dc offset with higher sampling rates not more. same thing that you can able to generate by using state sequence or state simulation program in relay testing softwqare. ETAP can not able to simulate dynamic characteristics of electrical networks based like EMTP/ATP/PSCAD-EMTDC.
i.e. suppose i want to simulate transient ground fault in series compensated lines or ungrounded system (pi section or T-section) then EMTP/ATP & PSCAD can able to simulate fault with electrical damping & it's effect on other two phases also but, this is not possible through ETAP/EDSA/SKM/CYME any freq. domain prog. that why EMTP/ATP/PSCAD-EMTDC are the best electromagnetic -transient program to simulate real time simulation for relay development purpose.
ETAP is good for power suytem studies (i.e. short circuit, load flow, harmonic analysis, stabilty etc.)not for relay development works or performance testing.
Thanks
RE: Relay testers
I forgot to say one more thing in my earlier discussion;
ETAP, PSS/E, EUROSTAGE, SIMPOW, SKM, CYME etc. Electromechanical Transient Programs & EMTP/ATP, PSCAD/EMTDC, NETOMAC etc. Electromegnatic Transient Programs.
Electromechanical Transient Programs are good to study for Power system analysis (i.e. short circuit study, Loadflow, Harmonic analysis & Transient stability etc.), but application of these programms are very less for relay developement works.
Elecrtomegnatic Transient programms are very good for relay developement works; it can able to generate very fast transient ground faults in ungrounded systems as well as series compensated networs, SSRC, Ferro-resonance, Network harmonics-resonances, Switching over voltages, Heavy capacitor inrush currents, TR magnetizing inrush currents, CVT transients and somany things. Sampling rate is also very very then Ele-mech. Transient programms.
Thanks
RE: Relay testers
Finally I "invented" my test system using: 3-phase power supply transformer 380/110 V (from TURH set), lab autotransformer, variable rheostat, ammeter and phase angle meter. And by this "invention" more than 50 relays were tested!
My young engineers now are probably more intelligent than me, but I really doubt whether they could imagine this scheme. Starting directly with numerical tester creates specific way of thinking and IMHO cuts imagination.
But please, don't ask me to test relays with this setup now!
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant