ph.d and employment in engineering
ph.d and employment in engineering
(OP)
While trying to figure out which direction I should take in my future career, a ph.d study has come up as an interesting alternative. I already have an equivalent of European MS degree (dipl.ing. in my country) and have a good opportunity for a ph.d. study in a field I'm interested in, plus work at the institute (at least for now). However I am not interested in an academic career on long-term basis. Is a ph.d. study a smart move? Could a ph.d. degree represent a kind of an obstacle when I apply for a "real" engineering job after a few years of studying + work at a college institute (I do industry-related projects at the institute, not teaching.





RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
corus
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Then, there's my experience (Master's degree) and ditto Corus: you'd have to deal with the envy problem and "whatcha gonna do NOW, College Boy?" attitudes.
I knew of one guy that was fairly happy in his engineering postition because he did not tell them he had gotten his Ph.D. They thought he was a bit of an egghead, but it worked out OK.
TygerDawg
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Not many PhD in the oil patch. I would imagine lots of PhD in the corporate research department of Exxon, Shell, BP, ...
Depends on what you want to do.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
What do you think, what level of (dis)advantage would a phd in this field bring...?
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
If you have access to a technically oriented library (maybe at a university), it might not hurt to scan through the back of some of the more generic society journals and see what's out there.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
There are probably only a handful of companies who employs professionals with a Ph.D. degree. In most cases, these weirdos serve as external consultants for the projects.
Since you have mentioned that you are not interested in an academic career, a Ph.D. is certainly not necessary. For fluid dynamics/CFD, a proper Masters degree should be more than sufficient.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
I don't think it is bad to have it though. If you are not socially inept, then it should not hurt. If you worry that it will keep you from getting the interview, then leave it off. Bring it up at the interview after they see you are normal. Explain that you did not have the oppertunity to add that to your resume yet. Explain why you wanted to get it, and that you know that you will be starting as an entry level engineer. The fear is that Dr. Soandso will think they know everything about the business and practice of engineering then they just know a lot about studying. Once you get some real experience, however, the two together can be pretty powerfull.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
> You're overqualified for the job, so you'll get bored and leave PDQ.
> You're overqualified and will expect a commensurate salary that blows the budget.
> You're a PhD, so you're probably a bookworm who likes to stick to a single subject and only a single subject.
The plus side is that you can play up your tenacity, e.g., you stuck with a x-year program to get the darn thing in the first place; your ability to drill into a subject, e.g., your PhD thesis; which also demonstrates your ability to span different levels of detail on a problem.
If you emphasize your flexibility, your varied interests, your desire to be a broad-area expert, etc., you should be able to mitigate some of the negative connotations.
TTFN
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
If you have a plan like "I'm going to work for NASA" then you should be able to direct your work toward that path.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Another issue to keep in mind is that in my experience, people get pigeonholed very quickly. If you have any experience in any field, then nobody even thinks about interviewing you for anything but that one field. It is very peculiar to me to pay engineers good money based on their intelligence while at the same time assuming they are too stupid to learn anything new, but that's the way the system works. With electronic jobhunting, it seems every opening must have about 800 applicants, all of whom are already working elsewhere, so it can be a frustrating mess. I think this effect would put you at a disadvantage in job hunting for "normal" jobs when you have a PhD.
Re the comment: "Every once in a while I run across advertisments for PhDs in engineering and profesional society journals. The IEEE's monthly magazine usually has a bunch."
What I remember about ads like that is they are nearly always universities looking for faculty. I don't know what the demand is for professor types right now. Either there's plenty of PhD's or there's not. If there's plenty, you've got an uphill struggle to get on to a good job that way; if there's a shortage, it'd be a bit different. When I went to college 20 years ago, there were still two or three of the old professors or associate professors that only had MSME's. But all the guys under 60 had PhD's, and even that only seemed to get you on as a "lecturer" if at all. Professors seem to make good money, but getting to be full "professor" is a bit of a trick, it seems.
I remember that I used to see these weird ads in the ME magazine. They'd go on a for long paragraph about the exact technical qualifications required, experience with this or that software and this or that application, and then you'd get to the end, and the pay would be substandard. I finally figured out those weren't ads looking for anyone- they were ads for positions currently filled by foreignors, with the intent of showing there were no "qualified" applicants and that the existing job holder's visa should be extended. Seems a peculiar way to work things.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
I heard this from someone that was on a board that selected faculty candidates at a well know US university. The conversation took place about 15 years ago. I don’t know how much things might have changed.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
American PhD candidates have been far and few between. Americans have, for the last 220 yrs or so considered PhD types as geeks and "Mr. Peabody's." "Yankee" ingenuity has always been about the uneducated common man being able to outthink the intellectually trained. This has gone even further overboard wince the 60's.
That's about when the foreign graduates became more prevalent, as Americans "dropped out and tuned out." As with the auto industry, it will be decades before we realize that something drastic has changed. The only saving grace is that many foreign graduates stay on because their home countries lack the infrastructure to support them in their chosen fields.
TTFN
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
No company would like to hire a Ph.D. scholar with little or no experience and then offer him/her extensive training and a handsome pay package.
In today's engineering world with most design and manufacturing processes being automated (CAD/CAM/CAE/CAPP), a Ph.D. degree holder is definitely considered over-qualified. Companies prefer to hire professionals with bachelors, masters or even technical degrees and spend less on them in terms of training and compensation.
Just how many ads do we see these days asking for guys with Ph.D.'s? I reckon not more than 5%.
Cheers.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
One of the nich areas in fluids that is hot and in heavy demand right now is Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD). It is math, computer, graphics, and fluids intensive and most folks are looking for Ph.D's, and maybe M.S.'s, but not B.S.'s to do it. I work for a large chemical company and they are looking for several people who have this skill at the moment. A quick look on Monster.com will show you this need spans more than just the chemical industry.
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
You may want to look up just how many PhDs are granted each year in the US. I would think that you would be surprised.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
However, I can't imagine going after my PhD. Just not interested. BUT! I've always been impressed with people who get multiple engineering degrees. Gives you a chance to satisfy curiousity in an adjacent (or non-adjacent) field to your original training. AND it broadens your skill set for various positions. I've seen lots of internal company (and other companies) job postins asking for Mech. or Elec. engineering background. If I were the hiring manager, I'd take a close look at the applicant who possessed both skills.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Engineering doctorates awarded in the US by year
1995 6008
1996 6309
1997 6115
1998 5924
1999 5330
2000 5321
2001 5505
2002 5076
2003 5278
2004 5776--versus 70,000 undergraduate engineering degrees
Certainly not at a fast enough rate to project that PhDs will be common by 2015. In fact, given two trends 1) this year's high school class is the largest ever, and is projected to start decreasing from this peak starting this year and 2) engineering doctorate programs springing up all over the world, especially in China, I would project that the engineering PhD spike in 2004 is temporary uptick, and those numbers will begin to head down very soon.
Based on release date of the 2004 data (Nov. 05), I am guessing it will be 4 months more before the 2005 numbers will be released.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
I did a head count around my office today. I work in engineering software development for IC engines. Of the 18 in my office, 9 have PhD's (not me I hasten to add - I have experience instead).
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Population
1999 - 30,509,323
2000 - 30,790,834
2001 - 31,110,565
2002 - 31,413,990
2003 - 31,946,768
All Undergrad Degree:
1999 126,435
2000 128,570
2001 129,240
2002 134,040
2003 143,975
PhD Degree:
1999 3,965
2000 3,860
2001 3,710
2002 3,720
2003 3,860
Less than 3% of peope who graduated from a post secodary school have a PhD.
I don't have the statistics for how many people don't go to post secondary school, but I will guess about 60%? If so, then 1% of the population has a PhD.
I can't see that number reaching 50% within my lifetime.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
PhDs generally hate man management, signing time sheets, hiring and firing, budgets, going to meetings etc.
In the end it doesnt work out and the PhD heads off to academia and their comfort zone.
Geoffrey D Stone FIMechE C.Eng;FIEust CP Eng
www.waterhammer.bigblog.com.au
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
I overheard such an argument recently. One of our smartest PhDs yelling at our director (not a PhD) that he needed to be managed and that forcing him into management duties was something he wouldn't put up with for long. Fortunately he was listened to and now has the luxury of doing clever stuff whilst others clear up around him.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
If Ph.D guys can yell at their bosses and get away with it, then I am gonna start my Ph.D. degree tomorrow itself.
Cheers.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Anyway, back to the subject... I'm glad most people here think a ph.d. in CFD is worth it, since it's exactly what I'm considering, even if the aforementioned bio-medical and bio-mechanical industries are something I would certanly not mind working in, given the chance. However I am hoping to avoid both work in education and a managing position, since neither is why I went into Engineering. Though it's saddening to see such a bad attitute toward people with ph.d. education... Then again, knwoing some people with ph.ds, no wonder...
To broaden this subject... Basically, I'd like to get into a ph.d. study to gain extra knowledge, not a paper I could boast with... Do you think this is a good idea, or is working experience maybe a better teacher?
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
OTOH, you may also look into getting a more research oriented position at work. A PhD is about in-depth knowledge of ONE subject and the ability to drill down as required to get there, but often, what work requires is simply the ability to drill down enough.
If your goal is to "gain extra knowledge," then a PhD is neither required nor necessarily desirable. What you do need are assignments that escape your "comfort" zone and force you to learn new things.
TTFN
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
I reckon a 28 year old without a PhD is better placed than a 28 year old with one.
These are not contradictory statements.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
The PhD can prove useful in industrial research jobs and tenure-track academic positions. If your goal is to obtain an industrial engineering position, my own experience suggests that the PhD will close more doors for you than it will open. You will hear the phrase, "You're overqualified" more often than not. The pay that you receive will not be substantially greater than the pay earned by someone with an MS degree in the same discipline. And you may unknowingly inspire a sense of jealousy in your less secure co-workers who do not have an advanced degree. If your goal is simply to work in an industrial engineering position that does not involve research, then obtaining the PhD will serve no useful purpose, and will likely make your job search and work life much more difficult. The MS degree will result in a greater career benefit to you for the effort required to earn it.
What I find that surprises many people about having a Ph.D. is that employers are reluctant to hire you unless they absolutely need someone with your particular skill set. There are several downsides that a potential employer sees in hiring a PhD when they could just as easily hire a BS or MS candidate. They fear that you will become bored and seek employment elsewhere as soon as a better job comes along. Then they will have to go through the hiring process all over again. Why should they put themselves through that when they can simply pay someone who is not overqualified less money to do the same job? And the lesser qualified candidate will probably be less likely to jump ship as quickly. There is a general perception that PhDs are over-educated individuals who lack practical hands-on experience and common skill sets. This perception has been clearly expressed in the responses that have been posted to the original question in this thread. For example,
This perception is, at least in my particular case and those of my fellow PhDs, untrue.
Other factors also come into play when they do in fact need to hire a PhD. The applicant’s ethnicity presents an even more difficult problem for employers than usual because most Ph.D.'s that are currently employed in the United States are caucasian men. The federally mandated affirmative action guidelines that employers are required to adhere to stipulate that not only must each company hire a sufficiently diversified workforce, but the employees at each level in that company must also show evidence of this diversity. I myself have been denied the opportunity to interview at more than one company/academic institution because I am not a minority. A friend of mine who formerly worked for a major aluminum manufacturer told me precisely that when he explained to me why I would not be interviewed for the job that he originally encouraged me to apply for. If you look in the job postings for academic positions in the ASME publication Mechanical Engineering, for example, many of the ads contain a phrase at the end of the job posting that are similar to the following, “The University of ________ is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and minorities are strongly encouraged to apply.” If you’re a white American male, that statement tells you that your ethnic background and gender are inconsistent with the job description, even though they have no bearing on your ability to do the work. If you plan on getting a research position in an academic setting, you may run into that problem. This is one of the reasons why many of the college professors that are currently employed in these academic institutions are foreign born. The odd part is that many of the foreign-born students who win fellowships to come here to study for their PhD (which you and I pay for with our tax dollars) are typically hired much more quickly by US companies than US citizens for the same reason, provided they have the paperwork to remain here. It's a good deal for them, and can leave a bad taste in the mouth of Americans like myself. Most people who have not been through this may find it difficult to comprehend. Our own system discourages Americans from earning a PhD. If you look at any engineering PhD program in the US, the vast majority of the students in that program are probably not Americans. It should not be this way, but I see no motivation for this to change anytime in the near future.
Maui
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Minorities, particularly new immigrants have extremely high opinions of people with PhDs, regardless of what subject it's in. My own father pushed me to get a PhD, simply because that's what he felt was a mark of success.
As discussed earlier, American culture holds the opposite; "Yankee ingenuity" and "street smarts" are regarded higher than higher learning is. Most Americans, using examples like Gates, Jobs, and Wozniak, think that success has everything to do with money and vision and little to do with education. Surveys bear this out: from:http://ww
TTFN
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
When I was a grad student, I had a number of discussions with a variety of scientists and engineers in both academia and industry regarding the value of obtaining an M.S. versus a Ph.D. There were two general points of view that I found I could divide the responses into among these individuals. Without exception the academic group all believed that the Ph.D. was worth pursuing. I believe that this was the case because they each had one. The group of people outside of academia generally believed that getting the Ph.D. was not worthwhile. I think this was the case because none of them had one, and they couldn't see the point in spending all of that time and money in pursuing something that they didn't value. Not much of a surprise. If you extrapolate that (unscientific) result to the engineering community in the United States, in general you should find that the majority of the engineers that are out there would not believe that a Ph.D. is worth the time, effort, and expense because most of them don't have one. And some of the individuals who do have one may even share in that same opinion, although that wasn't my personal experience.
I believe that people pursue a career because they are drawn to it for whatever reason. It may be that they have an innate talent for it, such as Greg LeMond in cycling, or Bill Gates in the software business. Or they find that among the limited choices that are available to them, it represents the best choice for a promising career. That was certainly the case for me. A Ph.D. in science and engineering does not guarantee you anything. But it does provide evidence of your demonstrated ability to carry out a detailed scientific experiment or theoretical investigation that draws a definite conclusion of some sort. It takes a great deal of talent, effort, insight, and perserverence. And it takes time, which I believe is more valuable than money.
Maui
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Yes... You see I think the problem I have is that my industry doesn't sell experiments, it sells products. Unless those products get designed, on time, to function, and cost, then we don't have a viable industry any more.
I was just asked to read a report. The guy tested three cars and established the sensitivities of the cars to various inputs. He did a lot of maths. He came up with some conclusions and recommendations for modifications to the new design. He never once directly stated that the new design was already inherently less sensitive to these inputs, and therefore met target already. That would have spoiled his experiment...
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
The notion that people who do not have a PhD think it's not worthwhile is exactly opposite of the culture of non-Americans. My father completed only a BA, but felt very strongly that a PhD was a mark of success. In fact, many immigrant families that come to America and send their children onward toward PhD's barely have high school educations. I would argue that these people, who don't even have college educations value PhD's more than the supposed engineering norm.
We have PhD's working on design solutions for current and future products. It's purely a matter of training and direction. A fresh BSEng is equally unable to contribute to a design right out of school.
TTFN
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
If you are implying that such an individual is attempting to justify the work they wanted to complete by ignoring obvious clear-cut data, then that is your call to make. If you are implying that all Ph.D.s are guilty of the same offense, then you're off the mark. In my current position, I am called upon by process engineers on a weekly (and often on a daily) basis to help them resolve production issues. One of the issues that was brought to my attention recently involved repeated die failures. The engineers were unable to come up with a viable solution. Through an examination of the failed production dies, discussions with the engineers and shop personnel, and metallurgical analysis of the dies and the product that they are used to process, I was able to provide the engineers with the documented solution that they needed in less than two weeks. I was also able to tell them where they could run into trouble in implementing the solution, and who specifically to contact so that they could avoid these pitfalls. By the way, they later told me that this problem had plauged them on and off for almost three years.
Yes, competence is a rare and wonderful thing, and there are some Phds out there who are incompetent. There are many other professionals in different disciplines who also suffer from this same affliction, and I would argue that it has little or nothing to do with the level of education that is attained. It has much more to do with the individual's innate intelligence.
Irstuff, I would agree that the attitude toward educational level does differ greatly among different cultures. In Germany and Austria, a Ph.D. in engineering is held in high respect by engineers. I believe that many immigrants seek a better life for themselves and their children by coming here to the United States. And many of them do view a good education for their children as a necessary step in order to achieve that goal.
Maui
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
Had you properly communicated that same "attitude" to the engineer who performed the work for you, you may have obtained what you originally wanted.
Maui
RE: ph.d and employment in engineering
So many idiots, so few bullets...
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.