×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

ph.d and employment in engineering
5

ph.d and employment in engineering

ph.d and employment in engineering

(OP)
While trying to figure out which direction I should take in my future career, a ph.d study has come up as an interesting alternative. I already have an equivalent of European MS degree (dipl.ing. in my country) and have a good opportunity for a ph.d. study in a field I'm interested in, plus work at the institute (at least for now). However I am not interested in an academic career on long-term basis. Is a ph.d. study a smart move? Could a ph.d. degree represent a kind of an obstacle when I apply for a "real" engineering job after a few years of studying + work at a college institute (I do industry-related projects at the institute, not teaching.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

PhD's attract a higher salary and better promotion prospects in the right company. It's a status thing for a company to have Dr. So-and-so working for them. In the wrong company, however, no manager would employ a clever dick who is smarter than them, and could possibly outshine them in technical matters. You just have to pick the right company.

corus

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

If you expect to get paid a premium for having a Ph.D., then you will have to seek a company/type of work/location that will support this payscale.  I'd say those are generally scarce.

Then, there's my experience (Master's degree) and ditto Corus:  you'd have to deal with the envy problem and "whatcha gonna do NOW, College Boy?" attitudes.

I knew of one guy that was fairly happy in his engineering postition because he did not tell them he had gotten his Ph.D.  They thought he was a  bit of an egghead, but it worked out OK.

TygerDawg

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Getting a PhD is a very big risk, with potentially just as big rewards. Many doors are opened for you with a PhD that are not open, but be careful, more doors are closed to you with PhD. For instance, almost no one would hire you to do scientific level research without a PhD, but almost no one will hire you to do entry level engineering with a PhD. The doors that will be open to you with a PhD though will very often lead you to far more challenging and rewarding career.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

It also varies within industry.

Not many PhD in the oil patch. I would imagine lots of PhD in the corporate research department of Exxon, Shell, BP, ...

Depends on what you want to do.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

(OP)
Thank you all for your replies... What prost said is pretty much what I figured, so I'm not quite sure what to do. My field of interest is modelling in fluid dynamics. Ideally I'd  want to do car or aeroplane aerodynamics optimisation, however any simillar work would do (wind / water / gas / steam turbines design, pipeline fluid flow optimisation, etc - the only one I'd like to avoid is military, eg. modelling aerodynamics of projectiles). Right now I'm working on a project of thermal plant cooling system optimisation including pipeline optimisation and thermal pollution modelling.
What do you think, what level of (dis)advantage would a phd in this field bring...?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Every once in a while I run across advertisments for PhDs in engineering and profesional society journals. The IEEE's monthly magazine usually has a bunch.

If you have access to a technically oriented library (maybe at a university), it might not hurt to scan through the back of some of the more generic society journals and see what's out there.


RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Long ago when I was getting my MSME, my perception was that the main uses for a PhD in ME were either teaching or military-related- not much in general industry.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I believe that a Ph.D. is more suitable for teaching and research related work.

There are probably only a handful of companies who employs professionals with a Ph.D. degree. In most cases, these weirdos serve as external consultants for the projects.

Since you have mentioned that you are not interested in an academic career, a Ph.D. is certainly not necessary. For fluid dynamics/CFD, a proper Masters degree should be more than sufficient.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

(OP)
I see the opinion here is that a ph.d. is pretty much either unnecessary or useless in general engineering - unless one wants to do research or teaching... Which is pretty much how I thought about it too. At present, my idea is to start a ph.d. study since I have an opportunity to, and then finish or not finish - regardless I'll benefit from the knowledge, but won't  let it obstruct my main course in the career. I think soon (in 10 - 15 years) a ph.d. might become as common as a college degree is nowadays, so maybe taking a few steps twoard it while I'm still fresh from college isn't a bad idea. What do you think, how likely is that it'll become useful?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Education is always useful. In that sense Ph.D. is good. Since you have the opportunity, go for it.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Does having a Ph.D. actually hurt you in the job hunt?  Let's say you have a Ph.D., will you get turned down for a job in favor of a someone who stopped with an M.S.?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

A Ph.D can hurt if you act like it makes you that much better, and you deserve a lot in return.

I don't think it is bad to have it though.  If you are not socially inept, then it should not hurt.  If you worry that it will keep you from getting the interview, then leave it off.  Bring it up at the interview after they see you are normal.  Explain that you did not have the oppertunity to add that to your resume yet.  Explain why you wanted to get it, and that you know that you will be starting as an entry level engineer.  The fear is that Dr. Soandso will think they know everything about the business  and practice of engineering then they just know a lot about studying.  Once you get some real experience, however, the two together can be pretty powerfull.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

You might.  There are various justifications for that:

>  You're overqualified for the job, so you'll get bored and leave PDQ.

>  You're overqualified and will expect a commensurate salary that blows the budget.

>  You're a PhD, so you're probably a bookworm who likes to stick to a single subject and only a single subject.

The plus side is that you can play up your tenacity, e.g., you stuck with a x-year program to get the darn thing in the first place; your ability to drill into a subject, e.g., your PhD thesis; which also demonstrates your ability to span different levels of detail on a problem.  

If you emphasize your flexibility, your varied interests, your desire to be a broad-area expert, etc., you should be able to mitigate some of the negative connotations.

TTFN



RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Although not applicable in this case -if it was a full time PhD then you have not got 3 years of real world experience that your cohort has. This does not matter much to a 40 year old, but given the choice between a 26 year old PhD with no industrial experience, and a 26 year old BSME with 3-4 years of useful industrial experience, then there is a strong case for the second guy. I've worked with about 5 PhDs, 4 of whom had done their's full time. I was about to give a breakdown of their performance, but decided against it. Let's just say the odds aren't great.  To be fair we don't do much rocket science.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

If you enjoy the subject you are studying then you might go for it, since you may not get the chance again.  But as some mention, you should look at the employment ads and see what the companies are really looking for.

If you have a plan like "I'm going to work for NASA" then you should be able to direct your work toward that path.  

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

One of the issues I ran into was choice of research topics- there simply weren't any that interested me all that much.  Now that I've been working for twenty years, I can think of all kinds of problems of practical significance that I'm too busy to try to solve.

Another issue to keep in mind is that in my experience, people get pigeonholed very quickly.  If you have any experience in any field, then nobody even thinks about interviewing you for anything but that one field.  It is very peculiar to me to pay engineers good money based on their intelligence while at the same time assuming they are too stupid to learn anything new, but that's the way the system works.  With electronic jobhunting, it seems every opening must have about 800 applicants, all of whom are already working elsewhere, so it can be a frustrating mess.  I think this effect would put you at a disadvantage in job hunting for "normal" jobs when you have a PhD.

Re the comment:  "Every once in a while I run across advertisments for PhDs in engineering and profesional society journals. The IEEE's monthly magazine usually has a bunch."

What I remember about ads like that is they are nearly always universities looking for faculty.  I don't know what the demand is for professor types right now.  Either there's plenty of PhD's or there's not.  If there's plenty, you've got an uphill struggle to get on to a good job that way; if there's a shortage, it'd be a bit different.  When I went to college 20 years ago, there were still two or three of the old professors or associate professors that only had MSME's.  But all the guys under 60 had PhD's, and even that only seemed to get you on as a "lecturer" if at all.  Professors seem to make good money, but getting to be full "professor" is a bit of a trick, it seems.

I remember that I used to see these weird ads in the ME magazine.  They'd go on a for long paragraph about the exact technical qualifications required, experience with this or that software and this or that application, and then you'd get to the end, and the pay would be substandard.  I finally figured out those weren't ads looking for anyone- they were ads for positions currently filled by foreignors, with the intent of showing there were no "qualified" applicants and that the existing job holder's visa should be extended.  Seems a peculiar way to work things.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I have heard that the reason there are so many foreign born PhDs teaching engineering classes in US universities is because industry and government snap up US citizens with PhDs in technical fields.

I heard this from someone that was on a board that selected faculty candidates at a well know US university. The conversation took place about 15 years ago. I don’t know how much things might have changed.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I don't even think that was true a while back.  

American PhD candidates have been far and few between.  Americans have, for the last 220 yrs or so considered PhD types as geeks and "Mr. Peabody's."  "Yankee" ingenuity has always been about the uneducated common man being able to outthink the intellectually trained.  This has gone even further overboard wince the 60's.  

That's about when the foreign graduates became more prevalent, as Americans "dropped out and tuned out."  As with the auto industry, it will be decades before we realize that something drastic has changed.  The only saving grace is that many foreign graduates stay on because their home countries lack the infrastructure to support them in their chosen fields.

TTFN



RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Just echoing Greg's point a little further.

No company would like to hire a Ph.D. scholar with little or no experience and then offer him/her extensive training and a handsome pay package.

In today's engineering world with most design and manufacturing processes being automated (CAD/CAM/CAE/CAPP), a Ph.D. degree holder is definitely considered over-qualified. Companies prefer to hire professionals with bachelors, masters or even technical degrees and spend less on them in terms of training and compensation.

Just how many ads do we see these days asking for guys with Ph.D.'s? I reckon not more than 5%.

Cheers.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

TurbulentFluid,

One of the nich areas in fluids that is hot and in heavy demand right now is Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD).  It is math, computer, graphics, and fluids intensive and most folks are looking for Ph.D's, and maybe M.S.'s, but not B.S.'s to do it.  I work for a large chemical company and they are looking for several people who have this skill at the moment.  A quick look on Monster.com will show you this need spans more than just the chemical industry.

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I've worked with a few people with PhD's and pretty much all of them have been employed on the same terms as other graduates with lesser degrees. I don't know about their pay packets but I'm pretty sure they weren't paid significantly more - they were just a few years older than the other trainees. In fact, at least 2 of them were employed while they finished writing up their thesis, so it clearly wasn't that difficult for them to find work at the end of their studies...

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Quote (TurbulentFluid):

I think soon (in 10 - 15 years) a ph.d. might become as common as a college degree is nowadays ...

You may want to look up just how many PhDs are granted each year in the US. I would think that you would be surprised.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

TFluid:  I don't know if you're going through what I go through but every couple of years, I get a wild hair and want to do something to further my profession.  8 years after my BS I got my PE after being motivated by a classmate that got hers in 6 years.  Now (12 years ABS-after BS) I'm getting my MS because for no other reason than my company pays for everything and sets up the distance learning environment (you gotta love company benefits!).
However, I can't imagine going after my PhD.  Just not interested.  BUT!  I've always been impressed with people who get multiple engineering degrees.  Gives you a chance to satisfy curiousity in an adjacent (or non-adjacent) field to your original training.  AND it broadens your skill set for various positions.  I've seen lots of internal company (and other companies) job postins asking for Mech. or Elec. engineering background.  If I were the hiring manager, I'd take a close look at the applicant who possessed both skills.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

If anyone is interested, from the NSF website.
Engineering doctorates awarded in the US by year
1995 6008
1996 6309
1997 6115
1998 5924
1999 5330
2000 5321
2001 5505
2002 5076
2003 5278
2004 5776--versus 70,000 undergraduate engineering degrees

Certainly not at a fast enough rate to project that PhDs will be common by 2015. In fact, given two trends 1) this year's high school class is the largest ever, and is projected to start decreasing from this peak starting this year and 2) engineering doctorate programs springing up all over the world, especially in China, I would project that the engineering PhD spike in 2004 is temporary uptick, and those numbers will begin to head down very soon.

Based on release date of the 2004 data (Nov. 05), I am guessing it will be 4 months more before the 2005 numbers will be released.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

A data point for the discussion...

I did a head count around my office today.  I work in engineering software development for IC engines.  Of the 18 in my office, 9 have PhD's (not me I hasten to add - I have experience instead).

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Canada:

Population

1999 - 30,509,323

2000 - 30,790,834

2001 - 31,110,565

2002 - 31,413,990

2003 - 31,946,768

All Undergrad Degree:
1999 126,435
2000 128,570
2001 129,240
2002 134,040
2003 143,975

PhD Degree:
1999 3,965
2000 3,860
2001 3,710
2002 3,720
2003 3,860

Less than 3% of peope who graduated from a post secodary school have a PhD.

I don't have the statistics for how many people don't go to post secondary school, but I will guess about 60%? If so, then 1% of the population has a PhD.

I can't see that number reaching 50% within my lifetime.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Oh, numbers from Statistics Canada.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Ahem, speaking of rocket science...In the rocket engine and gas turbine engine world, the PhD's got to run the cool, leading-edge, research-y type projects.  Occasionally, they would have a few of us MS types run around doing odd jobs for them.  Yes, a PhD in CFD will take you a long way, the field is still too new and rough-edged to be anywhere near as "simple" as FEA (and most of the rocket engine shops want people with at least MS's to do aerospace FEA work too).  Chemical, petroleum (prospecting and refining), aerospace, and even automotive (does your off-the-shelf CFD package model fuel cell membrane diffusion?  Does it do it well?) all deal with reacting, turbulent, multi-phase flow fields.  There ain't no pushbutton solutions to those problems.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I have seen PhDs promoted to positions of management because that's what the salary structure requires in a company. ie A PhD wants $X because he or she is smarter than the average bear and only senior managers, accountants, lawyers etc get $X+.

PhDs generally hate man management, signing time sheets, hiring and firing, budgets, going to meetings etc.

In the end it doesnt work out and the PhD heads off to academia and their comfort zone.

Geoffrey D Stone FIMechE C.Eng;FIEust CP Eng
www.waterhammer.bigblog.com.au

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Quote:

PhDs generally hate man management, signing time sheets, hiring and firing, budgets, going to meetings etc

I overheard such an argument recently.  One of our smartest PhDs yelling at our director (not a PhD) that he needed to be managed and that forcing him into management duties was something he wouldn't put up with for long.  Fortunately he was listened to and now has the luxury of doing clever stuff whilst others clear up around him.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

SomptingGuy,

If Ph.D guys can yell at their bosses and get away with it, then I am gonna start my Ph.D. degree tomorrow itself.

Cheers.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I know many PhD working at the bio-medical and nanotechnology industry. If you love to have a PhD, go ahead and don't regret.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

(OP)
Ooof... first things first... I'm sorry to have been innacurate while expressing myself. When musing the signifficance of a ph.d. in near future, I of course projected it on the popullation in relevant areas, or, more accurately, in Engineering practice / schooling. Not people with Ph.ds in general popullation, it would be quite redicilous to even begin such a conversation or process the numbers given and extrapolate to the World (even if they do come from Statistics Canada). Just as a curiosity, in my country, highschool education becomes obligatory as from next month (I think, or maybe next schoolyear, but close enough - the law's been passed).

Anyway, back to the subject... I'm glad most people here think a ph.d. in CFD is worth it, since it's exactly what I'm considering, even if the aforementioned bio-medical and bio-mechanical industries are something I would certanly not mind working in, given the chance. However I am hoping to avoid both work in education and a managing position, since neither is why I went into Engineering. Though it's saddening to see such a bad attitute toward people with ph.d. education... Then again, knwoing some people with ph.ds, no wonder... sad

To broaden this subject... Basically, I'd like to get into a ph.d. study to gain extra knowledge, not a paper I could boast with... Do you think this is a good idea, or is working experience maybe a better teacher?

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

You may look into doing both.  Many companies offer tuition reimbursement, etc.  Moreover, you're more likely to be able to set your thesis topic on something that's relevant to your work.

OTOH, you may also look into getting a more research oriented position at work.  A PhD is about in-depth knowledge of ONE subject and the ability to drill down as required to get there, but often, what work requires is simply the ability to drill down enough.  

If your goal is to "gain extra knowledge," then a PhD is neither required nor necessarily desirable.  What you do need are assignments that escape your "comfort" zone and force you to learn new things.

TTFN



RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I reckon a 45 year old with a PhD is better placed than a 45 year old without one.

I reckon a 28 year old without a PhD is better placed than a 28 year old with one.

These are not contradictory statements.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

I graduated with my Ph.D. in Materials Science in 1992. Through 2005 I worked as a metallurgist in a variety of industries including academic, nuclear, consulting, and specialty steel production. For a period of ten years within that time frame I worked at Crucible Materials Corporation as a Senior Metallurgist, and worked concurrently as an adjunct Assistant Professor in Engineering at Syracuse University.    

The PhD can prove useful in industrial research jobs and tenure-track academic positions. If your goal is to obtain an industrial engineering position, my own experience suggests that the PhD will close more doors for you than it will open. You will hear the phrase, "You're overqualified" more often than not. The pay that you receive will not be substantially greater than the pay earned by someone with an MS degree in the same discipline. And you may unknowingly inspire a sense of jealousy in your less secure co-workers who do not have an advanced degree. If your goal is simply to work in an industrial engineering position that does not involve research, then obtaining the PhD will serve no useful purpose, and will likely make your job search and work life much more difficult. The MS degree will result in a greater career benefit to you for the effort required to earn it.

What I find that surprises many people about having a Ph.D. is that employers are reluctant to hire you unless they absolutely need someone with your particular skill set. There are several downsides that a potential employer sees in hiring a PhD when they could just as easily hire a BS or MS candidate. They fear that you will become bored and seek employment elsewhere as soon as a better job comes along. Then they will have to go through the hiring process all over again. Why should they put themselves through that when they can simply pay someone who is not overqualified less money to do the same job? And the lesser qualified candidate will probably be less likely to jump ship as quickly. There is a general perception that PhDs are over-educated individuals who lack practical hands-on experience and common skill sets. This perception has been clearly expressed in the responses that have been posted to the original question in this thread. For example,

Quote:

There are probably only a handful of companies who employs professionals with a Ph.D. degree. In most cases, these weirdos serve as external consultants for the projects.

Quote:

Ph.D can hurt if you act like it makes you that much better, and you deserve a lot in return.

I don't think it is bad to have it though.  If you are not socially inept, then it should not hurt.  If you worry that it will keep you from getting the interview, then leave it off.  Bring it up at the interview after they see you are normal.

This perception is, at least in my particular case and those of my fellow PhDs, untrue.

Other factors also come into play when they do in fact need to hire a PhD. The applicant’s ethnicity presents an even more difficult problem for employers than usual because most Ph.D.'s that are currently employed in the United States are caucasian men. The federally mandated affirmative action guidelines that employers are required to adhere to stipulate that not only must each company hire a sufficiently diversified workforce, but the employees at each level in that company must also show evidence of this diversity. I myself have been denied the opportunity to interview at more than one company/academic institution because I am not a minority. A friend of mine who formerly worked for a major aluminum manufacturer told me precisely that when he explained to me why I would not be interviewed for the job that he originally encouraged me to apply for. If you look in the job postings for academic positions in the ASME publication Mechanical Engineering, for example, many of the ads contain a phrase at the end of the job posting that are similar to the following, “The University of ________ is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and minorities are strongly encouraged to apply.” If you’re a white American male, that statement tells you that your ethnic background and gender are inconsistent with the job description, even though they have no bearing on your ability to do the work. If you plan on getting a research position in an academic setting, you may run into that problem. This is one of the reasons why many of the college professors that are currently employed in these academic institutions are foreign born. The odd part is that many of the foreign-born students who win fellowships to come here to study for their PhD (which you and I pay for with our tax dollars) are typically hired much more quickly by US companies than US citizens for the same reason, provided they have the paperwork to remain here. It's a good deal for them, and can leave a bad taste in the mouth of Americans like myself. Most people who have not been through this may find it difficult to comprehend. Our own system discourages Americans from earning a PhD. If you look at any engineering PhD program in the US, the vast majority of the students in that program are probably not Americans. It should not be this way, but I see no motivation for this to change anytime in the near future.

Maui

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

We'll have to disagree about the nuances of PhD programs.  Americans, in general, are very distainful of PhDs and that's the main reason there are so few American PhDs.

Minorities, particularly new immigrants have extremely high opinions of people with PhDs, regardless of what subject it's in.  My own father pushed me to get a PhD, simply because that's what he felt was a mark of success.

As discussed earlier, American culture holds the opposite; "Yankee ingenuity" and "street smarts" are regarded higher than higher learning is.  Most Americans, using examples like Gates, Jobs, and Wozniak, think that success has everything to do with money and vision and little to do with education.  Surveys bear this out:

Quote:

Finally, an overwhelming number of respondents (84 percent) reported that “street smarts” is more important in business than an advanced degree.
from:http://www.kornferry.com/Library/Process.asp?P=PR_Detail&CID=1191&LID=1

TTFN



RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Irstuff, from that survey I found this:

Quote:

The Korn/Ferry International Executive Quiz is based on a global survey of executives registered within the firm’s online Executive Center, ekornferry.com. Respondents from 96 countries, representing a wide spectrum of industries and functional areas, participated in the most recent Executive Quiz between July and September 2005.
The survey you referred to was compiled from the responses of executives, not engineers, from 96 different countries, not just the United States.

When I was a grad student, I had a number of discussions with a variety of scientists and engineers in both academia and industry regarding the value of obtaining an M.S. versus a Ph.D. There were two general points of view that I found I could divide the responses into among these individuals. Without exception the academic group all believed that the Ph.D. was worth pursuing. I believe that this was the case because they each had one. The group of people outside of academia generally believed that getting the Ph.D. was not worthwhile. I think this was the case because none of them had one, and they couldn't see the point in spending all of that time and money in pursuing something that they didn't value. Not much of a surprise. If you extrapolate that (unscientific) result to the engineering community in the United States, in general you should find that the majority of the engineers that are out there would not believe that a Ph.D. is worth the time, effort, and expense because most of them don't have one. And some of the individuals who do have one may even share in that same opinion, although that wasn't my personal experience.

I believe that people pursue a career because they are drawn to it for whatever reason. It may be that they have an innate talent for it, such as Greg LeMond in cycling, or Bill Gates in the software business. Or they find that among the limited choices that are available to them, it represents the best choice for a promising career. That was certainly the case for me. A Ph.D. in science and engineering does not guarantee you anything. But it does provide evidence of your demonstrated ability to carry out a detailed scientific experiment or theoretical investigation that draws a definite conclusion of some sort. It takes a great deal of talent, effort, insight, and perserverence. And it takes time, which I believe is more valuable than money.

Maui

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

" A Ph.D. in science and engineering does not guarantee you anything. But it does provide evidence of your demonstrated ability to carry out a detailed scientific experiment or theoretical investigation that draws a definite conclusion of some sort."

Yes... You see I think the problem I have is that my industry doesn't sell experiments, it sells products. Unless those products get designed, on time, to function, and cost, then we don't have a viable industry any more.

I was just asked to read a report. The guy tested three cars and established the sensitivities of the cars to various inputs. He did a lot of maths. He came up with some conclusions and recommendations for modifications to the new design. He never once directly stated that the new design was already inherently less sensitive to these inputs, and therefore met target already. That would have spoiled his experiment...


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Regardless of whether the respondents were executives or not, either way it's a cultural issue.  Their attitudes permeate throughout their organizations and their companies' cultures.  

The notion that people who do not have a PhD think it's not worthwhile is exactly opposite of the culture of non-Americans.  My father completed only a BA, but felt very strongly that a PhD was a mark of success.  In fact, many immigrant families that come to America and send their children onward toward PhD's barely have high school educations.  I would argue that these people, who don't even have college educations value PhD's more than the supposed engineering norm.

We have PhD's working on design solutions for current and future products.  It's purely a matter of training and direction.  A fresh BSEng is equally unable to contribute to a design right out of school.

TTFN



RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Greg, I also work in an industry that sells products worldwide. In order to produce those products on time and at cost, design and development work needs to be done. So does prototype testing. Based on your responses to prior threads, I suspect that you spend a good deal of your time in design and analysis. Once the prototypes are built, someone has to test them and interpret the results. I will assume that the report you referred to was completed by a Ph.D., although this was not explicitly stated in your post. Testing and analysis is a rather common role for industrial PhDs to fulfill. Apparently, the report that was issued did not satisfy your expectations. I have read many reports prepared by other engineers that did not satisfy mine. It is not clear to me what the point is that you're trying to make.

If you are implying that such an individual is attempting to justify the work they wanted to complete by ignoring obvious clear-cut data, then that is your call to make. If you are implying that all Ph.D.s are guilty of the same offense, then you're off the mark. In my current position, I am called upon by process engineers on a weekly (and often on a daily) basis to help them resolve production issues. One of the issues that was brought to my attention recently involved repeated die failures. The engineers were unable to come up with a viable solution. Through an examination of the failed production dies, discussions with the engineers and shop personnel, and metallurgical analysis of the dies and the product that they are used to process, I was able to provide the engineers with the documented solution that they needed in less than two weeks. I was also able to tell them where they could run into trouble in implementing the solution, and who specifically to contact so that they could avoid these pitfalls. By the way, they later told me that this problem had plauged them on and off for almost three years.

Yes, competence is a rare and wonderful thing, and there are some Phds out there who are incompetent. There are many other professionals in different disciplines who also suffer from this same affliction, and I would argue that it has little or nothing to do with the level of education that is attained. It has much more to do with the individual's innate intelligence.

Irstuff, I would agree that the attitude toward educational level does differ greatly among different cultures. In Germany and Austria, a Ph.D. in engineering is held in high respect by engineers. I believe that many immigrants seek a better life for themselves and their children by coming here to the United States. And many of them do view a good education for their children as a necessary step in order to achieve that goal.  

Maui


RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

No, it wasn't by a PhD (so far as I know). I described a beautiful experiment that ignored the important facts in favour of experimental completeness.  One test, in one week, would have confirmed that the new design was sufficiently good. But that would have been a one page report and had no academic rigour. This is similar to the  attitude I quoted from your post. There is a time for academic experimentation, and there is a time for just accepting that some things in life can't be explained today, and menanwhile I need that prototype for important work, not career-boosting experiments.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Quote:

This is similar to the  attitude I quoted from your post. There is a time for academic experimentation, and there is a time for just accepting that some things in life can't be explained today, and menanwhile I need that prototype for important work, not career-boosting experiments.

Had you properly communicated that same "attitude" to the engineer who performed the work for you, you may have obtained what you originally wanted.

Maui

RE: ph.d and employment in engineering

Unfortunately Maui I have zero actual authority when it comes to what other departments get up to. The best I can do after the event is to comment when asked, and when not-asked!

So many idiots, so few bullets...

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources