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Take a day off after attending a conference
5

Take a day off after attending a conference

Take a day off after attending a conference

(OP)
I was supposed to do market research in a particular field and attend any conferences related to that field. After good research found that a conference was held in Very-Nice city. Got permission from the manager to attend it.

Later I thought, going so far anyways, why not take the friday off and go sight seeing over the weekend in this Very-Nice city (ofcourse, spending from my own pocket). Got permission to take a day off. But when I said that I was going to spend the day in Very-Nice city, he said that it could be unethical and would need the VP's permission!

Respected professionals, please help me as I am a budding engineer and want to be in the ethically strong group. I am thinking very hard to see how my situation could be unethical. Could anyone please shed some light.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I've done this twice before with employer's blessing.  I paid my own way for my days off.  My employer adjusted the air travel itinerary accordingly.  No extra cost incurred on part of my employer.

I don't see what's unethical about it.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

There is nothing wrong with your spending extra time in a city on the companies airfare.  My company has no problem with employees spending personal time on trips as long as the extra expenses are on the employee and not the company.  My company also allows spouses to travel if the employee pays the extra cost.  My company management see that as a little extra perk that costs them nothing extra, so why should they care?

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I don't see anything remotely unethical about that, provided that any expenses (hotel, meals, etc.) that you incur on your own time are paid for by you.

I suspect the manager is more worried about the perception among others at the company that you are getting a company-paid mini-vacation, and he would rather the VP have to answer the question should it come up.

This kind of stuff happens all the time at conferences.  Just about anyone will take advantage of free airfare to visit a new city for the cost of an extra night's hotel stay.  Nothing wrong with it at all.

Dean

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Don't forget to close out the rental car charges and put the car onto your own expenses at the end of the conference.  Note that your company's travel insurance might not cover you on your own time.

TTFN



RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

And some times you can lucky enough that the airfare for the longer stay is less than for the sorter stay by a significant amount.  I went to Washington DC for some meetings last summer and found that flying in on Saturday was about $200 less than flying in on Sunday.  So I had a day to see the sights and the company saved money.  What's not to like?

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

That's true davidbeach.  I went to NYC for a week and was planning to come home on Friday.  It was $700 cheaper to come home on Sunday, so I spent the weekend there.  Company picked up the expenses because they were still saving money and they're the ones who suggested I stay.  

I also had my company fly me back through Italy on my way home from Thailand so I could meet my wife/ kids for vacation.  They didn't have a problem with it and I even managed to save them $1k over the "normal" airfare.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I work for a government agency, which is pretty fussy about ethics (so for example, at my next conference I won't be able to go with all the other boys and girls to a corporate-sponsored ballgame).  But I combine work with vacation all the time--and in fact our travel regulations address the case of renting a car that would be used on some days for work and on some days for personal use.

Getting travel expenses paid to a one-day conference and taking a week's vacation might raise some eyebrows.  Going to a few days of conference and sticking around for an extra day should be no problem whatsoever.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

As long as you're footing the bill for the mini-vacation - and that includes using one of your vacation/paid-time-off days, then there's nothing unethical about it.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

so...

Go to the VP and get the permission.  Chances are VP will get a chuckle at your boss's expense.  I'm sure he/she has done the same thing before as well.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I think the concern is the liability to the company during your "vacation" day. For example, what if you got hurt? Is that on "company time" or your "off work" time? That can be tricky in a situation like a conference. At a major company that I worked at, the entire time I was at the conference, I was covered under the company's policy as actively working - even when going to a movie after the conference. Because they sent me there, I was covered, until they got me back.

However, this is not an ethics issue - it is an issue of who pays in regards to insurance, liability, etc.

If this is not the issue, then I agree, there are no problems. Close our your rental the one you are using during your working conference, and rent one just for you for your vacation. Your air fare should be covered, but you should need to pay separate for food and lodging, etc.

Then again, maybe your boss interpreted your request as a "paid vacation"? In which case, he will need the VP to okay something like that. That would be sweet!

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference


I don't think it's at all unethical!  Staying over a Saturday night usually results in less airfare which can more than cover the additional hotel and car.  If you cover charges above and beyond what the company was going to pay, then no problem whatsoever.  Your bosses are unenlightened tightwads!

When I was an employer, I used to pay for 1 or 2 additional hotel days and car rental for employees who wanted to stay and see the sights.  It made for happier people.  I saw it as a trade off for taking people away from thier homes, hobbies and family.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

2
I think HgTx got near the mark. There is an actual benefit to the employee derived from using company resources.

Also

For instance, supposing an employee has a choice between going to the BEST conference work wise, in Scum City, or a vaguely relevant conference, in Nice Place.

Does the employee talk up the benefits of vaguely relevant conference?


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

One other potential benefit I've frequently found is that a full week on a rental car can be less expensive than 5 days, and have found that adding the full-week rate, the over-Saturday air fare, and the odd hotel discount that if I paid for my own meals on the extra days the company saved money by my going to see Micky since I was already in the neighorhood.

David

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I don't see any ethics issues as long as you stay ethical. Not directed at you, but I am so sick of the things that are supposed to make engineers more professional (ie, our code of ethics) actually holding us back from enjoying life and work a little.

Would a salesman or marketing guy get second-guessed for it? Heck with that. Enough badgering engineers for enjoying a little perk. Enough double standard BS.

Ed

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

If management has a problem with it, do it at your own risk. If management has a more enlightened attitude, enjoy.
It is probably best to ask in any case. If the company policy is not clear and you take a day extra without full disclosure and permission it may be amunition for office politics.
respectfully

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

(OP)
Thank you all..

To Greg Locock posting, I wanted to go to the one in Scum-City, but that one got cancelled. So it was my manager who suggested me to go to the Nice-City.

I was actually thinking of returning the car/ signing out of hotel and starting off with new set of hotel/ cars just to stay clean and clear. Just the air tickets would be company's....

He is a good guy, my Manager. Dont know why he used "unthecial". I just got a little shocked and hurt when he said that, as I would not let anything remotely unethical come to my mind. I will probably let it go and let him win. I will stay clear from being noted as the "person who wanted a day-off at Nice City" peace

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Please reconsider.  

Some of my most memorable adventures occurred on side trips.  These are oppportunities should not be missed.  

TTFN



RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Hang on, I don't want to sound like Mr Goodie Two Shoes here, I bend the company regs like any other human being. I was just suggesting WHY your manager might have raised a metaphorical eyebrow.

Learning to manage your manager is an important skill.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Good last post Greg.

I have found that the best way to get what you want is for management to want you to do it for their own reasons and most conferences are organised with just that in mind.
Take a look at the timings.

The trick is to look like you don't want to be there a moment longer than necessary and by making a few delays which take you into the "late booking" zone when regular airfares look enormous compared to the "weekend stopovers". His big concern then is if you want to have time off in lieu for the "weekend away on business".

Saying "Gee, can I stay an extra day and take it out of my holiday" is asking for trouble and costs; they'll have an FBI forensic finance team examine your expenses.

I have spent many memorable weekends in St Petersburg, Moscow, Houston (yes, Houston, it ain't home) Copenhagen, Talin etc etc. simply because of the Hotel deals that consider a Friday as part of the weekend and you get the whole week for a much lower rate.
Staying into the weekend can "save the company enough money" that they'll pay for anything within reason including entry tickets to the Space Centre, guided tours of the Aurora, a visit to Pravda's offices or Mickey's place... this is where time-off-in-lieu queries come in handy (you'll get the "it goes with the territory" speech, but it keeps them honest).

The downside is occassionaly having to go somewhere you'd rather not for longer than you want.

Some general rules:
If attending a conference in a ski resort either don't go yourself or do take the wife, whatever it costs you (travel... hotels usually have double occupancy for the same price).
One guy I know told his wife she couldn't come and he wasn't going skiing because he had too much to do.
She wasn't happy.
Day two and he got bored, went skiing and broke a leg. He had to leave the car, fly back and she wouldn't meet him at the airport. When he got home, the locks were changed.

Take care how you inform the wife if you get delayed. I was glad to have a large continent and a big ocean between myself and the significant other when I rang to explain a travel delay. One colleague e-mailed his wife from the airport... safe, but we never heard the delayed reaction outcome.
My other colleague finally phoned his wife from reception at the hotel in Minneapolis St Paul, where we finally arrived at 11:30pm.
Unfortunately just as he was explaining that we had been delayed by weather, a hen party let out from the bar ... she could hear the "loud girly squeals" over the phone and we could all hear the click as she hung up on him.

Always make sure your boss knows/remembers who is doing who a favour. Learn to act unhappy about not being at home with the wife over the weekend (to her and to your boss, but don't overdo it, the boss might cancel and the wife might want to come).

Before feeling too guilty, take a look at how many of the management manage to get to some fancy confernces with their wives or take business trips to exotic places and delegate the armpit trips to subordinates.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

There's no coincidence that conferences are usually scheduled in Very Nice City as opposed to Very Bad City....That "extra" tourism is not only condoned by most employers, but somewhat expected, locally.  Often families are brought along for that very reason.  

Being a resident of a tourism heavy state and having one city in particular with major theme parks, you can see why their convention center is also one of the largest in the country.

As long as your employer is aware and you are footing the bill for the extras, there should be no other consideration necessary.  In my opinion it has no ethical implication.  The act of allowing the extra day or so on such a trip is often considered by employers as being a little extra compensation for being away from home and is a good morale booster.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

JMW, I actually had one trip where the boss sent my wife.

He cancelled my vacation to send me to Europe for a meeting. In exchange, he paid for my wife to stay with me in Holland. When the meeting was over, the wife and I hopped the train to Paris for 4 days.

The train and Paris were on me. The flights, Holland, and time at DeGaulle waiting for flight were on him.

It was a nice trade-off.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Ron, the only conferences I get invited to are in Melbourne (big deal), Birmingham UK, and Detroit.

Is somebody trying to tell me something?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

ditto, well, similar.  

How come engineers don't get conferences in Vail DURING ski season?

TTFN



RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Very Nice City has a LOT of hotel rooms, if they can fill them during slow times (like summer in Vail or Park City) then the bottom line for the hotel looks better and better.  It will be the rare big-draw confrence scheduled during the high season in any particular Very Nice City--they'll shoot of summer in Vail, hurricane season in Florida, Fall in Las Vegas, etc.

David

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I understand the part about off-season.  

My point is that my wife, the doctor, gets conference announcements for Vail, DURING ski season, and the conference sessions are timed to allow people to ski in the afternoon, or some such.

TTFN



RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Greg,

No nice conferences?  I would have thought you might go to Traverse City for the biennial golf tournament that mascarades as the NVH convference.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Greg...You've obviously ticked off too many people!

You're always welcome in Sunny Florida....next time you get invited to Detroit, tell them Orlando has to be included.

Ron

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

'I will stay clear from being noted as the "person who wanted a day-off at Nice City"'

Why?  What normal person wouldn't want a day off in Nice City?  It's on your time, you're covering the cost of the hotel & meals, and if you're on a vacation day, the company shouldn't be liable insurancewise.

Especially since it was your manager who sent you to Nice City to begin with; no one can possibly accuse you of going to the conference just to get your vacation travel expenses paid.

Hg

p.s.  I must be looking at different airfares than the rest of the world, because I haven't seen different prices for a Saturday night stay in years, let alone a difference big enough to make up for an extra day of hotel.  Maybe that's mostly for Business Class?


Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Hg, I don't know if it is an explicit Saturday night stay anymore or not, but airfares vary day to day.  In my case cited above, it could just be that there is more traffic into DC on Sunday than there is on Saturday, so the airlines can push fares up on Sunday, and pull them down on Saturday to shift some of the traffic from the peak day to the off peak day.  Any given route there will be lower and higher traffic days and the fares will fall and raise correspondingly.  Sometimes the savings is to go a day or two early, other times it would be to stay a day or two longer; but in either case it can pay to check airfares for multiple travel days.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

The work-related conference you are attending starts on Monday morning.  You have to fly cross-country to attend.  Do you fly during work hours on Friday? On your own time Saturday or Sunday?

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Nothing unethical about this as long as you pay the extras yourself.
And while you're at it, out of curiosity, just ask your VP where his board meetings are held. You'd be surprised.

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

Air fares?
use any of the online "cheap flights" seaech engines that do a "(+/-) "x" days" search and look at the varition in fares....
Note that it is sometimes cheaper to fly overseas than internally.
One guy found that by booking a connecting flight that stopped at his home town and just not completing the follow on leg he got his tickets cheaper than booking a flight to his home town.
Airlines have some very imaginative (incomprehensible) pricing policies - exploit them.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Take a day off after attending a conference

I have done my best sightseeing during business trips. I usually scheduled them at the end of the week, returned on Sat evening, and enjoyed experiences not possible otherwise. At the time there was an air fare break for return travel on Sat.

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