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Copying company contacts from outlook
6

Copying company contacts from outlook

Copying company contacts from outlook

(OP)
Today is my last day, and I would like to have some of the contacts that are in the company's outlook directory.  I can import these into google mail for my future personal use.

Ethical or Unethical?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Probably ethical, although your future former employer may not be pleased.

If the contacts are for people that you have personnaly met then you could concieveably have their business card in your personnel card collection.  No one would think twice about your taking your stack of business cards with you.

Otherwise, if you know the name and company you could recreate the contact info without too much difficulty anyway.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

If you ave to ask...

then do it without telling anyone!

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I'd recommend proceeding in a similar vein to what MintJulep states - collecting the information of people you knew would probably be acceptable, assuming there is no company policy directly prohibiting it.  

But to just go in and mass collect all their database names would be unethical in my book.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Don't try to be more catholic than the pope. Email addresses of other people are not proprietary information. Import them or just write them down on paper if you're afraid of being harassed by the IT dept.

When I left my first company I religiously left everything behind that could have been even slightly useful (and I am not talking about the stapler), but now I regret that I didn't look just a tiny little bit more after myself.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

(OP)
I was in the process of copying over every contact that could conceivably be useful, when I got a bad gut feeling.  I limited it to personal contacts.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

If you have to ask, then you probably think it is unethical.

I would say, follow your gut.

What is ethical to you may not be to me.

I think copying the personal contacts, as you are doing, is the right path forward.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Ethics is about acceptable conduct, not about "guilty feelings".

Copying the entire email directory of a company is probably unethical.  However, copying your personal contacts, internal and external, seems perfectly legit.  No different than taking the business cards with you when you clear out your desk.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

In that case, copy the company contacts to your personal contacts ... and then take that with you. lol

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Most companies that I've been involved with have a "confidential" stamp on the paper copies of the company phone directory.  If they consider a list of employees and their phone numbers confidential then you can bet that the Outlood version of the same data is highly confidential.  

Over time most people build their own lists in their personal Outlook Contacts list.  Typically that contacts list is a combination of company and outside folks that you've had electronic dealings with.  I've never heard of a restriction to taking that list when you quit or retire (it is unofficial and maintained by the user), but when people are fired they are rarely allowed to download their contacts list.  That makes me wonder.  This can easily turn into a slippery slope that tempts you to take an engineering design manual or something that would clearly be wrong.

David

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I left a company after 4.5 years.  I did not take my personal Outlook Contacts, but I wish I had.  They were put there by me, for me.  True, it was on my bosses dime.  That is why you shouldn't delete/remove them.  But, as most others seem to be indicating, it will be like taking a spare business card...I wouldn't take the only copy, but I would copy the only copy.  No harm.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

All employees at my company are required annually to complete a certification regarding standards of business conduct.

I completed mine today, and one of the questions referred to the company phone book and could the employee share it with his stockbroker. The answer was no, same as zdas04 recalls.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

So, what you do is you keep your PDA synch'ed with Outlook.  Then you can just walk away.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Stick to your personal contacts.  Anything else would be unethical....they belong to others.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Simple, just send an Email to all those contacts you wish to keep stating it has been a pleasure working with you. Make sure you send one to your personal Email addy also, you know, just to make sure you have a copy in case.

Oops, I guess you have all the addys.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I agree with Ron.
The contacts that you have personally had dealing with are your personal contacts. Keep your own copy on your PDA.
When you think about it, the contacts that are the most valuable to you are probably in the group of your personal contacts already. The others are "fishing".
Get any other contacts from the yellow pages.
respectfully

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Pro,

Go with your gut. If it feels like you are doing something wrong, you probably are.

Rik

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

It would only be unethical if you intend to use those contacts to steal work away from your previous employer. If you are just going to use those contacts as suppliers for your new company, what's the problem?

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Oo, are you saying that developing a supplier list is a zero cost activity for a company? If so, why bother copying the list?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I agree with Greg on this one.

Any list you didn't contribute to, should not be yours to take.

Any list you developed, presumably, you kept a copy in you own PDA/PC/piece of paper, and is hence yourse.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Oo, no I am not saying anything of the sort, but thanks for the "read-between-the-lines" (mis)interpretation.

Most contact lists contain only information that exists on the web, phone books & catalogues and was probably compiled by various employees (engineers, buyers, etc) over a period of time. I have found & compiled my own list of contacts over the years & have shared them freely with any company that I have worked for. But I expect reciprocation ... if I have to use a companys contact I will add it to my own list for future reference ... just like collecting a Business Card. The companies have known this & have had no problem with that.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

CorBlimeyLimey,

For the condition you describe, it sounds harmless and up-front.  But each company probably has their own view of their client/contact database.  For your descriptive case, it sounds OK.  But many other firms aren't so open about it.

Mine has a strict policy that the contact list as a whole comprises the result of years of marketing and relationship building and includes not only phone numbers with names, but also data associated with client history, projects, and future potential.  

Taking this information would certainly be stealing if the firm has a set policy that you agreed to when first employed.  That would be one of the primary issues - was there an initial agreement that the contact info was the property of the firm?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I'll give an example. Suppose I worked in Australia, and our buying group had spent time in China locating the rather few and far between suppliers who can (a) speak English, (b) understand our quality and timing requirements and (c) actually have an accounting system.

That is a rather useful list. Even if I had contributed some names  to it, it is still more useful in aggregate than my contribution is.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

What if I have a great memory (I used to have, before the PDA/computer/mobile days) and am able to remember all or at least the most important ones.  Can I use this memory and use the contacts at my new work place ???

HVAC68

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Despite what I said above, I would tend to think that anything in my brain is mine.  But someone with a photographic memory would blow away my assertions above!

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

...and HVAC hits exactly on why this database belongs to all who worked on it.

It is either a list (in days of paper and pencil), a compilation of bits (for most of us), a vague recollection (for those with good recall) or a fragment of our memory (for those with photographic memories).

Are those with photographic memories ethically bound to never look at the list, or just to "forget" the database when they leave?  Are those with good recall ethically bound to "forget" what they remember?  Am I bound to tear up my hardcopies, delete my e-copy, to never make a copy or to just delete it when I leave?

GregLocock: If you contributed some names to a list, you were paid to do so.  Therefore your employer owns a copy of the data.  You are not required to forget the some parts - and not other parts - when you leave.

I stick by my original thought: it would be unethical to remove the only copy from your employer, because he paid to have it created.  But to not avail yourself to any ethically-acquired data - the quadratic equation, a vendor's address, whatever - would be to unnecessarily limit your own professional development.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

If you rembemer it in your head, it is yours.

If you take a book, it is not yours. That is the difference.

Experience you gained through your work is yours to keep when you leave.

Goods you made through your work is the company's, it stays.

If you take information off the company computer list, that is the same as taking the book.

If you remember the information off the company computer list, that is the same as experience gained, that is yours to keep.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

If you remember it in your head until you get home, then add it to your personal list at home, does it cease to be yours? You haven't forgotten it, you've just made a backup copy!

IMO, it's what you do with the information that would create an ethics issue.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Exactly. How many of you found a next job using contacts they met during their old job? Would that be unethical? Why would you voluntarily fight for yourself with both hands bound behind your back?

I don't see a problem taking a list of contacts with you. Otherwise you might as well give all the oxygen back that you breathed over the years, and don't forget all the coffee...
but then again I am not bound by a US PE license, I can just be as (un)ethical as anybody else... smile

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

You're not using them to lie, cheat or steal. I don't see how its unethical. Maybe you will be competition. Oh well. Does that mean that even if you met someone during your tenure there you can never call them because its unethical?

That's just silly. Take the info and do the right thing.
Again, I would never lie, cheat or steal. This is none of these things.

Engineers are so hand-held and tied up by overblown exagerated concepts of ethics that its just ridiculous and aggravating.

Maybe denying you the list is unethical and childish.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

To add more complexity, my printer at home is broken.  If I remember it in your head until I get home, then add it to my personal list at home, then email it to my work address, then print it out, can I have that hardcopy?  If I write it down at home, is that OK?  If I write it down at work, is that OK?  If I call my wife from work, ask her to write it down, is that OK?  If I yell down the stairs from my home computer, ask my wife to write it down, is that OK?  If I open it on my laptop at a WIFI truckstop, and write it down, is that OK?  If I rent printer time at that WIFI truckstop, print it, is that OK?

I hate to seem silly, but the computer age has re-written the rules about possession, sharing, and where data is "located".

proletariat, I really hope you took a copy, to not have done so would have been cheating you.  But I really hope you did not REMOVE the only copy, which would have been cheating your former boss...c'mon the suspense is killing us!

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

lha has nailed it.

I was gonna say, "can I not use any knowledge I gathered on the job?" but lha said it better.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Also lha mentions that company paid to have it created so at least one copy is theres. While I agree, it could be that it wasn't in the job desciption or list of responsibilities to create that list, but was done on your own.

If all obligations were taken care of, and the employer was happy with your contributions aside from the list, but you did the list as an extra, then maybe it can be argued that the employer didn't even pay for the list.

You should take a copy. There is nothing wrong with it. They may not WANT you to just so they can impede you as competition or out of the sour grapes syendrome. But who is to say what they WANT is right?

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

So if you contribute to a database you have an ethical 'right' to a copy of the entire database? Is that what I'm hearing?

I don't actually CARE about this, everything significant  I carry from job to job is stored in jellyware or dead wood.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I hate to disagree but these statements just don't make sense.

HVACctrl says:  You're not using them to lie, cheat or steal.  The whole point of this argument is:  "is it stealing?".  So saying I can steal as long as I don't steal is circular reasoning.  And its like saying that as long as I'm a good boy once I take someone's property, its OK to take someone's property.

lha says:  I hate to seem silly, but the computer age has re-written the rules about possession, sharing, and where data is "located".   We engineers live and breathe via our intellectual property (all our designs). The concept of intellectual property hasn't changed at all.  What's changed is the perception that digital stuff isn't intellectual property.  It can be and is.  Look at the struggles that the music industry has had to deal with when thousands copy and distribute mp3 files illegally.

The question isn't whether your knowledge and skills and memory can be taken with you and used in your new job.  

The original question was whether it was ETHICAL for someone to take a list of clients/contacts from a company database and email it home.  

There are personal Outlook files (with your own contacts in them) and company wide client/contact files that have enormous value to a company.  There may be some degree of overlap in both.  The former are yours.  The latter belong to the company and even though it may be easy to take, its still wrong to simply copy and paste it home.

To flippantly say you can just take a company's client list, with the boss not liking it, just because some of its in your head, its easy to do anyway (hey wifey - write this down!), you'll be nice once you take it, and you had a part in its creation, is not describing ethical behavior at all.  

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Jae.
I guess I just don't think its stealing- PARTICULARLY those entires that were built by the person in question.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

THAT is definitely a non-argument.  If your customer pays for your design, doesn't he own it outright?  The fact that you did the work is irrelevant.  Who paid for it is.

TTFN



RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

If you have to copy it and send it home, it probably is stealing.

Anyhoot, we each march to the beat of our own drummer.

If you think it is ethical, then you will do it. If you think it is unethical, they you probably won't.

Like I said earlier, we each follow our own gut feeling.

So, proletariat, back to you.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Go ahead. Spend 3 years and countless hours rebuilding a data base that you built on your own at your job. The company never paid you to do it because you were already fulfilling all of your job requirements but did the data base as an extra-curicular activity. Granted, some of it may have been done on company time. But again, you were already doing all the your assignments without having to build the data base.

Don't spend 10 minutes copying the data base. Don't use a company Yellow Pages to look up a business phone number. If you feel you have to, tie one arm behind your back and spend years and countless hours rebulding the data on your own after you leave.

I don't think its unethical. I think its stupid to impeded yourself. You say "to-mah-to", right?

Here's one more for you: I design a buiding HVAC system for a client. It is modern, uses the most energy-efficient equipment and works like a charm. I am so satisfied with the outcome that on the next building I work on, I use the same concepts. Did I steal from the original customer, who, by the way, is extremely happy with the results I provided him? Did I infringe on a copyright? Did I do anything unethical?

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

It depends.

I worked on a project automating some things for a client. We developed a software package as part of the engineering on the project for the client. That application package that we developed, for this project and this client, actually did belong to the client as per the contract, even though we did not originally envision that we would develop the package.

Should our company re-use it, keep a copy in any way, even engineering notes, would have violated the contract, and probably copyright infringements.

Our counsel department came around and did a seminar on intellectual property ownership, and outlined steps the company had to take to satisfy the client. It is quite rigorous.

We turned over everything: notes on engineering pads, stickies, email ... everything.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I think it depends on the work involved in creating the contact list as well. If, to borrow Greg's example a lot of time, effort and expense cultivating contacts who had contacts who knew suppliers that spoke english it would be unethical to then take details of that contact unless they were also in your personal contacts list.

If the list contains contact details that are freely and easily available (e.g. phone numbers posted on the suppliers website, and you can get the local reps name by calling them)then I don't really see any issues with taking a copy of that list.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Points taken.
No contract with your employer not to copy contact lists? Then its OK.

Employment contract that says you can't copy anything? Better work on your memory skills or it may be unethical if you signed that contract.

Also, if you did sign that contract, you should have been making some serious money to adhere to such absurdity.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Ed,

I understand where you are coming from in terms of names and phone numbers of people "out there" in the business world - people-data which you could easily re-generate on your own after leaving your firm.  That data seems innocuous enough and its always hard to say that it is intellectual property.

But the original question, again, was about the ethics of taking an electronic file(s) from your employer upon leaving...not its legality.  Is it morally right to take an electronic file from your employer when it was created by an employee of the firm (you), during work hours, and for the purpose of assisting the firm in better managing customers and clients?  

You can make up all sorts of scenarios about "I did it on my own initiative after fulfilling all my work duties" - but that's just trying to justify the action.  Its still unethical.  As an employer, I could counter-justify you by saying, "If you got all your duties done, why didn't you come to me for more billable work instead of preparing that database?", or "Thanks for using your PAID for work time to create such a valuable database FOR OUR FIRM." You simply can't get around the fact that the company paid for that data and owns it.

I've got certain spreadsheets that I created on company time.  They belong to the company since they paid me (my salary) for them, regardless of whether I was fulfilling my specific job duties.  No one asked me to make them.  I was the only one who percieved that they would be needed and valuable.  But that doesn't change the fact that the company paid for them and owns them.  I've got other engineering spreadsheets that I made at home and use at work - they are mine.

The electronic Outlook file that was created may have further data, beyond yellow pages info, and if so, that makes it even more unethical to take from the firm.  

The company can always be asked, and give permission to take the data, which would then make it ethical.  But without that knowledge and concurrence, its wrong to do it.


RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Makes sense JAE. I can see your point.

Maybe its a gray area. What if they deny you just out of spite? Does their petty denial of electronically copying (and still leaving the original copy for their use as required) determine whether its ethical or not? I guess it can be argues that whatever their reason, if they say no or you think they might say no, but you do it anyway, then its unethical.

What if you assume they don't mind, you don't bother to even bother anyone with the request and you do it innocently? That could be considered an innocent, ethical act by some.

I guess we can argue and spin it the way we see fit. I just think that engineers are way too constricted by certain limitations. I don't condone doing unethical things, don't get me wrong. I just think that sometimes people think we need straight jackets to keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We typically know well enough when not to go into the jar on our own.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Ed - "gray area" ... you hit the nail on the head for sure as is evidenced by our running (and friendly I hope) debate here.   Ethics seminars thrive on posing difficult situations where these sorts of point-counterpoint conversations happen.  

I would think though, that this is a good thing - gets us all thinking and at least considering the ethics of a particular behavior.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

JAE...well said.

Just ask your boss if you can take the info.  He might just say "Yes".

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Functionally, it's a bit tricky about the fate of address books and the like.  

Our company's Outlook address list is strictly internal; there are no outside email addresses there.  To some degree, that's probably a good thing, since a successful email worm would hit our all of our customers.  An individual's Outlook addresses are rarely that interesting, since any customer is usually in several people's address books.  Unlike stockbrokers, engineers don't keep secret "black books."

Many of our individual files are rarely salvaged, once an employee leaves.  In fact, we've got such a crunch on computers that there's usually not even enough time to do an audit of a person's PC to find critical information.

TTFN



RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Definitely I meant to be friendly.

Also, I must admit that for the sake of conservatism, one must consider it unethical. When in doubt, err on the side of caution.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I just looked at my Verizon super pages.  There is a little copyright symbol on every page.

So, if you look up a potential vendor in the super pages, talk to him and decide he might be useful, and copy the vendor name and phone number from the super pages to your contact list, Verizon thinks that you have violated their copyright.

Isn't that interesting.

Now suppose you have a meet with the vendor you get a card.  You add the e-mail and fax number to the contact list and toss the card in your desk drawer.

Verizon now has a hell of a time proving that you copied the phone number from the super pages and not the card.

Meanwhile, the vendor WANTS you to have this information.  In fact, he wants as many people as possible to have this information.

Seems like ownership of basic contact information could be a pretty muddy area.



RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

The copyright serves to protect Verizon from some other directory provider simply copying their pages and using them as their own.  While the copyright can also be used against the user of said directory, dollars to doughnuts, that's not the intent of the copyright protection.

TTFN



RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

What are Verizon Superpages?

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

VErizon super pages is a phone directory for commercial businesses.  Essentially it's the Yellow Pages without the residential phone listings.

What would be the motivation for some other company to copy a directory and publish as their own?  Directory listing is done for a fee.  If you simply copy and publish you have no revenue, that doesn't seem like a viable business model to me.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Regardless, it is still copyright infringement.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I'm not convinced that a list of company names and phone numbers, of companies that paid you to list their names and phone numbers constitutes intellectual property.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Back on the Outlook Contacts. I think it could be unethical if its something you don't ordinarily have access to. But with everyday access, it seems no big deal.

Now it might be a little crafty and opportunistic, but not necessarily unethical.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook


Hello all,

It seems unethical to me, here is a line from the Professional Engineers of Ontario Code of Ethics:

3.  A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained by the practitioner as to the business affairs, technical methods or processes of an employer and avoid or disclose a conflict of interest that might influence the practitioner's actions or judgment.

Another way at looking at this problem is that it would be unethical to share this information with people outside the company. So if you are leaving the company this is kind of the same thing, you are no longer with the company and should not have access to this information.

Having said this, I am sure many successful entrepreneurs have done this, but then again they are not exactly known for their ethics.

Final note, if you signed a piece of paper that prohibits you from doing this, then it is illegal.


Joseph

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I'd do what the original poster proposes in a heartbeat, if I'm understanding correctly.  Not only is a lot of that info already stored on my personal cell phone (I don't like the company phones), but I've created quite a few of my own directories that no one here uses but me, and some of the contacts from the agency address book are copied over in "my" directories as well for my convenience.  I would have no qualms whatsoever about printing out those directories or importing them to another format.  

In fact, now that I think about it, I helped a manager do exactly that a couple of years ago when he retired and went into consulting.  We got all his directories converted to files he'd be able to open later without access to this mail system.  He didn't copy the central database wholesale, but you can bet that the contacts he thought he'd want to deal with later had been copied over into the personal directories he was taking with him.  No one thought a thing of it.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

As defended here by some, I would copy the ones that I personally involved into getting them. This is the same with our Internet Favorites.
For my work I spend some time in Internet (specially in Eng-Tips) consulting websites of manufacturers, technical articles, governing bodies, etc. in order to no "reinvent the wheel". Is there any doubt that in the day that I leave I will take all the Favorites list with me? This list meant hours and hours in the net to weed off sites that were not interesting or had wrong information.
Of course I will leave a copy with my company.
I don't see how this is different from the issue of the contacts.
Lets us know which was your decision.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

I haven't read all the intricate ethical analysis. But I have to say that I agree with TheTick.

If I can easily grab it without fear of someone seeing, I would grab it.  Then later I can sort out how my conscience feels about it and what I am comfortable doing with the list.  At least at that point I still I have the choice.  If I didn't get it when I had the chance, then I have no more choices.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

What if some of those contacts were vendors who might supply you with some products or services and the relationship had no effect on your old company? WOuld it be OK then? Would you then have to weed through all the contacts and only copy those that would have no effect on you old company? Who would be qualified to make the determination as to the effect on the old company?

I say copying the contacts is fine.

Ed

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

In that case, you should send out a mass email indicating that you are company XYZ, and can be reached at company 123's email address.

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Uhhh OK. You say potAto, I say potato.

Should we download any knowledge we picked up on the job out of our brains and leave it at the present company?

RE: Copying company contacts from outlook

Yes. On the proviso that you had your brain vaccumed out before joining the current company.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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