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Current Engineering Salaries
8

Current Engineering Salaries

Current Engineering Salaries

(OP)
Hi to all,

I am curious for those that are liscensed engineers, what is the salary like?

Is it true, skilled tradesmen earn more than an engineer?

If so, that is strange considering an engineer would more then likely be the project leader with skilled trades people reporting to them.

All comments are much appreciated

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I think you may find that train drivers, public sector employees, dustmen etc. can all earn more than an engineer, especially as they get overtime week-end rates while for the poor engineer, "it goes with the territory" (boy, am I get repetitive lately or what?) but as everyone else will tell you, if you wanted to earn megabucks you should have listened to your mum and trained as a lawyer or a dentist or something (apparently some denstists have a nice sideline selling on the gold fillings they remove and people forget to claim... the price of gold being what it is today).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

2
Be careful to whom you are comparing salaries....a long while ago, when still a youngster in the field, I recall the many trades that made more than I.  

Now as I reflect back on it, they were at the end of their career and I had a long journey ahead.  I don't think there are many in the labor trade that make more than I now without working some serious OT.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I think Qshake is correct in saying not to compare starting salaries for an engineer with those of experienced tradesmen. Additionally, look at the work that they have to do-hard physical work in many conditions. Also there is the intelectual satisfaction to consider. I took my current job in the full knowlegde that initially I would earn less than I would elsewhere, but also knowing that I would be more stimulated here than elsewhere. Also, as you gain experience and accreditation your earning potential goes up.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Which trade skill makes more than an Engineer if working the same amount of hours per week (40 hrs) on average?  

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I would GUESS that at least initially (once apprenticeships are finished) many tradesmen would make more than engineers, but not by working a 40hr week, and certainly not from working at a desk in an air conditioned environment. But while the hourly rate for a plumber/electrician will never really change that much, and when they are 50, they will still be running around building sites in all kinds of weather (unless they are lucky enough to have their own business) whereas in the same instance a chartered/licensed engineer will soon make a nice salary and have a comfortable lifestyle

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Engineers with PE typically get around 20% higher paid rate than engineer without it. Only 2% of the individual working in engineering and science field, are reported to hold a PE license. However, it is fair to say that not all engineering fields may require PE.

Below are three links with salary information for engineering. I hope this help

http://cuky2000.250free.com/Eng1.jpg
http://cuky2000.250free.com/Eng3.jpg
http://cuky2000.250free.com/Eng4.jpg

PS: Even though the enclose data is not updated and include natural statistics imprecision, this figures could provide a good idea of range, tendency and perhaps average engineering salary level according with location, specialty, number of years of experience, higher degree obtained,  etc.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Trades vs Engineer salary?

Supply vs Demand!!!

Trades up in Ft. Mac make more than many engineers (PE), including probably a goodly portion of us in this forum, because:
- HUGE labour shortage in Ft.Mac
- relatively northerly/remote location
- construction camp
- 12hr shifts, depending

If there is a shortage, rates go up. Not many ASME welder's, alloy welders around so that's a premium. We are also short millwright, I&C, electrical, heavy machine operators, truck drivers, pipe fitter, and every other trade you can think of, including cooks.

The last camp I was in, we changed cooks 3 times in 6 months - like anything else, good help is hard to find.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Ashereng,

How are non-Canadians fixed for working at the Fort? It's the kind of environment I would work well in.

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Scotty, I don't understand the question. As long as you are legal to work in the Fort, you should be good to go. Coming from the UK, I would think getting a work visa should be relatively straight forward.

You may want to begin by contacting one of the many head hunting firms specializing in obtaining personnel for the Fort.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Hi ScottyUK
Trades hiring is controlled by the craft unions. Back in the 70s, electricians with an Interprovincial Trades Qualification  ticket were good to go. Those with other tickets were given a temporary permit. I think it was 60 days. They had to pass the  local ticket within 60 days or leave. There were a lot of 59 day wonders who recycled every few months.
At the union, the first out will be the locals from Edmonton. The next tier is workers from other International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers from across Canada. After that will be "Off the street" hires where you would come in. As the weather closes in and the jobs scale down for the winter, it's last in-first out. I understand that the projection this year is that in about August, the local boys will be working and the calls will be going out across Canada. Off the street will be later in the year.
You would have no trouble challenging the exam but I think that you would be better off looking for emgineering than craft work.
A conversation overheard back in the 70's;
Cast, a startup engineer, an electrical foreman and two electricians.
Work schedule, start when the day shift goes home. Leave when the day shift arrives. Double time after 7.5 hours.
Conversation.
Electrician, "Dang, this income tax is killin me!"
Engineer, "You can't be paying that much. How much do you pay anyway?"
Electrician, "Here's my pay stub for last week."
Engineer, after looking at pay stub, "Your tax is more than my gross!"
That was 30 years ago, but I did have a chat a few weeks ago with someone conversant with the expected hiring pattern this year.
I think electricians are getting $33. Canadian. Double time after 37.5 hours per week.
Normal years ago was 5 x nine hour shifts. When the pressure is on, 9 hours Saturday, at double time. The lucky few on test and commisioning, the sky's the limit.
Back in the early 90's I was hearing peaks of $10,000 per month on a base of about 23$ per hour for the lucky few on startup crews. Pulp mill, not the oil patch.
This is a boom year. There are a lot of years when a lot of engineers will be building careers and earning more and a lot of the construction electricians will be lucky to find a job driving a Cab.
Remember the book title, "The Grass is Always Greener Over the Septic Tank".
There's a lot of good entry positions but it may not be wise to leave a steady poosition for Fort Mac.
Is that Ft. MacMurray or Ft. MacKay.
No matter, much the same and not that far apart.
respectfully

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Hi Asher,

Badly worded question on my part - sorry.

I hear MoltenMetal's endless doom & gloom about the fate of many engineers heading to Canada for work, and I was curious if foreign or migrant workers had similar difficulties up at Fort McMurray. I'm obviously not a Canadian citizen, and I'm not a registered 'PE' under the North American registration system, although I have equivalent Chartered Engineer registration in the UK. I'm not sure how that would affect working as an engineer in Canada - I know it would prove restrictive in the US until I took the PE exam. I guess being a C.Eng doesn't preclude earning an honest living as a skilled trade anyway, except for the vaguely nonsensical problem of being 'over-qualified'. I have a problem with that concept because you are either capable of doing the job, or are not. If it was a problem then I could always forget to disclose it.

I'll have a poke about on the net for recruiters - are there any hot tips you're aware of?

----------------------------------
  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

hi ScottyUK,

i can add something on the Canadain scene.

it would depend alot on the industry you going into.  The key question seems to be are you going to be in position where Joe Q Public might labour under the misapprehension that they are a registered professional engineer.  some industries, like airplane manufacture, don't require P.Eng status (and have gone through phases of discouraging it) 'cause we don't deal directly with the public, 'cause our industry is highly regulated already, 'cause the companies involved have certificates from the local professional organisations.  but most other fields (civil, structural, etc) don't have this sort of protection so (i'd expect) would require professional status.

in the interim you could probably work under the supervision of a P.Eng. whilst you get your accreditation. getting your ticket they'll probably require a bunch of exams, 'cause you probably went to a university outside of canada.  i'd contest this, citing your experience.  they'll give you a board interview (or should that be bored ?, since in my case it was very much just a process thing).

good luck

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

ScottyUK,

In Canada, the fact that you are a Chartered Engineer in the UK probably means you have a good chance of getting a PEng equivalent. May take a bit of time, not much money, but time. In Alberta (that is where Ft. McMurray and Ft. McKay are), the association is APEGGA. You can google them. Not sure if there is an oversea's toll free number but you can find out.

Meanwhile, you are free to work, once you have a work visa. Without a PEng, you can not be called and engineer, but you can do the technical work of an engineer. In most cases, the senior engineer on the job will be the final check and stamping everything in the end. I haven't used my stamp more than 2x since I got mine. Oh, you can also be paid like an engineer - just call yourself a "specialist".

With regards to the trades, the going rate for E&IC is well above the $33 waross is mentioning. I am hearing $40 and up for sure, depending on tickets. Again, since you don't have a ticket, you may not be able to work, depending on the site. Not all sites are union. CNRL is considering brining in Chinese crafts - I'm guessing they aren't ticketed journeyman in Canada. Then again, they are probably making less than everyone else.

It is Fort McMurray - where we are talking about the "hot market" stuff is going on. Fort McKay is north of Fort McMurray, and smaller.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

3
ScottyUK:  

There isn't really such a thing as being over-qualified, but there IS such a thing as being insubordinate, unsatisfied with the level of responsibility afforded to you in your job, or so distant in time from your relevant experience that it's no longer truly relevant.  As surprising as it may be to some people, a person with 5 years recent experience in the local market working for a competitor represents a lower hire risk to a potential employer than someone with 20 years experience outside the country, working in a different language etc. with zero local experience.  In my company's recent experience, the same often goes for engineers who re-train as tradesmen, draftsmen etc. versus those who chose that line of work in the first place- the latter are a better fit for the task at hand, despite the former group's superior theoretical background.  So there's a little more to it than merely whether or not (in theory) you can "do the job".

If you've got relevant petroleum industry engineering experience, can speak and write English fluently and are willing to work on contract in the Fort, you'll probably find a job.  You'll probably be out on your @ss again when the oil boom dies down again, but maybe that'll be a long time from now and there's a good buck to be made between now and then.  With an education from Great Britain, the lack of an Alberta P.Eng. license won't affect your ability to find work as an employee except perhaps as a civil/structural engineer.  It'd be a little tougher if you were educated in India or China etc.  

At the moment, lots of former PDVSA employees kicked out of their jobs by Chavez in Venezuela are moving north to take advantage of the oil sands boom.  

Unfortunately, ~55% of the economic ("skilled worker" class) immigrants to Canada continue to choose to settle in the greater Toronto area, not in Ft. McMurray.  And nobody at Citizenship and Immigration Canada seems to give a rat's hind end about whether or not people settle where the jobs are, or whether or not the skills and education of the immigrants selected meet the needs of the current labour market.  So we deport tradesmen from jobs while over-immigrating engineers relative to market demand.  Though many make the successful transition to employment as engineers, thousands more go on to mere survival jobs and disenchantment, and a great many others go back home with their reserves of hard capital depleted.  Of course, most of that risk goes away if you pre-arrange a job before you choose to come.    

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Previous three posts: thank you all for the time you've taken. I appreciate it. I'll follow up on some of the leads you have given me.

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

For engineers in Ontario Canada here is a link to a recent salary survey...

http://www.peo.on.ca/

then go to publications/salary survey (right hand)

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

ScottyUK (Electrical)
One thing to watch out for, if you are serious about going to Canada is their Immigration  points system.
 I looked into going there a couple of years ago.
   It discriminates against anybody over 50.
 I am currently 64 so they did not want me.
B.E.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Hi Berkshire,

I'm 30 behind you, so they might let me in!

----------------------------------
  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

BE, wait a few more years and that will probably change to anyone with the technical know how.

Hmmm. Immigration based on merit. That could be controversial.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Ashereng (Petroleum)
It's already happening here in the USA. My boss said to me last week " I know you are planning on retiring next year.But if you want to stick around that's ok with us too."
 The driver for this;  the company is having a hard time finding qualified people.
B.E.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Yup.

I would retire, take my fully vested pension,incorporate, and come back as a consultant, at a goodly rate.
cannon

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Ashereng (Petroleum)
Yup that's about it.
B.E.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

For Twoballcane who asked about trades making more than engineers:
It's in Friday or Saturday's edition (5-19 or 5-20) of the Wall St. Journal.  Front page article was about GM and the union workers in Lordstown, Ohio.  The union rep's daughter is 29 and a QA tech, meaning no degree.  She worked her way up on the line.  She pulls down $79K per year if I remember correctly.  I'm 2 years behind in age, work double what she does per week (meeting & exceeding my goals IMO), am halfway through an MBA, and just rec'd my industry certification.  The chances of me making $70K within the next two years is nonexistent within my locale.  And we've got a GM plant down the street.  Same thing exists.  My point is that it all depends on your industry.  Some times it's supply and demand, other times it's a union backing a company into a corner.  Although we can all see how that's finally panning out.  Kind of reminiscient of US Steel back in my hometown...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

As I recall reading somewhere, the highest paid tollbooth operator in NJ was paid in the 70K+ range (with OT of course),  The average I think was around 45K.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

The GM example is one reason I despise unions. There should be no valid reason why that person makes what she does, I seriously doubt whether the quality of her work can be valued at $79k/year. And then GM mooches off the government citing national business protection and stuff, just b/c it's easier to suckle at the government than it is to throw those lazy union bums out onto the street....
I love a good ramble in the morning.

Free market economics all the way baby, all the way, toss those neo-commies out.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Ziggi
I have to agree there

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

ziggi:  if GM can pay their unionized line workers $79k per year, why is it that they won't pay their engineers similar wages for their superior contribution to the bottom line?  Simple- engineers are too proud to unionize.  Or is it that engineers are too STUPID to unionize?  

Remember that Henry Ford paid more than the going rate for his employees, because he knew that the only way the car would really take off is if his employees could afford to buy them.  A well-paid middle class is the (eroding) foundation of the western economy.  Most businesspeople see paying their employees more than the currently established "market rate" as merely a drain on the bottom line.

Yeah, I know, unionization also often comes along with lots of bad stuff too, like the protection of the incompetent and underperformers, idiotic work differentiation, the substitution of seniority for merit etc.  But the results in dollar and cents terms are clear- unionized employees continue to earn more than those negotiating in isolation.  Frankly, though I wouldn't be happy to work for a unionized employer for the reasons I've listed, I'm delighted that others ARE willing to do so.  They raise the competitive salary bar for the rest of us who have more pride than brains.

There's strength in numbers.  A business or corporation is a collective entity- an organized group of shareholders, management etc. with the single goal of maximizing retained shareholder value.  An individual employee negotiating salary, benefits or working conditions with a collective business entity has very little power- in fact they have no power beyond their willingness to leave and find another job.  And even that power evaporates to a great degree when the other side of the negotiation can and DOES manipulate the labour market to ensure you will have lots of competition for your next job should you choose to leave.  

An organized group of employees negotiating with the same business entity has much greater power, and hence can command much greater respect from the organization in the only terms it truly values:  dollars and cents which impact the bottom line.  That too is the free market at work.  

Why is it that for some people, the only definition of a "free market" they will accept is one in which corporations have all the power and employees have to negotiate from a position of weakness?  That's hardly a "free market"!

As to corporate welfare, we agree completely.  If we could find a way to ensure that government only collects revenue from private enterprises and never provides them with any subsidy beyond providing infrastructure of truly public benefit (roads etc.), that would make me happy.  But until there's a world law against governments subsidizing businesses of any kind, whether that be farmers or car manufacturers, what you end up with is governments in each country running a numbers game.  What nets the government more tax revenue:  to let a poorly-run business fail or relocate to a country with more favourable taxes, or to pay the subsidy?  If they choose to let the business go down, they'll lose 100% of the corporate tax revenue PLUS the income tax revenue from the employees let go when the business goes bankrupt, PLUS pay-outs for unemployment insurance and welfare for the fraction who never find another job.  Whereas while they pay the subsidy, they merely reduce the net amount of tax collected from all those sources.  Who wins when the governments end up in subsidy bidding wars with one another?  

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

What makes you think GM generally pays its engineers less than 79k?

One of its competitors in the same town pays fresh grads 65-71k, and experienced engineers up to about 110k, and tech specs get, well, whatever they can negotiate, with the same grade structures as management.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Quote:

What nets the government more tax revenue:  to let a poorly-run business fail or relocate to a country with more favourable taxes, or to pay the subsidy?  If they choose to let the business go down, they'll lose 100% of the corporate tax revenue PLUS the income tax revenue from the employees let go when the business goes bankrupt, PLUS pay-outs for unemployment insurance and welfare for the fraction who never find another job.

A series of facts which was entirely lost on the Thatcher government of the 1980's. I doubt the UK will ever recover from the damage those misguided fools caused to our economy.

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Greg:  yeah, I realize that engineers in the US auto sector make more than $79k per year.  But kids of about the same age, on the line without a degree and as engineers with a degree, are making pretty much the same money- that makes you wonder a bit.  Of course the engineers would also have the "benefit" of working O/T for free.  As the pointy-haired boss in the Dilbert cartoon says, "That's just how we like 'em:  bright, but clueless!"  

The engineers' salaries you've listed aren't all that out of line with the market value for engineers in industry.  But the lineworker's salary IS out of line with respect to what lineworkers in most non-unionized industries can make, except for the workers at facilities like Honda and Toyota who keep their salaries in line with the union pay to keep the unions out.  Even non-unionized tradesmen can't command the salaries these lineworkers command with nothing beyond high school.    

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

molten,
my point is that unions artificially affect the workings of the free market, therefore the union worker benefits from his/her arrangement while the rest of the non-union workers in that area suffer. Under a correct free market system, the lineworkers should only be making more money than the engineers if a scarcity of lineworkers exists.

However I do agree that a union is a great way for the little guy to stand up against the big company to maintain the balance.

As for allowing corporations to go down....good point, I assume they're not stupid enough to give them that money without plenty of conditions...then again.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

"But kids of about the same age, on the line without a degree and as engineers with a degree, are making pretty much the same money- that makes you wonder a bit."

What's the hard bit? a lineworker contributes directly to the bottom line. A straight from uni engineer is, for the most part, a net drain on company resources. Sure after three or four years he's likely to be a big contributor, that's why 28 year old engineers are in demand, a lot of the expensive real life training has been done.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

ziggi:  

Businesses collude to interfere with the so-called "free market" all the time.  They lobby governments to fund more post-secondary education and to allow more imimgration to increase the supply of "skilled labour", all in an effort to reduce their labour costs and increase their labour "flexibility".  They extort subsidies and tax breaks from governments, threatening to relocate to "lower cost" markets if they don't comply.  They fund collective organizations like industry associations as well as politically-motivated lobby groups, who are very effective at "educating" the public through the media about their concerns (i.e. so that the public will be more receptive when governments do what they are told).

Why then should groups of employees not band together to enter into this same market equation from a position of power, rather than one of isolation and weakness?

The so-called "free and fair market" is neither.

As to your assertion that non-unionized workers suffer as a result of the benefits gained by unionized workers, the converse is actually true.  The compensation levels and working conditions commanded by unionized workers benefit everybody because they alter the competitive marketplace for the benefit of all workers, whether unionized or not.

Greg:  it's obvious that the 29 year-old non-degreed "quality inspector" is worth $79k US to GM, as amazing as that may be to those of us not in the auto sector.  It's also clear that an engineering grad with 4 years of university education plus 4 yrs of work experience is only worth ~ $79k US to GM given GM's "valuation" of that engineer's services.  The kid has four years in the "school of hard knocks" and should be a major contributor, but they're just breaking even with somebody who has been on the line for nine (and mastered the job after what, a year?).  I'd argue that the difference is clearly the effect of unionization on the part of the line workers, such that they can command a greater proportion of the company's revenue than the engineers can, negotiating in isolation.

I'm not arguing that the line worker deserves less- I'm arguing that the engineer deserves more!

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

My understanding of the way in which unionised labour works is that you get pay increases on the basis of time served in a position. I have seen situations in my country in which the annual salary of a technician/operator is in fact more than that of the plant manager as a result of the benchmarking and overtime etc that the unions organise for their employees.
This is an utterly ludicrous situation, but thats the way it is? How to address it? Any ideas?
From what moltenmetal says above, one could be forgiven for contemplating the requirement for an engineers union to protect our own interests.....

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Don't sign such a ludacris contract with the union in the first place.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

A union is the worker's management team.

In business, if you don't like a proposal, you either change the terms until you are okay with it, or walk away.

When a company signs a contract with a union, it is in essence saying we are okay with it.

If the terms are so bad, the company always has the option of walking away.

For example. Walmart walked away from the province of Quebec when their store there unionised.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

moltenmetal

Sad to say that whilst it may once have been true, and there may still be figures that support it I'm not so sure what you said is true.

"But the results in dollar and cents terms are clear- unionized employees continue to earn more than those negotiating in isolation"

After I first came to the US I couldn't get a job in engineering, I ended up working retail.  I got significantly higher pay working at a non union store than at a union one, especially when you consider what I paid in union dues.  Unions are great if you've been there forever and grand fathered in to the good benefits they had back in the day.  However, for new members some of them really don't offer much (low pay, no benefits for the first year even tho' you're paying the same dues as people receiving benefits etc.)

In principle I used to think unions were a good idea, protecting employees from unscrupulous employers, even though I knew they had problems.  Having now worked for a union I'm not so sure that the union leaders aren't taking just as much advantage.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

KENAT:  my own wife has seen first-hand the bad side of modern union behaviour too.  She worked in an industry controlled by a union which acted in restraint of trade.  Whereas most unions merely require that you be an employee of a unionized employer, sign up and pay the dues, this particular union restricted membership by means of a "vote-in" system (i.e. you basically had to be a relative of preferably more than one person in the union to obtain enough "votes" to gain membership!)  She worked as a "permitee" (a non-unionized employee permitted to work in a position because the union didn't have enough staff available at the time), but was "bumped" out of the job after eight months by a union member who didn't have even the basic skills required for the job in question.  The employer had no say in this whatsoever, according to the terms of the contract they'd negotiated with the union.

Unions do offer employees access to "strength in numbers" and the ability to negotiate with management from a position of power.  In general terms, unionized employees command higher salaries than those offered by the average non-unionized employer- though there are certainly exceptions.  Unions also tend to value and reward employees on the basis of seniority rather than productivity or competence, and to boggle the employers' mind with bizarre "work differentiation" rules designed to protect the turf of each union working on a mixed worksite.  They also cost money to run, and like all human institutions, they can be corrupted.

Again, I'm glad they exist, but choose to work outside the unionized system.  That way I get the benefit of the existence of unions without the personal downside.  Not all employers are greedy b@stards whose only interest is profit- the trick is to find yourself one of these who actually has a business model which works and won't be killed by some bottom-feeder in a few years.  Or to create such a business for yourself.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Unions?  I really don't understand how they interact with professional engineers.  At what point in your career do you switch from non-management to management?  In my experience it happens gradually, there's no point where you suddenly switch from employee to employer.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

For a professional engineer, the professional bodies for the respective disciplines could collectively do much more to represent the interests of their members. Perhaps if the IEE, IMechE, ICE weren't such lame ducks there would be less talk of unions among UK engineers? My professional body, the IEE (or as they have now styled it, the IET), does little for me except publish some interesting journals and provide a useful source of job adverts, and allow me a route to professional registration. It does little to promote among engineers the professional recognition accorded to the medical and legal professions, or if it is does do anything then has succeeded only in failing for the period I have been a member.

In the absence of a professional body to represent me I consider membership of a union from time to time, but shy away from the militant ones. Progress is best made through dialog, not picket lines.

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Scotty

Interesting to see that its not just my Institution (ICE) that appears useless, and the members of the other institutions are equally disgruntled.  I too get some journals and job adverts but thats about it for my 210 quid annual subs.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

You do not want to get me started on 'The IET'! Enough to say that recent events are a disgrace and those responsible should be utterly ashamed of their recent 'victory' in pushing through the merger with the IIE. The merger serves only to weaken the status of the professional engineer by further blurring the line between engineer and technician.
A merger amongst peers IEE/IMechE/ICE, maybe IChemE too, would probably had my support, but... I said not to get me started!!

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

The doctors in Canada have this one figured out.  They have a union but don't call it one.  It negotiates on their behalf with their de-facto employer, the provincial medical insurance program.  And it's startlingly successful at  limiting supply, retaining complete control over licensure to ensure competence, creating an artificial shortage and commanding excellent salaries as a consequence!

We engineers no longer understand the real meaning and intent of belonging to a self-regulating profession.  We accept career-terminating responsibility for our professional activities, and agree to be bound by a code of ethical conduct.  We also agree to police our own members and regulate our own licensure process to maintain competence, entirely at our own cost.  We do these things for protection of the public, because society acknowledges that nobody other than another professional engineer is qualified to judge the professional practice of another professional engineer.  

IN RETURN, we are to be granted exclusive right to practice in a particular area by virtue of our license, plus CONTROL over access to that license!  

We've failed at this task, and hence we command salaries no better and in a great many cases POORER than those commanded by non-professionals who agree to and pay for NONE of these public protection measures!

The saddest part in all of this is that by acting as prima-donnas too noble to make our licensure system work for our OWN benefit, we've also put the public at risk by defeating the entire function of licensure in the first place!

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

The engineering boards do not serve engineers - they serve the public. Hence, they have the public's interest first, not ours.

If engineers want a "engineering society" that serves engineers, then we need to start one.

I heard someone mention that Ontarion started one - but he didn't say how effective it is.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I would 2nd (or 3rd) the sentiments of both ScottyUK (Electrical)& Ussuri (Civil/Environme. I am a member of the IEI and the IChemE and again, I feel I get very little other that journals and job adverts.

I agree with what moltenmetal (Chemical) had to say.

I wonder how difficult it would be to have an "engineering society" that serves engineers (a la Ashereng (Petroleum)) but one thing that I think would be useful would a society that trancends national boundaries. Im speaking here particularly between EU, UK and US. I know in the EU we have EurEng and the CEng but that there is a limited amount of transferability to the US, even though the schools from which we graduated are recognised there.

I think a society like this would go some way to addressing scenarios like having engineers (often highly qualified)working in low paid, menial jobs in countries where they move to.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

So, what do you want this society to do?

Which of the following is good, bad or indifferent?

1) Technical dissemination (eg SAE papers)

2) Develop national or international standards (eg IEE)

3) Training courses in new technologies

4) Lobbying governments to get legal protection for engineer as a term, and then smite the unworthy.

5) Checking that you have done your PDH every year

6) Lobbying universities to control the supply of new graduates

7) Printing nice magazines

8) Encouraging local branches

9) Having a club-like HQ in London mere minutes from the centre of town. Must be a nice place to work...

10) Assess and control the flow from EITs (or equivalent) into fully fledged engineer status.

11) Ensure parity of qualifications and reciprocity worldwide.

add some more - need to give employers a hard time as well.

Oddly the only magazine I want from the IMechE, they won't give me. If you think that I strongly resent this then you'd be absolutely right.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

All of the above sounds good to me. I think this is a topic that could be debated for a long time. I think every contributor to this thread has more or less agreed that engineers are under appreciated and under compensated (generally speaking) for our contribution to industry. I also think that the ideal society would be more pro-active and vocal in informing the general public regarding issues such as alternatives to fossil fuels and other topical/controversial issues that would come under our areas of expertise.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Well actually I am a nasty old free market capitalist, and I strongly suspect that on average engineers are paid about right. If we could artificially create a cartel then our wages would rise.

Incidentally I'd regard at least half of that list I put up as irrelevant or worse.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Who isn't a "free market capitalist". The problem is that we do not in general work in a "free market". As long as there are unions, this debate will exist. I would not say that it should be requisate that an engineer should be a member of the above society, I think that it could be good if they were......

1) Technical dissemination (eg SAE papers) GOOD

2) Develop national or international standards (eg IEE)GOOD

3) Training courses in new technologies GOOD (NOT COMPULSORY)

4) Lobbying governments to get legal protection for engineer as a term, and then smite the unworthy. NOT A BAD IDEA

5) Checking that you have done your PDH every year PDH?? IS THIS LIKE CPD (continuing professional development)

6) Lobbying universities to control the supply of new graduates NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HERE

7) Printing nice magazines USEFUL, PARTICULARLY IF THERE ARE GOOD ARTICLES IN THEM AND LOTS OF JOB ADVERTS

8) Encouraging local branches AGAIN NOT ESSENTIAL, BUT A NICE IDEA

9) Having a club-like HQ in London mere minutes from the centre of town. Must be a nice place to work... IRRELEVENT

10) Assess and control the flow from EITs (or equivalent) into fully fledged engineer status. EIT? SOME KIND OF TECHNICIAN? PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA IF SO

11) Ensure parity of qualifications and reciprocity worldwide. GOOD IDEA, I STRONGLY ADVOCATE THIS, WITH A VIEW TO INCREASING MOBILITY

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Ashereng,

It was I who mentioned the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers (www.ospe.on.ca), an advocacy group ostensibly promoting the virtues and benefits of engineers to the public at large.  I did not mention the effectiveness of the group as I am no longer a member.  I am no longer a member because for the first couple of years, the only thing they promoted was cheaper home and auto insurance as a benefit of being a member of their organization.  This struck a nerve with me as being somewhat unprofessional so I did not renew my membership.  I would have preferred the approach to be, "Here's what we are doing to promote the engineering profession", rather than the "Here's what we can do for you."

I still check in on their website from time to time to see if they have made any progress.  Perhaps I'm too cynical, but the impression I get is that there is a lot of talk but not much action.  Maybe the organization will grow with time; it is less than ten years old.  However, for now I will sit back and watch.

Cheers,
CanuckMiner, P.Eng.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

So, another association that takes in money, but returns very little.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

To just keep sturring the muck on the union vs non-union debate I offer the following points.

With some background research and the book "Good to Great" by Jim Colins unions killed the steel manufature industry in the US. Compair and contrast Bethlahelm Steel and Nucore Steel. Then apply compeditive pressure from Nippon Steel. My conclusion is that unions added no value to the steel manufacturing process, and because of that Japan was able to do bussiness-dumping with Nippon Steel. Therefore Nippon Steel take out the vast majority of that industry in the US.

Also, when looking at unions lets look at the two largest and most influencial in the US, the Teachers Union and the Dock Worker Union. In my mind these are nothing more than glorified political bodies that are border line pure government corruption.

As a recent graduate I choose engineering because there was no union. And to finish this rant post against unions Gen. MacArther said, "Your only security is the ability to preform."

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Man, I hope you check your calculations more carefully than your speling.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

And, there is an engineers union.  It's a component of the machinist union and present at Boeing.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

2
I spent the last ten years in the manufacturing industry as an electrical engineer.  In my region, manufacturing has been declining, making it difficult to find stable employment.  I thought that if I got my PE license, it would be easier to find work, but that hasn't been true, mostly because the license is irrelevant in industry.  I wanted to switch fields and work in the construction industries, but lacked experience.  Last year, I became an apprentice with the IBEW, the electrical workers union.  What I found is that the work is very rewarding, although, of course, somewhat difficult.  The people are hardworking, and very knowledgable about their trade, both with the hard skills, and the issues that surround the building industry.

The union dues aren't that significant, considering the exorbitant fees I had been paying my national society, my state board, and my technical society.  What I gain is an organization that actually understands its members.  The IBEW knows that its future is tied to the financial stability of the various electrical contractors.  They don't go on strike, they have a pension plan, and they are able to offer me a future without worrying about offshoring.  The state licensing of electricians in my area is enforced much more stringently than it is with engineers, which certainly helps their future.

My pay rate isn't yet what I had been making as an engineer; I am still an apprentice.  However, I know that I have a much better future now thanks to the union.  I certainly wish all engineers the best, but for me the future was bleak: outsourcing, company closings, age discrimination, an irrelevant licensing system, and obsolete engineering organizations all added up to a profession that never failed to let me down.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Quote:

Man, I hope you check your calculations more carefully than your speling.

You too!

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  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Oh Scotty, some days it is just like shooting fish in a barrel.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Current Engineering Salaries

What about refinery operators? They get paid $27/Hr. plus overtime and bonuses. Not to mention great benefits-and their job isn't really that difficult. They just have to work shift hours for a large part of their career.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

(OP)
DonMcC, thanks a million for your post.  I often have debated whether to pursue a skilled trade or an engineering degree.

I feel the work of an engineer would be more interesting but other factors, like the ones you mention always has kept me inclined to stay away from engineering.

I currently work for a manufacturing company and have been attending school while i work.

I really don't wish to spend the rest of my working days on the production line so I thought of doing something to better my career chances.

Engineering was something I choose as my company supports it.  However, I will graduate when I am 34 years old and feel this could be an issue.

What is your take on it Don, I mean in your post you mentioned age discrimination.

Thanks to all for their responses

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I graduated at 39, took 18 months to find a job (affected everyone, not just me, an industry downturn in 1994), and have not regreted it once.  I've over doubled my original salary, have a PE, working on my MS (company paid, winky smile ) and have yet to experience the "age factor" even though I've changed jobs 4 times in 11 years.

I don't think age is as relevant as experience and I'll bet you have gobs.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

I would only choose to live and work in a big city like toronto. I worked few years in small towns and regardless of money IT IS NOT WORTH IT.......

Plenty of reasons why not:
have to relocate again when the job finishes
no options to seek another job so pay value diminishes
limited options for services, shopping cultural stimulus, poor education for kids
high cost of travel in and out
limited professional development


I hated after the first 6 months, and nver again....

The migrants have a good reason to stay in Toronto...They are not stupid......

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

Southbeach--

Don't let the age at graduation bother you a bit.  When you graduate, you'll have a degree AND some experience in the real world.  A good employer will recognize that as a plus.  In my opinion, you will be a better engineer because of it, as opposed to young graduate engineers who have no field experience at all.

old field guy

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

opsops:  sure- there are plenty of opportunities and benefits to living in Toronto as you've mentioned.  The problem is, over eight thousand new migrant engineers land there yearly.  If you choose to go there, don't cry if you don't find an engineering job and end up driving a taxi.  Then again, perhaps that's a benefit to add to your list- lots of people needing taxi drivers!

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

no worries mate, I have no plans to go or work in Canada. I traveled extensively with my work and h've seen all almost first hand.


No thank you

I am happy with what I do and where I do it. I made myself privileged to choose what I do, for whom and whom I am hiring.


Cheers

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

opsops:  glad to hear you're happy where you are.  Keep hiring whatever engineers you find who can do the job for you to your satisfaction, and I'll do the same.  And I'll keep warning people to open their eyes and look at the real situation before they choose to immigrate here to Canada to work as engineers.  By doing so I hope to avert some suffering on their part which might result from mis-information or false hope.  If they choose to come, they're welcome- the country offers an opportunity, rather than certainty.

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

well said my friend

RE: Current Engineering Salaries

While earning my B.S.M.E I worked for a well known American co. that had a strong leveraged union. Any negative stereotypes you've heard about unions would be validated by this company's employees. Yes that's a blanket generalization,there were exceptions ~1%! At first I thought it was the best job, $25/hr, paid morning,lunch, and afternoon breaks, the whole 9 yards. Just for feeding a machine all day. Well that got boring, miserable and depressing, at least for me awefully quick. I spent most of my time looking at the clock wondering when I could go home. So to iterate what was mentioned in earlier posts, after graduation I didn't care that I could make the same amount of money at a union shop than I could as a green engineer. Because at the end of the day you cant put a price on the feeling of accomplishment, and learning new things daily. Although I must admit I still do often look at the bottom,right corner of the screen to check the time, but that's cause I'm trying not to let the day pass me.

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