×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Just to let you know

Just to let you know

Just to let you know

(OP)
I am an 8 year veteran of Solidworks, I have recently been hired with a company that uses Inventor, I am finding no problems for the most part, But With some of the things I feel I'm missing something here. More Questions to come....
smile

RE: Just to let you know

100 parts is hardly a large assembly...I work with assemblies in Solidworks with up to 3000 parts. Very little stability issues.

In your opinion, what about the Inventor interface is superior? I've dabbled with it some and it looks like most 3d cad programs. Has a feature tree, dialogues for creating features. Nothing really bad, but nothing revolutionary either.

True Parametrics....please explain?

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

Given that it takes at least 3 constraints to fully lock an assembly part into position, 100 parts implies 300 constraints. SW has a well-known and acknowledged "300 mate" limit, after which the assembly file becomes unstable. There are numerous references to this limitation on SW forums over the years. This forces the use of a sub-assembly structure, as a workaround, even in a design that has only one level of assembly in production.

What I appreciate most about Inventor is that it installs in "novice " mode, simple menus and user interface. As a user progresses, more sophisticated facilities are available.

For the veteran user, the Design Accelerators allow true feature-based modeling, as opposed to the traditional "sketch and extrude" methodology of SW amd other mid-range modelers.

By "true parametrics", I mean table-driven parts and assemblies, with the potential for declaring global variables across an entire array of parts, and to "program" the assembly with equations. This makes it possible to embed real-world design rules. I learned this technique years ago with Mechanical Desktop, and continue to apply it with Inventor.

RE: Just to let you know

What is Design Accelerators? Is this like smart components and library features in Solidworks?

Well, I've done excel tables that drive assemblies which in turn drive the parts in Solidworks. There might be different ways to go about it I suppose and Solidworks really needs to work on its equation function.

The little I've played around with IV, I like it's derived part feature since it allowed bringing in nearly everything (sketch, equations, etc.). There were no real configurations which would make my life difficult, something I'm going through with UG right now.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

A picture is worth a thousand words !

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/INV11_Detail_Brochure.pdf

Design Accelerators are the result of integrating Mechsoft into Inventor, truly parametric design features driven by project requirements and engineering standards, not just dimension-driven geometry.

SW interpretation of table-driven parts is primitive and limited, most users I've talked to rarely make the effort. SW configurations only allow control of visibility and sizing of individual parts, and some limited positional control, using offset planes. Table-driven assemblies in IV are an order of magnitude beyone this.

As engineers, we evaluate the quality of new components and facilities, at least in part, by researching the source. Autodesk is an American company, with a 23 year history of setting the standard for CAD software. For info on SW, see the link I placed above in my first response to this thread.

RE: Just to let you know

It's time to convince your employer to switch to Solidworks. Like you I had been working with Solidworks for about 8 yrs, recently I changed job to a new company that uses Inventor; the software is inferior compared to SW.  After giving each engineering member a copy of the Solidworks demo, I was able to convince the company to make the change.  Everyone was excite and happy as a result.  

I think Inventor has a way to go before it can  be as good as some mature softwares like SW. The important thing that comes to mind comparing Solidworks to Inventor is the ease of handling an assembly with up to 4000 parts, mating or part constaint is a peace of cake in SW; you can also easily edit the part right in the assembly because it' so easy to rotate (one hand) and it's so easy to visually inspect the part within the asembly, unlike Inventor where everything require extra step to get done.    
    

RE: Just to let you know

RICH942………
Are your criticisms of SW configurations and mate limitations based on fact or opinions?

Have you used Solidworks? Configurations are a very powerfully feature.

Autodesk (and some IV users) are excellent at putting out inaccurate information about competitor products, especially SW. It’s what’s known as scaremongering.

Eddy
(SW2006 user)

RE: Just to let you know

Autodesk may be an old company that is the standard in 2d....but with all the stiff 3d competition and the fact that most product design is going to 3d....looks like they will have to get used to not being number 1.

Luckily for all of us....the competition should drive for some inovative functionality that's good for us users. Just look at how stagnant Autocad has been over the years...only recently have they "spruced" it up some to try an counter losing customers.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

I have been in engineering since 1974, and have used every major CAD application in widespread useage since the early 80's. I developed and distributed three AutoCAD add-ons in the mid 90's, an effort requiring a detailed understanding of CAD database structure. My opinions are based on first-hand experience, and not clouded by emotional loyalty to any particular product or software vendor. Autodesk is a billion dollar company with around 3000 employees, based in America and employing an American workforce. SW is owned by Dassault (French) and outsources its programming to India. Whose product would you expect to be superior ?

Autodesk, to my knowledge, does NOT disseminate information about their competitors, other than comparitive sales figures from independent sources, industry analysts such as Daratech and Dataquest. I work in a predominantly SW environment, and have used the product when necessary since its introduction. The lack of contemporary features and instability have caused me to move any of my crucial projects to Inventor, a product I have also used since its inception.

To anyone who has doubts about the true industry leaders in 3D CAD, I would suggest that if you are serious about keeping current on this topic, study to become a recognized and reviewed software developer, and/or join the subscription websites that compile accurate and unbiased industry data.

Unless I am mistaken, this forum is for those of us who already use Inventor, and genuinely appreciate its stability, compatibility, and depth of developement.

RE: Just to let you know

Rich, I'd say you are just as IV biased as many CAD users are of their program of choice. If IV was superior, then the former IV users on the Solidworks forums would be bitchin up a storm. They also talk about how unstable IV is. Fact is, both programs have features that they do better than the other.

Also, Solidworks' parent company is french, but it started and continues to reside in the US with some of it add-in products it purchased and integrated being from other countries. Primary core programming is done here in the states.

You want to discuss Autodesk marketing and disseminating info? How about their bloated seat numbers. If they reallly were the number one seller with more seats than Solidworks, then how come there is only about a third of Inventor jobs as there are Solidworks? Or how about their older adaptivity marketing stuff, like they created some new concept. Or how only until very recently, Solidworks imported/exported DWG better than IV did.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

On the issue of instability, any CAD software can be crashed to desktop by poor modeling practices, inadequate hardware, or frantic mouse clicks.
Please see the second post in this thread for the link to a BusinessWeek magazine article, petaining to the location of the SW programming effort.
As for Autodesks installation base, the numbers are published in their quarterly reports. If there were any gross distortion, it would be investigated by the SEC. They do not include "institutional donations" (shelfware) as SW does, a tactic they learned from Apple.
Job posting do not represent software market saturation. SW is typically found in smaller organizations with higher turnover, while many larger employers have retained their workforce by upgrading from AutoCAD to MDT to Inventor, with appropriate training. The Autodesk-trained workforce is more stable, hence fewer job posts.
I preceive CAD software as a means to an end, no more. If another application is developed and becomes available to me, that is superior to Inventor, I will switch without hesitation.

RE: Just to let you know

Autodesk anything is really a mirage for "etch a sketch"!

RE: Just to let you know

The Solidworks source code theft was by an employee of Geometric software solutions in India which happens to code some of the add-ins like feature/works, and utilties. As I said, the core code is done here in the USA.

Autodesk and Solidworks publish new seats counts in their quarterly statements that do not include educational seats. It's the total seat counts that they both list that does include educational. Both claim to have in the 500,000's of seats.

Gross distortions? SEC?.....technically...what they do isn't illegal. They give away Inventor seats with Autocad mechanical and Mechanical desktop customers...then claim superior numbers. Doesn't matter if they use it or not. On the other hand, customers that buy Solidworks use it.

The Autodesk-trained workforce is more stable, hence fewer job posts.  Now I know you're a VAR. Like somehow being trained by Autodesk means that people aren't going hunting for jobs. I'm sure companies that use Autodesk products have the same turnover that everyone else does. Most people we interviewed for open positions were Autocad users.

while many larger employers have retained their workforce by upgrading from AutoCAD to MDT to Inventor And companies upgrading from Autocad to Solidworks means they won't retain their workforce?

There's nothing magical about the job statistics regarding what cad program a company uses. Job turnover is the result of employees looking for $$$, greener pastures, and employer satisfaction. Not because they use brand x-cad.




Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

I just started working for a small consulting company straight out of school last year and was put in charge of upgrading from 2D to 3D. I looked at both SW and IV and little else for 3 months and found that both programs satisfied our 3D needs. Our endproduct is 2D fabrication drawings in DWG format and ACAD was superior to DWGEditor.

I believe that both companies, in a push to parametric model the world, have left the 2D world as and afterthought. The reality is anything that gets fabricated by a human will need 2D drawings to make it, and that will not change anytime soon, and the majority of fab shops still use ACAD, although they love Isometric views on a 2D drawing. The first company to keep a live link from model to DWG will get our business and a lot of others as well.

Flue

RE: Just to let you know

Flue, I introduced my co-workers to the ASME Y14.41 standard last year, and we have had great success with machine shops that are willing to work with annotated part files. The CNC programmers love it, they can get right to work generating code, without interpreting a complex paper drawing, and our part reject rate has dropped dramatically ! Check out Y14.41 on Google, there are some excellent training facilities available. I spent half my life making traditional drawings, but this is the way of the future.

RE: Just to let you know

fluevog,

You can use ACADM to create a companion file that is directly linked to the IV file.  The feature your asking for already exists.  As to how well it works, I don't know - I always did my detailing in IV.

RE: Just to let you know

I don't see how anyone but an Inventor employee or associates can say that Inventor is 3D CAD superior in any way to SW or Pro/E. I have and do still use all 3 at times. I'm using Inventor now and like it. BUT it is a baby in the woods and still has a lot of growing to do. Surfaces haha, Mold work ..what?? You want to show part "text" in a drawing well if you do this and this ... and this.. I'm saying as long is it is simple Inventor is Good that’s as far as it goes. Don't believe me read AutoDesks articles, each time they brag about new features, that even SW has had for years.
 I say this for the person who is thinking about buying CAD, don't go with Inventor just because it is AutoDesks product. Evaluate carefully.

RE: Just to let you know

My point is that our clients need dwg files as well as hard copies so it didn't make sense to go with an inferior 2D CAD product if INV came with ACAD bundled in.

RE: Just to let you know

Why do you still DWG drawings? You can export out to dwg with entity mapping, then your "clients" can continue to sue Acad (which I assume they have already purchased).

I've done some Dwgeditor editing....it's not as polished as Autocad....but good enough to handle some legacy stuff or "tweak" exported dwgs.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

to rich942: You say "the Autodesk is .... based in America and employing an American workforce." Ask them, where is (for example) the Design Accelerators developed - it is in Decin in the Czech republic winky smile) I am sure the other parts of software are written all over the world and it means nothing about its quality. (I am UGS VAR partner winky smile))
Petr

RE: Just to let you know

Autodesk is an American based company, but they are literally worldwide.

RE: Just to let you know

You're missing the point. Autodesk is a large domestic company employing thousands, I have visited the headquarters in San Rafael, they routinely win awards for maintaining a superior workplace. They have, over the years, acquired some of the best developement partners and their products, from all over the world, and integrated them into Autodesk applications. But they do not contract current developement to third-world countries, and accept inferior workmanship, simply to cut costs. I stand by my position to oppose the outsourcing of American jobs, and will not knowingly subsidize any organization that does so. Perhaps you will feel differently when it is YOUR job that goes offshore !

RE: Just to let you know

Perhaps you would like to visit Concord, MA where Solidworks headquarters and most of the Solidworks programmers reside. Or you can pop out to Califorina where the Solidworks Cosmos FEA programmers live.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

You're still not comprehending the point of my post. Speak to someone in the software industry, and ask them why SW would release their uncompiled source code to an offshore contractor, if the programmers were only developing "add-ons and utilities".
Again, I would remind you that this is a forum for veteran Inventor users to exchange information and provide assistance to novices, not for promoting alternate CAD products.

RE: Just to let you know

R11 service pack is out.

RE: Just to let you know

Who's to say how someone got a hold of the source....or if they even had all of it. Lots of people steal things that they shouldn't have access to but manage to find a way.

I agree...this is an IV forum and I'm afraid we hijacked this poor guys thread.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

Autodesk doesn't outsource?

http://autodesk.recruitmax.com/ENG/candidates/default.cfm?szCategory=JobList&szFormat=search

Couple of programming jobs in China:

59134-Programmer/SW Engineer          Posted 05/02/2006    
Location:   Shanghai, CN - Pidemco Tower               
    
    
Design, prototype, write, test, and debug source code of AutoCAD features


Wonder if there's any Autocad source code floating around China yet?

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

Hmm..another one....Inventor related.

58642-Prog./SW Engineer          Posted 03/09/2006    
Location:   Shanghai, CN - Pidemco Tower

• The employee will be responsible for leading a group of talented software engineers to design, code, and maintain applications.

Collaborate with extended team of Inventor architects, Product Designers, tech leads and software developers in the United States and other MSD worldwide engineering sites.

Design, prototype, write, test and debug source code of Inventor applications.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

Autodesk has long maintained field offices overseas, in many different countries, this does not constitute outsourcing, when the programmers and analysts are Autodesk employees. And the Chinese shipbuilding industry has been using Inventor successfully for many years.

RE: Just to let you know

Well, that kind of contradicts your earlier statement which seemed to be your main complaint:

"Autodesk is a billion dollar company with around 3000 employees, based in America and employing an American workforce"

I think it's safe to say that both Solidworks and Autodesk have programmers over seas and in the US. Really can't be helped with the numerous aquisitions of products..some being located in other countries. And if you checkout the Solidworks Corp jobs page....most all jobs are here in the US and some programming in the UK....with some Sales support jobs in the Asian area.

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/company/careers.html

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

I stand by my statements that Solidworks is a foreign-owned organization, which outsources programming functions to India, and has had a major security breach with its source code. This has been well documented. The fact that Autodesk has employees overseas is no secret, but if you ever have the opportunity to visit their headquarters in San Rafael, as I have, you would see exactly why their products are market leaders. It is a remarkable place to work, and the software reflects this. I can only hope that in the near future, the use of non-domestic software will be discouraged or banned, for security reasons. My current employer is a privately-owned defense contractor, and has concerns about this issue.

Please do not continue to misinterpret my comments. Choose your own design software as you see fit, and leave this forum to its purpose, the exchange of information among Inventor users.

RE: Just to let you know

Foreign owned...yes....foreign based...no. An American company I used to work for was bought by a Germany company but we still operated on our own....so by that regard...we were still an american company.

Outsources some programming...more like they partenered with an Indian company to provide some add-ins. Autodesk uses foreign programmers as well. I only brought up Autodesk foreign programmers since that seemed to be a major concern of yours. With that said...it appears that Autodesk has more China programming jobs on their site that Solidworks.

A good place to work doesn't make for a superior product. And Autodesk programs, Inventor included, have just as many problems as it's competitors...maybe more so.

Don't expect to see non-domestic software to go away.....you make it sound as if foreign programmers aren't as good as US programmers. I guess you expect the US to ban Catia from Boeing and Chyrsler.....I rather doubt that Inventor is capable of doing what those companies need.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2006 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

I have been using Autodesk software and not being American, maintains that this is one of the few good things coming from the big US of A - the others are root beer, jelly beans, and Camerion Diaz.  We are a reseller doing a whole host of industrial type software and have certified application engineers not just for Inv but also ACAD, Pro-E, SW, Solid Edge, Catia, and some other obscure bits of code.

I run Inv 11 with my content centre, design acc, vault 5 and sometimes have an ACAD window open at the same time.  My laptop specs are 2 gig ram, a radeon card with 128 ram, 1.8 ghz processor and the rest is basically standard stuff.  Doing demo's - sometimes on the fly - is very brave but touch wood, i still have to crash and burn.  Have crashed it on some complex assembly making dumb mistakes like constraining to the (obviously) wrong features or iparts, but that is a human error, nothing to do with IV.

In a previous co i was a designer tasked with petroleum product used in filling stations.  I investigated a whole bunch of software, including sw and decided the migration and learning curve till we reach full productivity will be easiest with IV - that was version 9 and they are still using IV having happily upgraded to 11.

Finally, we have done comparisons on clickrates between most of the abovementioned software in a controlled experiment and Inventor kicked the c..p out of the rest having less steps to take to complete a full part, assembly and drawing - and we have used exactly the same for all the software (supplied by a customer at random).

I am extremely happy with using Inventor doing a lot of modelling - approximately 30 hours per week and the new or improved features really made me happy.  And I amtalking about the frame generator, improved lofting and projecting features to curved planes, etc...... and including Vault 5.  Enjoy yourselves.

Cheers time for a beer.

RE: Just to let you know

The fact of the matter is most large companies are using Catia and ProE, and most mid-size companies are using SW or migrating to SW.  Let's face it, may the best prevails.

RE: Just to let you know

Ratso, thank you for injecting a practical perspective into this discussion. It is user satisfaction that counts the most, after all. I do notice that the vast majority of posts on this and other Autodesk product forums involve inquiries from novice users to veterans, not complaints about the products themselves.

Also, Autodesk posted earnings of $436 million for the first quarter of this year, they must be doing something right ! As a California resident I am pleased to know that they contribute to the local economy in a positive way.

I am currently using Inventor 11 in a department that switched from Pro/E to SW about 4 years ago. My colleagues are constantly impressed by the advanced features of Inventor, and by its stability, even on modest computer hardware.

Again, I apologize to the originator of this thread, his original intent got lost in a discussion that was more political than technical. To DonBoyd, if you are still following, please do not let this discourage you from posting your inquiries about Inventor features, there are numerous expert level users here, who have provided me and others with priceless assistance.

RE: Just to let you know

AutoDesk is NOT a forward thinking company.  If SolidWorks or SolidEdge had never appeared in the market place you would still be using AutoCAD ot MDT and AutoDesk would be telling you it was cutting edge technology.

Some of AutoDesk's most noteworthy products (3DStudio, Revit, Studio Tools) aren't even theirs.  They were developed by other companies that were bought out by AutoDesk under the AutoDesk "if you can't beat em, buy em" development strategy.

AutoCAD (and it's flavors Architectual Desktop, Mechanical Desktop, Land Desktop, etc) being one of the only products AutoDesk has developed from the ground up has been lacking in 3D functionality for many years.  It was only in the lastest release that AutoCAD introduced 3D technology sketch-up has had for years.

No offense to you Rich942 but I believe your post are very narrowed minded and biased toward AutoDesk.  They are your opinions however and I respect that.  This is my opinion and I hope you can respect it.

RE: Just to let you know

rockguy, opinions are the privelege of every individual, and mine have been formed over a 22 year period, using many different CAD products, including some that have long since been forgotten (ever heard of Applicon Bravo or Prime Medusa ?). I appreciated certain features of each, but selected my application of choice based on direct comparison.

As for AutoCAD's 3D capability, I generated my very first fully parametric table-driven model in Release 11 (1989)with AME, which was also the first MS Windows compatible version of AutoCAD, years ahead of any other mid-range CAD product. It was primitive by today's standards, but the linked spreadsheet functionality was there. AutoCAD Designer (from Woodbury) predated this, but was never in wide distribution. I used Mechanical Desktop until the advent of Inventor, but most AutoCAD users found the MDT learning curve intimidating. Solidworks was easy to use after that experience, but limiting in many ways.

Many of the protocols and functions that we take for granted in most 3D modelers were introduced by Autodesk over the years. And they have often integrated the best and most successful of their development partner's products into their own lineup.

Narrow minded and biased ? Nonsense ! I make a living with these tools, nothing more to it than that, and I don't have time to waste with unstable applications.

And after all, this IS an Autodesk Inventor forum ! There's a difference between enthusiasm and "bias".

RE: Just to let you know

Thanks, rockguy ! Great video, we all enjoyed it here, SW and Inventor users alike ! Over the years, I've see many similar examples from Autodesk and other large organizations, creative people with a sense of humor about the business that they're in, we could all learn from this !

RE: Just to let you know

Hello guys,

I have been following this thread for some time now and I think you guys have gone to far. I don't use Inventor or Solidworks so there is no way I can tell which one is better and to tell you the truth, I don't care!  Being a Solid Edge user I visit the Inventor and Solidworks forums for the simple purpose of obtaining knowledge that might be of use to me and where possible will I share my knowledge.

When are we going to stop fighting over nothing and realize that we can all make this world a better place by sharing knowledge with disregard to race, religion or what software you use?

Solid Edge V18 SP5 on WinXP SP2

RE: Just to let you know

Well spoken, toffeet ! If you read my posts carefully, you will note that I do not engage in personal attacks, just observations based on 3 decades in engineering, and some comparitive facts about competitive products. I am fortunate to be in a position to choose my own CAD software, most of my co-workers are not. I suspect that many CAD software selections are made by non-engineering personnel, that is unfortunately the case here. We do have a senior scientist here who uses SolidEdge, never a complaint and he does some fine work !

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources