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Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

(OP)
During a meeting given by an FAA medical type many years ago, he mentioned physical profiling of flight candidates. Is there a similar thing in HR? I need a good book on the subject.

I heard a story of a recent hire in the service industry that went terribly wrong. A professional physical profiling of this candidate would have brought the interview to a screeching halt.(He had an accident with head injury, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.)

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I am not sure what "physical profiling" is.

I know some jobs require a certain "physical" set of parameters to be met. Examples are police and fire personnel, who have to meet certain height and weight minimums. Although, I believe in recent times, that may have changed due to constitutionality and civil rights challenges.

Also, I believe the US navy has a maximum height restriction for submariners. I guess the boat is only so big.

Is this what you mean?

Outside of these specific jobs, is "physical profiling" even allowed to be used in hiring? Isn't that a form of discrimination? Or, am I missing something?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

When we place adds for employment we include descriptions like "may be required to lift 50lb unassisted or up to 100lb with assistance".  I think that may be related to physical profiling.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

MadMango,

Unless lifting 50lbs is a real requirement related to the job, I don't think it's legal in the US.  It amounts to discrimination against those with a disability.  Assuming you're in the US you can read the EEOC poster in the break room.

Physical profiling of pilots is directly related to the job.  If they can't pass their physical, they can't legally fly.  As long as it directly relates to the performance of duties you can use it as a filter.  It's when you start making up duties, and are foolish enough to document them in a help wanted ad, that the lawsuits start.  

-b

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I can walk around freely in a submarine without banging my head on the overhead ...  unless I'm wearing a hard hat, in which case, I bang into _everything_.  The boat is indeed only so big.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

If certain physical requirements are considered Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications, then screening candidates is (I believe) considered legal and non-discriminatory.  From my understanding, "unique" requirements must be listed in the actual job description and likely any posting for that position.

Regards,

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Yes, the legalities are tricky here.  If it's not a real physical requirement of the job, you could end up getting sued. Even if it is a real requirement, you'll have some over-anxious "empowered" individual come in and demand equal footing, even though they may not be qualified.  Reminds me of girls wanting to join high school hockey and football teams.  No offense, ladies, I'm just a bit old fashioned!

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

ornerynorsk,

Girls do play football with the guys. Colorado University had a female kicker.

Girls also wrestle with guys. I have read about it in SI for both high school and college levels. Don't know about the olympics and world level.

Girls play hockey with the guys. I have read about for high school, in the QMJHL and NHL exhibition.

Welcome to the new millenium norsk.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

How about "Can you swim?".  I've heard of this question being used to allegedly assess character.  Some claim it is racist.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

(can you swim -> character or race) what an odd idea!  I've only known two adults who I knew could not swim.  Heck, some of the racists around here are probably most concerned with non-whites who got here by swimming!

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I know lots of adults that can't swim.

That is why the local pool has adult learn to swim programs.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

My swim test experience in navy boot camp seems to reinforce the implications of swimming as a means of race profiling.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

How would one relate race to swimming ability?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

In the USA, the majority of inner-city youths are minorities.  Many inner-city youths do not have beaches, rivers, lakes or even pools to swim in or learn how to swim.  Therefore the thinking goes "if you can't swim you ain't white".

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

The one who brought this to my attention was my old boss, who is black.  He was also a competitive swimmer in high school and college.  Before that, I had heard of one company informally using swimming to gage candidates, but it was a boat equipment manufacturer, so there was some legitimacy to the qualification.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

We build equipment that can weigh up to 400lb.  We require those in engineering to build the prototypes, hence the requirement that candidates be able to lift at least 50lb to handle the sub-assemblies.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Hi there, Ashering.  I dunno, kinda like the old millenium better. LOL.  So what's your opinion on chivalry, is it dead or not?  Should males be involved in physical contact sport with females?  Sorry teen males, I am excluding you from answering this!

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

plasgears may also be refering to the practice of facial profiling. ie. determining a person's character from their face. I'm not sure of its accuracy, but certain things do apply. For instance a person with crow's feet around the eyes and little else is most probably a happy, smiley person, meanwhile someone with pronounced lower facial muscles and deep creases along the lower part of their cheeks from their nostrils to their chin is probably an arrogant person (they purse their mouth). Other indicators of less accuracy (according to me), hair on the temples is said to indicate lower common sense and flared visible nostrils are said to indicate a problem with money. I managed to find a book on it called "The Naked Face", by Lailan Young.

As an aside physical behavoir as a reflection of character is well documented, ie. the way a person responds to other people (crossed arms as opposed to open arms / defensive as opposed to open and inviting)

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

My dad told me when he graduated from college in Germany in the early 1950's, resumes and CV's were done in longhand.  Many firms did not accept typed resumes, and also employed handwriting analysts amongst their personnel management.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

heh heh... well I guess Germany was 50 years ahead of France...
and yes, it appears that some french HR managers still use facial characteristics as a decision basis as ziggi wrote.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

ornerynorsk,

Chivalry is from days gone by. It exists whenever people of those days are together.

When I am in the company of my peers, and the generations before me, I practice the social graces I was taught, because it pertains.

When I am in the conmpany of my child's peers, and the generations that are close to them, I practice the social graces that they were taught, because it pertains.

I do not expect my children to behave towards their peers the way I behave towards mine. Social norms change, that I am aware. What the new social norm is, I am not always sure.

I do not expect females of my generation to participate in contact sports with men - although I am sure some do, and that is perfectly valid.

I more expect females of my children's generation to participate in contact sports with men - although I am sure some do not, and that is also perfectly valid.

What do you think?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I do not believe that chivalry is dead, I believe it just more of an integrity issue now.  Contact sports with women is more a sign of respect than of profiling.  There is nothing wrong with a girl wanting to play football or hockey, please do not misunderstand me.
All I am saying is that I agree with Norsk and it is like chivalry, or more like a sign of respect to women that would make it sound "absurd" for a woman to want to play contact sports with men.

Mike
Green Mountain Window and Door Co.

My opinions are my own and in no way reflect the opinions of my coworkers and company

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Quote (GMWindow):

All I am saying is that I agree with Norsk and it is like chivalry, or more like a sign of respect to women that would make it sound "absurd" for a woman to want to play contact sports with men.

Huh???  banghead

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I miss the handball games with the girls in the highschool.
This is a game (I don't think that in US they play it) that involves a lot of contact. For many, was the first real contact with a girl.
ahahaha. Good times...

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

A postman in the UK was just prosecuted for dumping the post he was supposed to deliver in the surrounding countryside.
He was dyslexic and found it very difficult to complete his rounds. He got off lightly because he had put that he was dyslexic in his application and the Post Office decided it would be discrimination to reject him on these grounds.

What a crazy world... I can just about begin to understand the post office concern in this increasingly American style litigious society, but what made the guy apply for the job in the first place?

PS another postman sued the post office because he hurt his back emptying a post box that was more full than usual and the post office, in turn, sued the one man (woman) company for using the post box for her mailshot..... you can bet reason went out of the window and stayed out in thse cases wen they came to court.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

(OP)
Thanks to all who responded.

To clarify what I was looking for:
A reference in physical profiling would reveal intelligence indicators, probity indicators (tendency to lie), mental aberrations, well-rounded characteristics, leadership indicators, quick thinking indicators, etc.

From what I see today the interview process is mostly subjective without good indicators for the information that really counts.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I would put forward my opinion that the reason most interview process are subjective is because there is no way to do it objectively.

Many large corporations, IBM, P&G, DuPont to name a couple that I have interviewed with, are really looking hard into objective indicators. And, they have tried many different "physical profiling" techniques that have been touted in the past, and I am sure, currently.

In the end, it is still a "crap shoot".

The best predictor of a interviewee's success at the company is the referece of one of your current employee. At the 3 companies that I have worked at, nepotism was encouraged. Because it works better than the rest.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

I would say that the best indicator of a potential employee's future performance would be a solid record of past performance (with particular effective behavior patterns).  There are companies that specialize in training interviewers to look for this information.

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

plasgears,

I don't see how any physical indicators could possibly predict the factors you wish to measure.  There are correlations, for example most CEO's are taller than average, but I think you'll get your pants sued off if you start rejecting new hires because they're "too short".

Perhaps you are referring to IQ, personality, and other psychological tests. These have uses, but you have to know what you're doing.  If you're asking about it here, you need to get in touch with an expert.

-b

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

What am I doing stuck in the Enginnering Department?
I should be CEO, I am the tallest of my company!!!

RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

You also need management hair, black hair that gradually turns silver between 40 and 60 yrs. (Dilbert)


RE: Physical Profiling of Employment Candidates

Real management hair stays black forever, except for a half inch above the collar.  winky smile

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

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