Copying company contacts from outlook
Copying company contacts from outlook
(OP)
Today is my last day, and I would like to have some of the contacts that are in the company's outlook directory. I can import these into google mail for my future personal use.
Ethical or Unethical?
Ethical or Unethical?





RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
If the contacts are for people that you have personnaly met then you could concieveably have their business card in your personnel card collection. No one would think twice about your taking your stack of business cards with you.
Otherwise, if you know the name and company you could recreate the contact info without too much difficulty anyway.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
then do it without telling anyone!
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
But to just go in and mass collect all their database names would be unethical in my book.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
When I left my first company I religiously left everything behind that could have been even slightly useful (and I am not talking about the stapler), but now I regret that I didn't look just a tiny little bit more after myself.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I would say, follow your gut.
What is ethical to you may not be to me.
I think copying the personal contacts, as you are doing, is the right path forward.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Copying the entire email directory of a company is probably unethical. However, copying your personal contacts, internal and external, seems perfectly legit. No different than taking the business cards with you when you clear out your desk.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Over time most people build their own lists in their personal Outlook Contacts list. Typically that contacts list is a combination of company and outside folks that you've had electronic dealings with. I've never heard of a restriction to taking that list when you quit or retire (it is unofficial and maintained by the user), but when people are fired they are rarely allowed to download their contacts list. That makes me wonder. This can easily turn into a slippery slope that tempts you to take an engineering design manual or something that would clearly be wrong.
David
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I completed mine today, and one of the questions referred to the company phone book and could the employee share it with his stockbroker. The answer was no, same as zdas04 recalls.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Oops, I guess you have all the addys.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
The contacts that you have personally had dealing with are your personal contacts. Keep your own copy on your PDA.
When you think about it, the contacts that are the most valuable to you are probably in the group of your personal contacts already. The others are "fishing".
Get any other contacts from the yellow pages.
respectfully
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Go with your gut. If it feels like you are doing something wrong, you probably are.
Rik
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Any list you didn't contribute to, should not be yours to take.
Any list you developed, presumably, you kept a copy in you own PDA/PC/piece of paper, and is hence yourse.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Most contact lists contain only information that exists on the web, phone books & catalogues and was probably compiled by various employees (engineers, buyers, etc) over a period of time. I have found & compiled my own list of contacts over the years & have shared them freely with any company that I have worked for. But I expect reciprocation ... if I have to use a companys contact I will add it to my own list for future reference ... just like collecting a Business Card. The companies have known this & have had no problem with that.
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
For the condition you describe, it sounds harmless and up-front. But each company probably has their own view of their client/contact database. For your descriptive case, it sounds OK. But many other firms aren't so open about it.
Mine has a strict policy that the contact list as a whole comprises the result of years of marketing and relationship building and includes not only phone numbers with names, but also data associated with client history, projects, and future potential.
Taking this information would certainly be stealing if the firm has a set policy that you agreed to when first employed. That would be one of the primary issues - was there an initial agreement that the contact info was the property of the firm?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
That is a rather useful list. Even if I had contributed some names to it, it is still more useful in aggregate than my contribution is.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
HVAC68
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
It is either a list (in days of paper and pencil), a compilation of bits (for most of us), a vague recollection (for those with good recall) or a fragment of our memory (for those with photographic memories).
Are those with photographic memories ethically bound to never look at the list, or just to "forget" the database when they leave? Are those with good recall ethically bound to "forget" what they remember? Am I bound to tear up my hardcopies, delete my e-copy, to never make a copy or to just delete it when I leave?
GregLocock: If you contributed some names to a list, you were paid to do so. Therefore your employer owns a copy of the data. You are not required to forget the some parts - and not other parts - when you leave.
I stick by my original thought: it would be unethical to remove the only copy from your employer, because he paid to have it created. But to not avail yourself to any ethically-acquired data - the quadratic equation, a vendor's address, whatever - would be to unnecessarily limit your own professional development.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
If you take a book, it is not yours. That is the difference.
Experience you gained through your work is yours to keep when you leave.
Goods you made through your work is the company's, it stays.
If you take information off the company computer list, that is the same as taking the book.
If you remember the information off the company computer list, that is the same as experience gained, that is yours to keep.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
IMO, it's what you do with the information that would create an ethics issue.
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I don't see a problem taking a list of contacts with you. Otherwise you might as well give all the oxygen back that you breathed over the years, and don't forget all the coffee...
but then again I am not bound by a US PE license, I can just be as (un)ethical as anybody else...
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
That's just silly. Take the info and do the right thing.
Again, I would never lie, cheat or steal. This is none of these things.
Engineers are so hand-held and tied up by overblown exagerated concepts of ethics that its just ridiculous and aggravating.
Maybe denying you the list is unethical and childish.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I hate to seem silly, but the computer age has re-written the rules about possession, sharing, and where data is "located".
proletariat, I really hope you took a copy, to not have done so would have been cheating you. But I really hope you did not REMOVE the only copy, which would have been cheating your former boss...c'mon the suspense is killing us!
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I was gonna say, "can I not use any knowledge I gathered on the job?" but lha said it better.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
If all obligations were taken care of, and the employer was happy with your contributions aside from the list, but you did the list as an extra, then maybe it can be argued that the employer didn't even pay for the list.
You should take a copy. There is nothing wrong with it. They may not WANT you to just so they can impede you as competition or out of the sour grapes syendrome. But who is to say what they WANT is right?
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I don't actually CARE about this, everything significant I carry from job to job is stored in jellyware or dead wood.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
HVACctrl says: You're not using them to lie, cheat or steal. The whole point of this argument is: "is it stealing?". So saying I can steal as long as I don't steal is circular reasoning. And its like saying that as long as I'm a good boy once I take someone's property, its OK to take someone's property.
lha says: I hate to seem silly, but the computer age has re-written the rules about possession, sharing, and where data is "located". We engineers live and breathe via our intellectual property (all our designs). The concept of intellectual property hasn't changed at all. What's changed is the perception that digital stuff isn't intellectual property. It can be and is. Look at the struggles that the music industry has had to deal with when thousands copy and distribute mp3 files illegally.
The question isn't whether your knowledge and skills and memory can be taken with you and used in your new job.
The original question was whether it was ETHICAL for someone to take a list of clients/contacts from a company database and email it home.
There are personal Outlook files (with your own contacts in them) and company wide client/contact files that have enormous value to a company. There may be some degree of overlap in both. The former are yours. The latter belong to the company and even though it may be easy to take, its still wrong to simply copy and paste it home.
To flippantly say you can just take a company's client list, with the boss not liking it, just because some of its in your head, its easy to do anyway (hey wifey - write this down!), you'll be nice once you take it, and you had a part in its creation, is not describing ethical behavior at all.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I guess I just don't think its stealing- PARTICULARLY those entires that were built by the person in question.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
TTFN
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Anyhoot, we each march to the beat of our own drummer.
If you think it is ethical, then you will do it. If you think it is unethical, they you probably won't.
Like I said earlier, we each follow our own gut feeling.
So, proletariat, back to you.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Don't spend 10 minutes copying the data base. Don't use a company Yellow Pages to look up a business phone number. If you feel you have to, tie one arm behind your back and spend years and countless hours rebulding the data on your own after you leave.
I don't think its unethical. I think its stupid to impeded yourself. You say "to-mah-to", right?
Here's one more for you: I design a buiding HVAC system for a client. It is modern, uses the most energy-efficient equipment and works like a charm. I am so satisfied with the outcome that on the next building I work on, I use the same concepts. Did I steal from the original customer, who, by the way, is extremely happy with the results I provided him? Did I infringe on a copyright? Did I do anything unethical?
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I worked on a project automating some things for a client. We developed a software package as part of the engineering on the project for the client. That application package that we developed, for this project and this client, actually did belong to the client as per the contract, even though we did not originally envision that we would develop the package.
Should our company re-use it, keep a copy in any way, even engineering notes, would have violated the contract, and probably copyright infringements.
Our counsel department came around and did a seminar on intellectual property ownership, and outlined steps the company had to take to satisfy the client. It is quite rigorous.
We turned over everything: notes on engineering pads, stickies, email ... everything.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
If the list contains contact details that are freely and easily available (e.g. phone numbers posted on the suppliers website, and you can get the local reps name by calling them)then I don't really see any issues with taking a copy of that list.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
No contract with your employer not to copy contact lists? Then its OK.
Employment contract that says you can't copy anything? Better work on your memory skills or it may be unethical if you signed that contract.
Also, if you did sign that contract, you should have been making some serious money to adhere to such absurdity.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I understand where you are coming from in terms of names and phone numbers of people "out there" in the business world - people-data which you could easily re-generate on your own after leaving your firm. That data seems innocuous enough and its always hard to say that it is intellectual property.
But the original question, again, was about the ethics of taking an electronic file(s) from your employer upon leaving...not its legality. Is it morally right to take an electronic file from your employer when it was created by an employee of the firm (you), during work hours, and for the purpose of assisting the firm in better managing customers and clients?
You can make up all sorts of scenarios about "I did it on my own initiative after fulfilling all my work duties" - but that's just trying to justify the action. Its still unethical. As an employer, I could counter-justify you by saying, "If you got all your duties done, why didn't you come to me for more billable work instead of preparing that database?", or "Thanks for using your PAID for work time to create such a valuable database FOR OUR FIRM." You simply can't get around the fact that the company paid for that data and owns it.
I've got certain spreadsheets that I created on company time. They belong to the company since they paid me (my salary) for them, regardless of whether I was fulfilling my specific job duties. No one asked me to make them. I was the only one who percieved that they would be needed and valuable. But that doesn't change the fact that the company paid for them and owns them. I've got other engineering spreadsheets that I made at home and use at work - they are mine.
The electronic Outlook file that was created may have further data, beyond yellow pages info, and if so, that makes it even more unethical to take from the firm.
The company can always be asked, and give permission to take the data, which would then make it ethical. But without that knowledge and concurrence, its wrong to do it.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Maybe its a gray area. What if they deny you just out of spite? Does their petty denial of electronically copying (and still leaving the original copy for their use as required) determine whether its ethical or not? I guess it can be argues that whatever their reason, if they say no or you think they might say no, but you do it anyway, then its unethical.
What if you assume they don't mind, you don't bother to even bother anyone with the request and you do it innocently? That could be considered an innocent, ethical act by some.
I guess we can argue and spin it the way we see fit. I just think that engineers are way too constricted by certain limitations. I don't condone doing unethical things, don't get me wrong. I just think that sometimes people think we need straight jackets to keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We typically know well enough when not to go into the jar on our own.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I would think though, that this is a good thing - gets us all thinking and at least considering the ethics of a particular behavior.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Just ask your boss if you can take the info. He might just say "Yes".
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Our company's Outlook address list is strictly internal; there are no outside email addresses there. To some degree, that's probably a good thing, since a successful email worm would hit our all of our customers. An individual's Outlook addresses are rarely that interesting, since any customer is usually in several people's address books. Unlike stockbrokers, engineers don't keep secret "black books."
Many of our individual files are rarely salvaged, once an employee leaves. In fact, we've got such a crunch on computers that there's usually not even enough time to do an audit of a person's PC to find critical information.
TTFN
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Also, I must admit that for the sake of conservatism, one must consider it unethical. When in doubt, err on the side of caution.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
So, if you look up a potential vendor in the super pages, talk to him and decide he might be useful, and copy the vendor name and phone number from the super pages to your contact list, Verizon thinks that you have violated their copyright.
Isn't that interesting.
Now suppose you have a meet with the vendor you get a card. You add the e-mail and fax number to the contact list and toss the card in your desk drawer.
Verizon now has a hell of a time proving that you copied the phone number from the super pages and not the card.
Meanwhile, the vendor WANTS you to have this information. In fact, he wants as many people as possible to have this information.
Seems like ownership of basic contact information could be a pretty muddy area.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
TTFN
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
What would be the motivation for some other company to copy a directory and publish as their own? Directory listing is done for a fee. If you simply copy and publish you have no revenue, that doesn't seem like a viable business model to me.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Now it might be a little crafty and opportunistic, but not necessarily unethical.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Hello all,
It seems unethical to me, here is a line from the Professional Engineers of Ontario Code of Ethics:
3. A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained by the practitioner as to the business affairs, technical methods or processes of an employer and avoid or disclose a conflict of interest that might influence the practitioner's actions or judgment.
Another way at looking at this problem is that it would be unethical to share this information with people outside the company. So if you are leaving the company this is kind of the same thing, you are no longer with the company and should not have access to this information.
Having said this, I am sure many successful entrepreneurs have done this, but then again they are not exactly known for their ethics.
Final note, if you signed a piece of paper that prohibits you from doing this, then it is illegal.
Joseph
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
In fact, now that I think about it, I helped a manager do exactly that a couple of years ago when he retired and went into consulting. We got all his directories converted to files he'd be able to open later without access to this mail system. He didn't copy the central database wholesale, but you can bet that the contacts he thought he'd want to deal with later had been copied over into the personal directories he was taking with him. No one thought a thing of it.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
For my work I spend some time in Internet (specially in Eng-Tips) consulting websites of manufacturers, technical articles, governing bodies, etc. in order to no "reinvent the wheel". Is there any doubt that in the day that I leave I will take all the Favorites list with me? This list meant hours and hours in the net to weed off sites that were not interesting or had wrong information.
Of course I will leave a copy with my company.
I don't see how this is different from the issue of the contacts.
Lets us know which was your decision.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
If I can easily grab it without fear of someone seeing, I would grab it. Then later I can sort out how my conscience feels about it and what I am comfortable doing with the list. At least at that point I still I have the choice. If I didn't get it when I had the chance, then I have no more choices.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
I say copying the contacts is fine.
Ed
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Should we download any knowledge we picked up on the job out of our brains and leave it at the present company?
RE: Copying company contacts from outlook
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.